Saddle shapes

raymond82

Because of too much pressure on my perineum I'm looking for a new saddle. I am a bit puzzled however by the meaning of all the theory (and marketing) of the different saddles.

Roughly, I think there's a choice between flat saddles, flat saddles with a cutout and saddles with a kick at the rear. According to the fizik method, based on the fact that I'm very inflexible, I would need an aliante saddle which has a kick at the rear. What I don't understand is how this relates to pelvic rotation, because my perineum hurts mainly when the pelvis is rotated forward.

Selle Italia uses a different system where a large cutout is advised for people with high pelvic rotation but the saddles are very flat. I tried the Selle Italia Superflow today, which has a large cutout and I really liked the shape of the saddle (flat) but I still had more pressure on my perineum than I like. Of course I can keep buying and trying saddles but I would like to know a bit more about the shapes to make a more educated guess when I try the next. Hopefully you can help me!

bahzob

You haven't mentioned whether or not you have had a proper bike fit.

If you have np. If you haven't then you are wasting your time and money trying out different saddles, since chances are its not the saddle that is the problem. If your position is wrong then your weight may well be in the wrong place and this will cause issues. Even small margins of a cm here or there can result in discomfort. The most typical mistake is to set the saddle too low in the mistaken belief that you sit on it as you would a chair with it taking most of your weight.

If you have had a bike fit then one different option would be an Adamo. They are specifically designed to relieve all pressure from the perineum. I got one for TT after suffering big time on a 100 and it is fantastic for that purpose, I've done 100s and 12 hours with no pain at all. It can also be used in normal riding, I do all my indoor training on one and have done 4 hour non-stop sessions comfortably. That said I know it does not work for everyone, another couple in my club use them but one chap tried one and couldn't get on with it. If you try one you do need to make sure it's set up correctly and give it a couple of weeks to get used to, since it's quite different from a normal saddle.

dw300

You can be riding the perfect saddle for you, and have it at the wrong height or angle and it'll feel terrible. Equally, you could have it set right, but if its too wide, then you'll slide forward to a narrower part where there is less pressure support for your sit bones and more pressure on your delicate bits.

You might also be sitting too far forward on the saddle to get into a position nearer your bottom bracket because your saddle is too high and the forward part reduces the distance to the pedals.

Alternatively you may have too much forward tilt and gravity is making you slide forward.

Get all this sorted first and then narrow down the saddle type. You are understanding the Fizik guidelines correctly by the way.

Finally, any saddle is going to reduce circulation somewhat, and this can result in a very sore tired feeling in your legs until you get out of the saddle or move around, so get into a habit of doing that regularly.

drlodge

Have a read of this, quite informative http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/09/all-about-smps/ Especially the bit about the shape of the pelvis and how rotating the pelvis affects the width of the "sit bones"

I now have an SMP Lite 209 and its great.

ai_1

I'd agree with most if not all of bahzob and dw300's comments. Although I would have said a more people are likely to have their problems due to the saddle being too high rather than too low! Although either is possible. With the saddle slightly too high you can end up rocking side to side while pedalling without realising it. This can create a lot of pain after a long ride.
I had that problem very early in my cycling career and was getting a lot of pain on any rides over 1 hour. After dropping the saddle I was much more comfortable. However over the following year or two I got much faster and a bit more flexible, I dropped my handlebar which generally means more likelyhood of pressure on the perineum and started doing much longer rides. I would regularly have some discomfort and numbness on rides of 3hrs+ but nothing major (I had also done a bike fit at this stage). Then after one 160km ride I had significant numbness which didn't fully disappear for more than 24hrs and I decided something had to change. I tried several saddles including the Fizik Aliante, Cobb V-Flow Max, Adamo Breakaway and some others and ended up with a Specialised Romin Evo Expert which I find very good. It's got a cut-out and a dropped nose which are pretty effective at relieving pressure. The Romin Evo Expert shape seems to suit a lot of people and it seems to be a very popular saddle among those who've had problems. I was between minds which saddle to get as I found the Adamo Breakaway superb for fast rides (comfortable and absolutely zero perineal pain or numbness) but it felt a little wide when sitting up on long rides and in the hills. The Adamo saddles do take some getting used to and you're likely to be quite uncomfortable for the first few rides but stick with it and once you adapt you may well find it a revelation! The Specialised wasn't quite as comfortable in a low riding position but is a more conventional, narrow shape and felt more natural on easy rides and clmbing. I seriously considered the Breakaway as it definitely gave the best solution to the pain and numbness problem and I think I'd get used to it for general riding but I played it safe and went with the Specialised in the end (it was also cheaper!)

