Anti Semitism?
ballysmate
Posts: 14,745
Are we seeing a rise of anti Semitism in this country? There have been reports of its rise throughout Europe, but is it happening here?
Sainsbury's in Holborn, London removed kosher products from its shelves in the face of a pro Palestinian protest. Note that they removed kosher products and not Israeli products.
I am no more a fan of the kosher method of slaughter over the halal method, both can be needlessly cruel. But imagine if Sainsbury's had removed all halal food, thereby making it difficult for Muslims to follow their faith. All Sainsbury's have done is inconvenience local Jewish people in the local community.
There may be sympathy for the protesters view of the Gaza situation, but penalising Jewish people living in London is not the answer.
There was a demo at Tesco in Birmingham, whereby a pro Palestinian mob ran amok. Coincidence that Tesco was founded by Jack Cohen, born in London to Jewish immigrants? I hope so.
Sainsbury's in Holborn, London removed kosher products from its shelves in the face of a pro Palestinian protest. Note that they removed kosher products and not Israeli products.
I am no more a fan of the kosher method of slaughter over the halal method, both can be needlessly cruel. But imagine if Sainsbury's had removed all halal food, thereby making it difficult for Muslims to follow their faith. All Sainsbury's have done is inconvenience local Jewish people in the local community.
There may be sympathy for the protesters view of the Gaza situation, but penalising Jewish people living in London is not the answer.
There was a demo at Tesco in Birmingham, whereby a pro Palestinian mob ran amok. Coincidence that Tesco was founded by Jack Cohen, born in London to Jewish immigrants? I hope so.
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There have been antisemitic attacks on Jewish cemeteries in the northwest in the past year but these attacks hit the news with outrage. An indication I think of the low levels of this problem here. However, the whole waters are muddied by a certain Jewish media lobby group (I wish I could remember their name). I understand they are founded in the US but are globally based and are active via social media. It works to support the Israelis position and uses the antisemitism card vigorously. This sounds like tin hat conspiracy but is true. Say if the Guardian writes a piece condemning Israelis actions on Gaza which is picked up in London say by a reader. That person, part of this group, posts a comment about this article. Then other members of this group when they log on and read it sign up and start posting comments in support of the Israelis position. A simple system but it has been abused and as a result there are groups monitoring them (from the Palestinian supporting side).
As I said it is muddied waters but it is still not antisemitism to be against the Israelis actions in Gaza and against the Palestinian people.
The fact that Hammas is a terrorist organisation firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis doesn't make them particularly innocent.
You can argue when Israels response is OTT or not, particularly when the Palestinians haven't got anything even approaching Israels missile defence system, but let's not forget there are two sides at fault here, but one has much more military hardware.
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To be honest I haven't noticed it either. There again I'm not Jewish and I don't think I know anyone who is Jewish, but I don't tend to inquire about people's religious beliefs.
But having read about the Sainsbury/Tesco events, a bit of internet searching does show an increase of antisemitism but perhaps not to the level of other European countries.
People who disagree with the Israeli state seem not to be able to distinguish between Israel and Jews of whatever nationality, living thousands of miles away.
This is the point. Hamas is a terrorist organisation so you can expect it to behave in that manner. You should expect a better response from Israel but it behaves in exactly the same way as Hamas. The comments each make about each other are largely interchangeable - the only difference is in the relative number of deaths on each side.
Interesting, anti-Arab reports also increase in Israel during the same period.
http://content.outbrain.com/#/l6/http:/ ... t=27270910
However there are arguments that the Israelis state has committed genocide elsewhere, admittedly by proxy. The Lebanese militias in that desparate conflict that were under Israelis command (the late head of state of Israel was commander of the region at the time) committed a massacre against the opposing side based around a football ground. The IDF, who were there in the area at the time on Lebanese territory, directed the fleeing refugees towards the ground for safety then the militias knew where to find them!! It's a real mess out there and that is no mistake.
ter-ror-ism
[ter-uh-riz-uh m] Spell Syllables
Examples
Word Origin
noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the last quoted comment above. People with opinions from either side of the Israelis/Palestinian argument are distinguishing between the Israelis/Palestinians and the Jewish/Muslim religions. comments on news media sites don't use Israel and Jews as interchangeable words for the same thing do they?? I've not seen that and I'm a serious lurker on news media pieces about the Palestinian situation. I've got friends too who are on the edge of the activism in support of the Palestinian peoples and they are not antisemitic. The links they have sent me to about that also have no antisemitic tones at all. It is out there but in the vast majority Israel and the Jewish religion is separate in the UK. I can not say that this is the same in other European countries though.
