Anti Semitism?

mr_goo

Has anyone noticed the conspicuous disappearance of the Middle East Envoy during the last month or so? I suspect he is hiding up Bush's backside.

pinno

Tangled Metal wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

if hamas stopped firing rockets at Israel, recognised their right to exist, then there wouldn't have been an invasion, these poor people wouldn't be dead and Israel would lift its blockade.
:

Has Israel recognized...

How long ago was the MauMau suppression? How long ago was the US atrocities with napalm in Vietnam? How long ago was the death penalty applied that took 2 hours to kill the condemned prisoner in the USA? how long ago was Guantanamo Bay allowed to waterboard? Blood on all our hands but that does not stop trying to make progress, one bit at a time.

Boy you don't half mix a whole load of conflicts up and this argument was asking the question about anti-Semitism.

So whilst we are going off track: Mau mau supression?!

Here we go.

The Mau mau were a militia wing of the Kikuyu tribe. The number of deaths during the Mau Mau uprising is uncertain but the most accurate one is 40,000 - most of which were committed by the Mau Mau's against the Kikuyu's them selves. Jomo Kenyatta (first president of Kenya), personally denounced the Mau mau.
They were an evil bunch of individuals that my father fought against as a militia and not with the British Army and gave a non-propoganda driven view of the actions of the mau mau and believe you me, some of them were utterly atrocious and not for an internet forum. The world never took notice of the atrocities carried out by the Mau mau because similar atrocities happened in Rwanda and the things that happened in Kenya was a sign of things to come.
BTW, if you fought with the British Army you were given the automatic right to have Duel or Kenyan Nationality after independence but because my father didn't, he went to NZ and changed his name by de-poll and returned to Kenya.

There is no evidence that the Mau mau uprising was a political uprising. They claimed to be but were mostly illiterate and took to the Panga (machete) for vicarious evil pleasure. The British Army protected the Kikuyu's (who were not Mau mau sympathetic), the Luo's, the Samburu's and many other tribes during this period because the Mau mau went on a rampage of the most insidious kind.
The white militia groups were framers of non-British origin who had to protect their farms and families and were often not given quite the protection from the British Army, often days away from towns and the capitol Nairobi. The militias embarrassed the British Army because they were very efficient in dealing with the Mau mau.

I am still astounded by those who hold the Mau mau in a certain light - as liberators, as freedom fighters. What a load of bollox. Before you jump on the populist Empire Bashing that seems to be contemporary and PC, get some facts right and stop sucking in the media shyte that is fed to us regarding that period of Kenyan history.

Back to the OP:

Hamas do not recognise and refuse to recognise Israel as a state. Whilst the actions of Israel can or cannot be justified, the Palestinians need to promote a different body to represent them. I think the world would be less divided about the Palestinian situation if they had a concerted and peaceful protest driven by a legitimate political body. Unfortunately, this current conflict will probably entrench and embitter many Palestinians and make for the above less likely in the future.

nathancom

On the subject of racism, this is cringeworthy. I bet they end up with MPs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-28840210

t4tomo

Mr Goo wrote:

Why didn't the western allies push back the Red Army thus creating an enlarged Western Europe with plenty of room for the Jews to re-establish their lives after WW2. I am not an historian, but some things I just don't get.
.

Something to do with the current Israel being in the "holy land". the Jews were historically driven out of the region by the Arabs and persecuted throughout Europe & elsewhere and hence the creation of a Jewish state back in the holy land. Having it in Bulgaria wouldn't have really worked.

Cut to Palestian point of view - you've been shoved off your land by some people whose original religious claim to the land you don't particularly believe in as it's not part of the Muslim faith.

Tis a buggers muddle far harder than Northern Ireland to solve. at least Catholics and Protestants fundamentally believe in the same god, and their disputes and hatred only went back a generation or two.

In the Middle East you have two very different religions and centuries of war and hatred. I have spent a very small time in Israel, and my impression was that your typical educated Jew hates the Palestinians and believe they are a second class citizen. The level of contempt is staggering. I'm sure the feeling is mutual. It makes race prejudice in Britain in the 70's seem like a primary school playground tiff.

tangled_metal

pinarello001 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

if hamas stopped firing rockets at Israel, recognised their right to exist, then there wouldn't have been an invasion, these poor people wouldn't be dead and Israel would lift its blockade.
:

Has Israel recognized...