I recently bought a new road bike and moved my Specialised saddle over to that. I've just bought the newer Adamo Attack saddle for the older bike which I've re-tasked, for now, as a time trial bike with clip-on extensions and a forward seatpost. I've only done a couple of rides so far and as meantioned previously the Adamo saddles can be uncomfortable at first. However, after my previous experience with these I'll stick with it a couple of weeks after which I expect it to be worth it. As when I tried the Breakaway, I feel absolutely no pressure on the perenium no matter how far forward I rotate my pelvis however the "prongs) of these saddles put pressure on different areas to a conventional saddle and I found it quite uncomfortable at first when I tried the Breakaway and the same is the case this time. Previously that discomfort disappeared after a few rides and I'm sure that will be the case again this time. The Attack is sold as a more road optimised follow up to the Breakaway and Podium saddles. The rear half of the saddle is narrower than the previous models, supposedly to allow you move around more. It definitely has a less defined seating position than I remember from the Breakaway but don't know how that will effect it's comfort yet.

raymond82

Thanks for all your responses!

bahzob wrote:

You haven't mentioned whether or not you have had a proper bike fit.

If you have np. If you haven't then you are wasting your time and money trying out different saddles, since chances are its not the saddle that is the problem. If your position is wrong then your weight may well be in the wrong place and this will cause issues. Even small margins of a cm here or there can result in discomfort. The most typical mistake is to set the saddle too low in the mistaken belief that you sit on it as you would a chair with it taking most of your weight.

If you have had a bike fit then one different option would be an Adamo. They are specifically designed to relieve all pressure from the perineum. I got one for TT after suffering big time on a 100 and it is fantastic for that purpose, I've done 100s and 12 hours with no pain at all. It can also be used in normal riding, I do all my indoor training on one and have done 4 hour non-stop sessions comfortably. That said I know it does not work for everyone, another couple in my club use them but one chap tried one and couldn't get on with it. If you try one you do need to make sure it's set up correctly and give it a couple of weeks to get used to, since it's quite different from a normal saddle.

Good point, I did have a bike fit. Two actually, a simple one and a more elaborate one but the outcome was very similar. After the second more elaborate one I still had some back pain until I slightly adjusted the nose of the saddle and discovered how I can rotate my pelvis forward. After that the back pain was gone completely but with the pelvis rotated forward my perineum started to hurt. The adamo saddles have also been on my radar, I might try them but I first wanted to try with more conventional saddles.

dw300 wrote:

You can be riding the perfect saddle for you, and have it at the wrong height or angle and it'll feel terrible. Equally, you could have it set right, but if its too wide, then you'll slide forward to a narrower part where there is less pressure support for your sit bones and more pressure on your delicate bits.

You might also be sitting too far forward on the saddle to get into a position nearer your bottom bracket because your saddle is too high and the forward part reduces the distance to the pedals.

Alternatively you may have too much forward tilt and gravity is making you slide forward.

Get all this sorted first and then narrow down the saddle type. You are understanding the Fizik guidelines correctly by the way.

Finally, any saddle is going to reduce circulation somewhat, and this can result in a very sore tired feeling in your legs until you get out of the saddle or move around, so get into a habit of doing that regularly.

This is also a very good point, I notice I do have a tendency to sit at the front of the saddle too much. I currently can't really afford to go back to the bike fitter but I will try some more extensive fitting myself on a trainer. Also I might have come a bit too sensitive to the pressure, the Selle Italia saddle I tried last I liked a lot better and maybe I should get used to having a little bit of pressure and adapt my riding style to it.

One thing about the Fizik guidelines I don't understand is how the kick in the back is related to pelvic tilt. I would say that people that are more flexible tilt their pelvis forward more and according to Fizik they need flatter saddles. But I'm inflexible according to their standards but my problem comes from (too much) pelvic rotation.

drlodge wrote:

Have a read of this, quite informative http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/09/all-about-smps/ Especially the bit about the shape of the pelvis and how rotating the pelvis affects the width of the "sit bones"

I now have an SMP Lite 209 and its great.