Agreed.
If this was WWII Hammas would be Resistance Fighters.
Isreal is a total disgrace.
How reliable the evidence is, I don't know.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 31174.html
http://rt.com/uk/180600-gaza-police-jews-tension/
But perhaps not as bad as European neighbours.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... lence.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28522336
A view from across the pond.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/brendan- ... 1408042650
War crimes trials? I am all for that, lets include Bush and Blair and the leaders of Hamas as well.
We are all v happy to buy our latest smart phone or bike/parts from China but ignore the terrible crimes China has committed in Tibet and against its own people (these deaths far out number anything the Israelis have done (so I assume all those with an anti Israeli stance will boycott Chinese made goods?) ........ hypocrisy springs to mind - Israel is an easy target, jews have been the "cause" of all the worlds evils after all :idea:
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How much of Israel would they have to recognise - what borders ?
As far as anti-semitism goes - there is a problem in that the Jewish diaspora has undoubtedly influenced policy throughout the West in favour of Israel so while Israel and Judaism are not the same thing neither are they two separate entities.
I think you have to accept that as long as supporters of the Israelis state insist on the Palestinians making the first concession / action you will never get any peace. Take N. Ireland as an example. It was the willingness of the Westminster politicians to agree to meet the Republicans that lead towards the Good Friday Agreement. For many decades it was policy never to have direct talks with the Republicans. Whilst Israel and the Palestinians are having direct talks it still needs one side to make the first big concession. At one time the Israelis made a concession for them when they stopped settlements and even dismantled the smaller, easier ones to evict. Small concession from the Palestinian eyes but it got a reciprocal concession in the recognition of the Israelis state by the PA (Palestinian Authority).
Of course you can not argue that a sovereign state is comparable to a territory (or whatever the various Palestinian enclaves are called). The PA controlled areas are closest to being a state and indeed that was why they have managed to set off on the process towards unilaterally being recognized as a state by the UN - observer status. Perhaps recognition of a two state system by both sides is the way. Palestinians (all factions) recognize Israel at the same time that Israel recognizes Palestine as a state (and allows them to exist independently).
Always two sides to this and just applying the term antisemitic to the Palestinian side and those who support it is not accepting that there has been evil done by both (and still is being done).
I very much doubt in this modern age that any form of modern, consumerist society could live without products from a country that commits human rights abuses. That includes not just China, Israel but also USA and the UK. No modern nation has clean hands. How long ago was the MauMau suppression? How long ago was the US atrocities with napalm in Vietnam? How long ago was the death penalty applied that took 2 hours to kill the condemned prisoner in the USA? how long ago was Guantanamo Bay allowed to waterboard? Blood on all our hands but that does not stop trying to make progress, one bit at a time.
I couldnt agree more. There was a time that Northern Ireland seemed as intractable a problem as Gaza. It needs Israel to make the initial concession whatever the rights and the wrongs of the conflict, whatever its history.
You're probably thinking of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). AIPAC (American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee) are very active in the US Congress.
I think that a major part of the problem is that on both sides, the armed forces (IDF, Hamas) feel secure in the fact that they will always have foreign backers to bail them out. The USA will send a load of weapons to Israel and Hamas will get support from Iran, so where is the incentive to press for peace? As long as the violence continues, the two groups mentioned will continue to hold positions of power and privilege in Israel/Gaza.
Your comment above is, in my opinion, very over-simplistic and very inaccurate. I think the Israeli actions towards Palestine are a disgrace and make the aggression by Hamas nearly inevitable. That's not to say I support Hamas, I do not. Both Hamas and the Israeli leadership gain from these conflicts. Everyone else suffers. Nothing is a better recruitment tool for Hamas than Palestinian deaths inflicted by Israeli forces. Nothing is better for stirring up fear and support for the Israeli military action than the Hamas attacks.