How long ago was the MauMau suppression? How long ago was the US atrocities with napalm in Vietnam? How long ago was the death penalty applied that took 2 hours to kill the condemned prisoner in the USA? how long ago was Guantanamo Bay allowed to waterboard? Blood on all our hands but that does not stop trying to make progress, one bit at a time.

Boy you don't half mix a whole load of conflicts up and this argument was asking the question about anti-Semitism.

.

Yes a whole lot of examples of inhumanity and human rights abuses. Someone brought up an argument along the lines that China has a bad record of human rights abuses but people still buy stuff from them but ppl just complain about Israel. My argument was that there's no nation without human rights abuses in the past and often the recent or current. I listed a few cases. Whatever the mau mau did there was still human rights abuses by the British authorities. That in my view is one example of our country's human rights abuses. Could have mentioned events from Iraq or a whole load of events from our colonial days.

I've not linked those conflicts/abuses to Israeli/Palestinian situation only to counter the post questioning why we don't stop buying from China because of their human rights record. That post went right off topic and mine went with it. If you thought I was an apologist for the mau mau you are wrong. I have no illusions over the guilt of that group. However there are disputes over how many of them were killed by British and proxies. 11000 officially but unofficially the highest figure I've heard was about 90000 killed tortured or maimed. That's still an abuse not least because it's not equal numbers on both sides.

Back to antisemitism in the UK... Anyone know if the increase in it mentioned by that MET officer is carried across the whole of the UK? I can imagine different areas have different levels due to various social or demographic reasons.

finchy

Mr Goo wrote:

I have never understood the historic antipathy towards Jews. Anti Semitism was rife in the UK and France (especially) right up until the end of the 19th century.

Firstly, don't forget that Europe was deeply religious (still is in many parts) and that historically many of these religions haven't even been able to tolerate different denominations of the same faith. If Catholics and Protestants are willing to burn each other at the stake, why would Judaism get away with it?

Secondly, Jews were only allowed to work in certain professions. Money lending was one of them. That is not one of those lines of work by which you can make yourself loved.

rick_chasey

Is well documented that anti semitism is on the rise in Europe and not just because of Israel - though their new hard right party and its belligerent decisions don't help.

Lots of stuff on this in the various (real) newspapers.

pblakeney

t4tomo wrote:

Tis a buggers muddle far harder than Northern Ireland to solve. at least Catholics and Protestants fundamentally believe in the same god, and their disputes and hatred only went back a generation or two.

Historical accuracy check.
Fail.

Paulie W

t4tomo wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Why didn't the western allies push back the Red Army thus creating an enlarged Western Europe with plenty of room for the Jews to re-establish their lives after WW2. I am not an historian, but some things I just don't get.
.

Something to do with the current Israel being in the "holy land". the Jews were historically driven out of the region by the Arabs and persecuted throughout Europe & elsewhere and hence the creation of a Jewish state back in the holy land. Having it in Bulgaria wouldn't have really worked.

The historical aspect was a big part of it - the return to Israel is a significant recurring theme in the Hebrew Bible - but substantial numbers of jews were already resident in the regionwho had fled from persecution in Eastern Europe in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Initially this was not badly received by the resident population but this changed dramatically in the 30s and 40s.

t4tomo

PBlakeney wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

Tis a buggers muddle far harder than Northern Ireland to solve. at least Catholics and Protestants fundamentally believe in the same god, and their disputes and hatred only went back a generation or two.

Historical accuracy check.
Fail.

Northern Ireland Cs and Ps - not historically globally.
Pass

pblakeney

t4tomo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

Tis a buggers muddle far harder than Northern Ireland to solve. at least Catholics and Protestants fundamentally believe in the same god, and their disputes and hatred only went back a generation or two.

Historical accuracy check.
Fail.

Northern Ireland Cs and Ps - not historically globally.
Pass

You were claiming the disputes only went back a generation or two. This is false as the disputes began in Ulster in 1609.
The "Troubles" began in the 1960s but you did not refer specifically to them.

Back to a fail again.

tangled_metal

Wasn't that the time of the Plantation of Ulster? The time when the McDonnals and O'Neills fled to Catholic Europe to try and get support. The seizing of their lands and handing over to protestant settlers (mostly Scottish IIRC). Then there was the Jacobite/Williamite situation later on (led to battle of Boyne and all the others which Orange order try to celebrate with marches.

Yes, I don't see much similarities with Gaza and Israel. Although the "planting" of foreign settlers sounds along similar vein. Both situations involve the greater power seizing lands and bringing in foreign settlers to change the demographics and control the region better I reckon.