Interesting piece indeed, I had already noticed that the bones you sit one when you do the typical cardboard sitbone measurement you find on youtube are not really the bones you sit on on the saddle. These bones stick out on the back... According to this piece the cutout is to prevent issues with the pelvis and the kick at the back is to support you. For a while I thought the kick is there to lift your perineum a bit but I see now that's not the case. I guess the same principle is behind the Fizik saddles when it comes to the kick at the back. So it's the cutout that is important then, cutout of the Superflow is quite wide (4 cm at the back and 3 in the middle) is the cutout of the SMP even wider?

Ai_1 wrote:

I'd agree with most if not all of bahzob and dw300's comments. Although I would have said a more people are likely to have their problems due to the saddle being too high rather than too low! Although either is possible. With the saddle slightly too high you can end up rocking side to side while pedalling without realising it. This can create a lot of pain after a long ride.
I had that problem very early in my cycling career and was getting a lot of pain on any rides over 1 hour. After dropping the saddle I was much more comfortable. However over the following year or two I got much faster and a bit more flexible, I dropped my handlebar which generally means more likelyhood of pressure on the perineum and started doing much longer rides. I would regularly have some discomfort and numbness on rides of 3hrs+ but nothing major (I had also done a bike fit at this stage). Then after one 160km ride I had significant numbness which didn't fully disappear for more than 24hrs and I decided something had to change. I tried several saddles including the Fizik Aliante, Cobb V-Flow Max, Adamo Breakaway and some others and ended up with a Specialised Romin Evo Expert which I find very good. It's got a cut-out and a dropped nose which are pretty effective at relieving pressure. The Romin Evo Expert shape seems to suit a lot of people and it seems to be a very popular saddle among those who've had problems. I was between minds which saddle to get as I found the Adamo Breakaway superb for fast rides (comfortable and absolutely zero perineal pain or numbness) but it felt a little wide when sitting up on long rides and in the hills. The Adamo saddles do take some getting used to and you're likely to be quite uncomfortable for the first few rides but stick with it and once you adapt you may well find it a revelation! The Specialised wasn't quite as comfortable in a low riding position but is a more conventional, narrow shape and felt more natural on easy rides and clmbing. I seriously considered the Breakaway as it definitely gave the best solution to the pain and numbness problem and I think I'd get used to it for general riding but I played it safe and went with the Specialised in the end (it was also cheaper!)

I recently bought a new road bike and moved my Specialised saddle over to that. I've just bought the newer Adamo Attack saddle for the older bike which I've re-tasked, for now, as a time trial bike with clip-on extensions and a forward seatpost. I've only done a couple of rides so far and as meantioned previously the Adamo saddles can be uncomfortable at first. However, after my previous experience with these I'll stick with it a couple of weeks after which I expect it to be worth it. As when I tried the Breakaway, I feel absolutely no pressure on the perenium no matter how far forward I rotate my pelvis however the "prongs) of these saddles put pressure on different areas to a conventional saddle and I found it quite uncomfortable at first when I tried the Breakaway and the same is the case this time. Previously that discomfort disappeared after a few rides and I'm sure that will be the case again this time. The Attack is sold as a more road optimised follow up to the Breakaway and Podium saddles. The rear half of the saddle is narrower than the previous models, supposedly to allow you move around more. It definitely has a less defined seating position than I remember from the Breakaway but don't know how that will effect it's comfort yet.

The specialized romin I also quite like, I believe it's quite flat and I like that. It's worth trying as the shops here offer a month of trying, it will be the next one I try. The ISM adamo saddles I'll keep in the back of my mind too. It's just that after trying an SQ labs 611, which has a very distinctive shape and therefore quite restricted place to sit, I realized that I like a saddle that I can move around on a bit more. It's good to know some adamo saddles allow that.