It's not ridiculous to think the Israelis are happy to provoke Hamas attacks and Hamas are very willing to oblige. Both leadership groups gain from the repeated cycle of escalation, ceasefire and re-entrenchment that has continued for decades.
The Palestinians are treated disgracefully and of course this leads to aggression. I don't think religion has very much to do with it really. It's just the usual "them and us" mentality. It doesn't matter how you draw the boundaries it's always wrong. Nationality, religion, race, politics, language.....even sport! Once you start putting too much importance on these things and drawing lines between different groups you're going to have trouble. Sometimes a little, often a lot.
Just look at the language in this thread for example. Anyone criticising Israel is presumed to support Hamas! Absurd. I'm more than capable of looking at a situation consisting of two adversaries and empathising with both, criticising both and supporting both or neither.
How do you defeat Hamas? By taking away their ammunition. That's not rockets or bullets, it's public support. Treat palestinians with some respect and violence from Hamas will receive nothing but condemnation, they will no longer be able to recruit from the palestinian population, they will vanish. The same goes for nearly all terrorist groups and/or resistance fighters. It's not giving in, it's actually the right thing to do.
I believe that the reporting of the situation in Palestine in the UK has changed greatly over the last decade from a very strong pro-Israeli point of view to, arguably, a slight bias to the Palestinian side.
Personally I think both sides are as bad as each other but, as someone else said, one side has far more firepower. Basically there's a situation where two groups of people think the other shouldn't exist and therefore shouldn't have anywhere to live. The losers, as ever, are the people stuck in the middle who just want to get on with their lives in peace. All Israel's policy will do is turn more of the everyday Palestinian population into radicals but then that works to the favour of hardline Israelis as there will be more terrorist attacks to justify their stance. The only way it will change is for the moderate population on both sides to vote out those who want to avoid peace at all costs. It briefly look like it might go that way 20 years ago but at present there seems to be no hope.
This is exactly the point. The state of Israel is invading another country with tanks, jets, helicopter gunships, various armoured vehicles and continually bombarding them with artillery. As well as this they have closed its sea, air and land borders. The state of Israel is the one that needs to bring peace rather than creating another generation of hatred on both sides. People with nothing to lose will stop at nothing and until the state of Israel makes the first significant steps nothing will change.
Regarding Israel, I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding in the West. Most conflicts are the result of a set of historical precedents that determine each group to engage in conflict. What are Israel's? The struggle by the early Zionist settlers to carve a homeland free from European Anti-Semistism in the 1920s, the Holocaust and the subsequent immigration into Israel of many of the survivors, Arab mistreatment of Jews following WW2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries), the War for Independence in 1948 where all the Arab countries joined to wipe out the nascent nation, the subsequent wars with Arab neighbours where Israel was defending its existence, the influx of American right wing Jews in the 90s, the bus bombings in 2001-2003. All these events have led to a sense among many Israelis that they are embattled, surrounded by enemies, have only themselves to rely on to secure their existence and safety, a distrust of both Europe and Arab nations. It is not surprising in light of this that Israel acts the way it does.
And Palestinians? It is not hard to understand their position. Stateless, living lives of poverty where everything they build is regularly ripped apart by conflict they do not choose, led by groups who have little interest in the prosperity of the people. Their lives are nasty brutish and short and they really are stuck in some kind of obscene prison. How can you feel anything other than sorry for the children brought up in these circumstances, or their parents who simply want to live peaceful lives just like the rest of us. It is extremely sad that they are traduced by their leaders, their enemies and other Arabs who lend almost no support. Further, their enemies are the sons of Americans, Russians, Germans, French, white skinned colonialists from Europe in what is often described as the last colonial state.
I don't see things being fixed any time soon, it has gone too far and the divisions are too great for a Palestinian state to be created. Israel will not create a Palestine that fundamentally weakens its strategic position and that becomes the focus for renewed attempts to destroy Israel and the Palestinians can only struggle against an oppressive situation in which they are placed. Their only alternative is to give up and go where?
Getting back to the thread of the OP. Last week on the radio a spokesman from the Met stated that there had been more Anti Semitic incidents in the last 2 months than recorded in each of the last couple of years. With desecration of Jewish graves and swastikas daubed on headstones and synagogues. At least we should be thankful that the Jewish community are stoic in their persecution and do not over react to ignorant actions. Unlike others.