Still, nothing to do with antisemitism in the UK as in the OP. Does anyone have any info on police figures of antisemitic incidents in other police constabularies than the MET one??

pblakeney

Britain has a long (and sad) history in trying to organise who should live where and under who's rule.

Back to the Police, this report implicates Manchester.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28685158

ai_1

PBlakeney wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

Tis a buggers muddle far harder than Northern Ireland to solve. at least Catholics and Protestants fundamentally believe in the same god, and their disputes and hatred only went back a generation or two.

Historical accuracy check.
Fail.

Northern Ireland Cs and Ps - not historically globally.
Pass

You were claiming the disputes only went back a generation or two. This is false as the disputes began in Ulster in 1609.
The "Troubles" began in the 1960s but you did not refer specifically to them.

Back to a fail again.

Yes, definitely a fail I'm afraid. Even 1609 would only be the midpoint as most irish nationalists would see it.
Are you not aware that the typical nationalist view contends that Ireland had endured "800 years of oppression".
Type that phrase into Google and see what turns up.

There are definitely many similarities between the Israel/Palestine situation and "the troubles" in Northern Ireland. There are also many differences.

However, there is no doubt that the occupation of Ireland created strong anti-English sentiment in Ireland and in certain communities elsewhere. It was for the most part, I think, political sentiment not religious, though the two became intertwined due to the close correlation between political and religious affiliations. i.e. most protestants were aligned with unionism and most catholics with nationalism. As I mentioned in an earlier post, once you start dividing people into groups and you ask them to choose sides or just assign an imagined allegience, things have a tendency to go horribly wrong.

slowmart

And the UK continues to aid the murder of civilians. Hardly surprising nor is the silence from HM Government regarding the murder of civilians.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 43902.html



Both sides are guilty of war crimes and the political landscape in both Israel and Palestine are not conducive to long term peace and prosperity. Civilians on both sides are becoming more polarised and the more extreme views are finding fertile ground which perpetuates not just the cycle of violence but justifies the abhorrent acts executed in their name which then pushes reactive excesses even further. Add international 24 hour news channels who aren't as squeamish as the UK media is showing dead and disfigured children.

Back to the OP's question. Is the UN anti semitic in their 45 resolutions in condemning Israel?


Like everything you can apply what ever labels you wish to suit your own political agenda.

tangled_metal

Is Israel a secular state where all are allowed to follow any religion or none? If it is then condemning the actions of Israel the sovereign state has no element of antisemitism on its own. Having said that you can condemn the state from the basis of antisemitism. I.e. you hate the Jews through prejudice so you hate and condemn Israel under the ignorant belief it's a Jewish state. However that sentiment is extreme.

slowmart

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... _PbEVa15zQ


Perspective eh!


The bottom line here is no one has the political will, capability or platform for peace. The political masters and arms suppliers , Iran & the USA are using the territory, much like Iraq and Afghanistan for their own ends.

nathancom

It really is strange just how incensed people get about this particular conflict on both sides compared to say the Syrian war where well over 100k civilians have died. It is clearly a bad situation with blame on both sides but it is far from unique yet it arouses probably the greatest levels of debate of any conflict.

Someone mentioned UN resolutions above - Israel has been subject to more UN resolutions than all the rest put together as though it is responsible for the greatest conflict in the world and the worst regime out there, neither of which I think are true whatever you think about the situation. There is clearly a narrative that exists independent of the conflict, a clash of civilizations, a focal point by which political groups define themselves.

kammybear

Why do have to use the phrase Anti-semitism?

It should be just referred to as Racism. Jews are considered a race in the UK.

The phrase anti-semitism is just spin/propaganda tool and means nothing really.

For instance...Palestinians/arabs are semites as well, so any criticism of Hamas is also Anti-semetic if we use Israelis term of reference.

MichaelW

kammybear wrote:

Why do have to use the phrase Anti-semitism?
It should be just referred to as Racism. Jews are considered a race in the UK.
The phrase anti-semitism is just spin/propaganda tool and means nothing really.
For instance...Palestinians/arabs are semites as well, so any criticism of Hamas is also Anti-semetic if we use Israelis term of reference.

Anti-semitism does not mean anti-Arab racism, however much you might like it to. The phrase anti-semitism was created by anti-Jewish racists.
The left-wing, anti-racist movement uses a "class analysis of racism". Anti-semitism causes confusion for this movement when the victims of racism are not working-class, but "capitalists".

hipshot

Anti semitism certainly exists under the surface in the UK, but Islamophobia seems to have openly seeped into all levels of society and it has almost become socially acceptable to overgeneralise about 'muslims'.