I think the best I can do is spend a day on a trainer with the three saddles I have and the outcome from the bike fit to see if by playing with saddle height etc I can get to a good fit. If not I might try the Romin and then the adamo seats. At least I have a clearer idea now about the use of a kick at the back of the saddle, I don't think it's something I should worry about given my complaints. That's good cause it means that I don't have to also try the aliante...

ai_1

I would advise you to avoid buying any saddles unless they're returnable. Some people seem to buy huge numbers of saddles in the search for one they like. Sure you can try selling them on afterwards but you'll make a loss and it's more trouble than I'd like to take on.
Plenty LBSs do test saddles for Fizik and some do other brands. I bought my specialised with an option to return it within a month. I initially got the 143mm version, found it uncomfortable and changed it for the 155mm version which was a completely different experience and which I've ridden ever since.
I got Cobb and Adamo test saddles from www.bike-science.co.uk. You pay the price of the saddle as a deposit but that's refunded on return. You only pay a few quid for shipping.
Besides the expense of buying saddles you're not sure you'll like, there's also the tendency to talk yourself into sticking with one that's not really right because you've paid for it and you really want it to be right.

raymond82

That's exactly why I wanted to know a bit more about all the shapes and what they are supposed to do before continuing buying random saddles. So far the saddles I've bought I plan on returning to the shop as I will be careful not to damage them. I also know that Specialized gives a month of trying in case I decide to go for the Romin and I've also found a place here in Holland (where I live) that offers a two week deal with the Adamo saddles.

Tonight I'm gonna pick up a tacx so I can really compare the saddle I had (Fizik Ardea) with the two alternative saddles I have now (SQ labs 611 and Selle Italia Superflow). Both saddles should give plenty of relief at the perineum, if I don't find them satisfying I'll consider what next steps to take. I will also contact the bike fitter, he might be willing to explain to me what to look for.

ai_1

When you say you're picking up a Tacx so you can compare do you mean a Tacx turbo trainer?
I don't know if you've used to turbo trainers before but I find that saddles feel quite different on a turbo trainer because the bike is static and doesn't move with you. Also I tend to change position less often on the turbo trainer, probably because I'm never cornering, climbing, descending or absorbing bumps. So a turbo trainer will definitely give you a good idea about saddle comfort on the road but may not be completely representative. Just something to bear in mind!

raymond82 wrote:

The specialized romin I also quite like, I believe it's quite flat and I like that. It's worth trying as the shops here offer a month of trying, it will be the next one I try.

There's different versions of the Romin. The Romin Evo Expert has both a good cutout and channel plus a downward curving nose which also provides more space for blood flow when you rotate your pelvis forward. I can't remember if "Evo" or "Expert" or both refer to the curved nose shape but you should be able to find that on their website or looking in the shop. The standard Romin is a flatter saddle but may not allow as much perineal comfort in a forward rotated position.

dw300

raymond82 wrote:

Thanks for all your responses!

One thing about the Fizik guidelines I don't understand is how the kick in the back is related to pelvic tilt. I would say that people that are more flexible tilt their pelvis forward more and according to Fizik they need flatter saddles. But I'm inflexible according to their standards but my problem comes from (too much) pelvic rotation.

Perhaps you're having to use a lot of pelvis rotation to reach your bars because you're too low at the front, or too stretched out. Could be another reason you're moving forward.

You have two options .. get more flexible, so that you need less rotation and bend more in the mid-upper part of your back to reach/get low. Or raise your bars and shorten your reach slightly. You might be less aero, so you need to weight up aerodynamics vs comfort to decide what to change. I'd rather be comfortable.

Look at the photos in this article (I've not read the article, im in work, but I'm sure it might also give you something to think about).. http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/

See the difference in the angle the base of their spines are coming out of the hips. That's mainly where most of your 'flexibility' comes from. So you might effectively have a short upper body even if when measured its normal.

I think you'd want to reduce your pelvis tilt if its causing you problems and that might mean less of a reach than you can actually reach. No point having a great position if its hurting you. I personally also feel that I get less leverage the more I tilt my hips, which robs me of power. So there are some reasons not to be too low or too stretched out if you arent flexible.

foggybike

I had problems down there and purchase the SMP Drakon, had no problems again until the switching came over without be realising until I got home and it had almost destroy my brand new shorts.... Couldn't get another one due to the shop I bought it from no longer selling them.

I tried and ISM saddle and had the worst pain ever using that saddle, but it was probably just a setup issue.

So went back to SMP, but now ended up with SMP Avant. It has a little more padding than the Drakon that I probably didn't need as I had no issues with the Drakon. But managed to get the Avant for £122 rather than £175 for the Drakon.
This place below is the UK distributor for Selle SMP, and they do test saddles :-)

http://www.dillglove.co.uk/test-saddles/

Definitely worth a try IMO.