The First Minister of Northern Ireland recently implied that he didn't trust muslims. (Imagine if he had said Jews and then try to imagine him still being in his job) Mosques have been set on fire and recently invaded by right wing thugs. (Imagine if they had been synagogues and then imagine the media not reporting it).

Israel is a wealthy fully armed state bombing civilians in a locked refugee camp (who have no army/airforce/navy, only Hamas).

Pro Israel groups certainly claim anti semitism is on the rise, although they would as this is their fall back defence whenever Israel does the indefensible.

mr_goo

hipshot wrote:

Anti semitism certainly exists under the surface in the UK, but Islamophobia seems to have seeped into all levels of society and it has almost become socially acceptable to overgeneralise and make ill informed statements about 'muslims'.

The First Minister of Northern Ireland recently implied that he didn't trust muslims. (Imagine if he had said Jews and then try to imagine him still being in his job) Mosques have been set on fire and invaded by right wing thugs. (Imagine if they had been synagogues and then imagine the media not reporting it).

Israel is a wealthy fully armed state bombing civilians in a locked refugee camp (they have no army/airforce, only Hamas 'terrorists').

Pro Israel groups certainly claim anti semitism is on the rise, although they would as this is their fall back defence whenever Israel does the indefensible.

Mosques and other Islamic centres were vandalised in the wake of the Lee Rigby's barbaric murder on the streets of Woolwich. I seem to recall the police going the extra mile to catch the culprits. I certainly have not seen any news stories about the the police making any arrests from the attacks on synagogues and jewish cemeteries. In the last couple of decades its all been about appeasing one religion in the UK.

hipshot

Tangled Metal wrote:

Is Israel a secular state where all are allowed to follow any religion or none? If it is then condemning the actions of Israel the sovereign state has no element of antisemitism on its own. Having said that you can condemn the state from the basis of antisemitism. I.e. you hate the Jews through prejudice so you hate and condemn Israel under the ignorant belief it's a Jewish state. However that sentiment is extreme.

You can follow any religion in Israel, at present, but Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. (How equal non-jewish Israelis are within that society is doubtful).

This is how pro Israelis can caricature criticism of Israel as anti-Jewish. It also explains how Israel is able to commit these war crimes against civilians in full view of the world without other countries intervening diplomatically, or even making mild criticisms.

mamba80

Israel is the whipping boy for the left, with out the active support of the USA, it would have been destroyed by the Arabs decades ago, do you not remember the constant wars Israel has fought against the Syrians, Egyptians and Jordan? the suicide bombings that Israel endured before they had such harsh boarder conditions?

how can they negotiate with their enemy, when that enemies sole and stated aim is the destruction of the Israeli state? and I wonder what they would have done with the surviving jews? convert or die.

If you really need a cause to fight, then look at China and its treatment of the Tibetans or the use of the its death penalty but unfortunately, that would mean economic hardship for the west, so let have ago at the Jew instead to salve our conscience.

hipshot

how can they negotiate with their enemy, when that enemies sole and stated aim is the destruction of the Israeli state? and I wonder what they would have done with the surviving jews? convert or die.

Remember Israel stole their land, put the survivors into refugee camps. The palestinians out of desperation set up the PLO who the Israelis regarded as terrorists, Israel refused to abide by US sponsored agreements with the PLO (illegal settlements) , continued the siege and bombings of Gaza, the depleted uranium, the extra-judicial murders and kidnaps. Gaza was desperate and voted for a more extreme organisation, Hamas who Israel regards as terrorist. See the pattern?

You don't fight extremism by killing 500 children in a month.

mamba80

I agree with you, I see the news and my heart bleeds for these poor people and not only the children, it is a desperate situation.
Judea and Israel are the Israelis ancient homelands and after their treatment at the hands of the fascist's no one was going to deny them their home coming, in the 1940s, well the unfortunate Palestinians aside.

Israel has also signed treaties that have been broken by the Arabs/Palestinians.

Hamas are clearly the weaker here and they ll never win... ever, so maybe they d be better off negotiating with the Israelis and the first move would be to stop building tunnels and launching rockets at them, but they wont do that, condemning their people to death and destruction and economic hardship.
this is what the IRA decided to do and NI has had for many years an uneasy peace, how many lives on both sides have been saved?
But if Hamas start from the premise that only the total and final destruction of the Israelis will do, then that is not a tenable negotiating position the Israelis will accept.

Apologies for this going slightly off topic

BelgianBeerGeek

Mr Goo wrote:

hipshot wrote:

Anti semitism certainly exists under the surface in the UK, but Islamophobia seems to have seeped into all levels of society and it has almost become socially acceptable to overgeneralise and make ill informed statements about 'muslims'.

The First Minister of Northern Ireland recently implied that he didn't trust muslims. (Imagine if he had said Jews and then try to imagine him still being in his job) Mosques have been set on fire and invaded by right wing thugs. (Imagine if they had been synagogues and then imagine the media not reporting it).

Israel is a wealthy fully armed state bombing civilians in a locked refugee camp (they have no army/airforce, only Hamas 'terrorists').

Pro Israel groups certainly claim anti semitism is on the rise, although they would as this is their fall back defence whenever Israel does the indefensible.

Mr Goo, that is not true. Any group, minority or otherwise, would have this investigated.

Peace to all.

Mosques and other Islamic centres were vandalised in the wake of the Lee Rigby's barbaric murder on the streets of Woolwich. I seem to recall the police going the extra mile to catch the culprits. I certainly have not seen any news stories about the the police making any arrests from the attacks on synagogues and jewish cemeteries. In the last couple of decades its all been about appeasing one religion in the UK.

BelgianBeerGeek

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

hipshot wrote:

Anti semitism certainly exists under the surface in the UK, but Islamophobia seems to have seeped into all levels of society and it has almost become socially acceptable to overgeneralise and make ill informed statements about 'muslims'.

The First Minister of Northern Ireland recently implied that he didn't trust muslims. (Imagine if he had said Jews and then try to imagine him still being in his job) Mosques have been set on fire and invaded by right wing thugs. (Imagine if they had been synagogues and then imagine the media not reporting it).

Israel is a wealthy fully armed state bombing civilians in a locked refugee camp (they have no army/airforce, only Hamas 'terrorists').

Pro Israel groups certainly claim anti semitism is on the rise, although they would as this is their fall back defence whenever Israel does the indefensible.

Errmm..summat going' ere?

My comments appearing in Mr Goo's. :?

Mr Goo, that is not true. Any group, minority or otherwise, would have this investigated.

Peace to all.

Mosques and other Islamic centres were vandalised in the wake of the Lee Rigby's barbaric murder on the streets of Woolwich. I seem to recall the police going the extra mile to catch the culprits. I certainly have not seen any news stories about the the police making any arrests from the attacks on synagogues and jewish cemeteries. In the last couple of decades its all been about appeasing one religion in the UK.

ai_1

MichaelW wrote:

kammybear wrote:

Why do have to use the phrase Anti-semitism?
It should be just referred to as Racism. Jews are considered a race in the UK.
The phrase anti-semitism is just spin/propaganda tool and means nothing really.
For instance...Palestinians/arabs are semites as well, so any criticism of Hamas is also Anti-semetic if we use Israelis term of reference.

Anti-semitism does not mean anti-Arab racism, however much you might like it to. The phrase anti-semitism was created by anti-Jewish racists.
The left-wing, anti-racist movement uses a "class analysis of racism". Anti-semitism causes confusion for this movement when the victims of racism are not working-class, but "capitalists".

Care to explain that post in more detail?
You're telling us what you think the term "anti-semitism" doesn't mean but not what you think it does. Not very helpful. Then you seem to be implying a left-wing movement is confused by capitalism or something. It's a very confused or confusing post. I think you're trying to make some secific point but I really can't figure out what it is.

MichaelW

The phrase anti-semitism was coined by german, anti-Jewish racist Wilhelm Marr in about 1879. He wrote "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" and founded the League of Antisemites. Anti-semitism was, and is, specifically anti-Jewish, rather than anti-swarthy-foreign-types racism. It includes all the various conspiracy theories typical of anti-jewish racism and a-typical of other kinds of racism. Racism against black and asians included many strange theories, but taking over the world and pulling all the strings is not one of them.

The modern anti-racist movement in the UK is specifically a left-wing movement with roots in parties such as the Socialist Workers Party of 1970s, even if the followers of the movement are not SWP or left wingers.
Racism is seen by the Left, in their Marxist Analysis, as a tool of the ruling class to divide the working class. In this analysis, the "racial underdog" (eg black and asians) is always of a lower class than the "racial overdog" (eg white ruling class). Jews don't fit into this pattern of class-oppressed victims when Jews (in the UK/USA) are seen as part of the Capitalist class, rather than working class. The breakdown of Marxist Analysis when dealing with Anti-semitism leads to cognitive dissonance.