Anti Semitism?

ballysmate

Are we seeing a rise of anti Semitism in this country? There have been reports of its rise throughout Europe, but is it happening here?
Sainsbury's in Holborn, London removed kosher products from its shelves in the face of a pro Palestinian protest. Note that they removed kosher products and not Israeli products.
I am no more a fan of the kosher method of slaughter over the halal method, both can be needlessly cruel. But imagine if Sainsbury's had removed all halal food, thereby making it difficult for Muslims to follow their faith. All Sainsbury's have done is inconvenience local Jewish people in the local community.
There may be sympathy for the protesters view of the Gaza situation, but penalising Jewish people living in London is not the answer.
There was a demo at Tesco in Birmingham, whereby a pro Palestinian mob ran amok. Coincidence that Tesco was founded by Jack Cohen, born in London to Jewish immigrants? I hope so.

RDW

I doubt these particular incidents are evidence of anything much. Sounds like the local Sainsbury manager panicked and made a silly decision. The trouble at the Tesco branch looked pretty minor, with nothing to suggest it had anything to do with the ethnicity of the founder. But of course there's always a risk that those with an anti-semitic agenda will try to use events like the Gaza protests to their own advantage.

DeVlaeminck

If it is on the rise I've got to say I've not noticed it. I can't remember ever hearing an anti-semitic comment in my 46 years living here. Inevitably the way Israel has acted will provoke criticism but that criticism seems to be focused on the state rather than the religion. That's just my experience I can't claim that it's universal.

ilm_zero7

its not anti-semitic to be outraged at the genocide being committed by the israelis - what they are doing to the Palestinians is a disgrace - as is the behaviour of the western governments in allowing it to happen. I dont hate Jews, but I hate Israel and their persecution of the Palestinians who have the birth right to their homeland .

tangled_metal

It's just a stupid thing the local branch manager has done. nothing to do with antisemitism or the origins of the founder. Indeed i think we as a nation, on the whole, are probably less antisemitic than most of the other mainland European countries. Even the Northern European ones, which despite their more socially aware tendencies have a bigger problem with racism and religious intolerance, if the impression I get from news pieces and documentaries are to be believed. As far as I can tell most people in the UK separate the Israelis/Palestinian conflict from the Jewish religion.

There have been antisemitic attacks on Jewish cemeteries in the northwest in the past year but these attacks hit the news with outrage. An indication I think of the low levels of this problem here. However, the whole waters are muddied by a certain Jewish media lobby group (I wish I could remember their name). I understand they are founded in the US but are globally based and are active via social media. It works to support the Israelis position and uses the antisemitism card vigorously. This sounds like tin hat conspiracy but is true. Say if the Guardian writes a piece condemning Israelis actions on Gaza which is picked up in London say by a reader. That person, part of this group, posts a comment about this article. Then other members of this group when they log on and read it sign up and start posting comments in support of the Israelis position. A simple system but it has been abused and as a result there are groups monitoring them (from the Palestinian supporting side).

As I said it is muddied waters but it is still not antisemitism to be against the Israelis actions in Gaza and against the Palestinian people.

tangled_metal

ILM Zero7 wrote:

its not anti-semitic to be outraged at the genocide being committed by the israelis - what they are doing to the Palestinians is a disgrace - as is the behaviour of the western governments in allowing it to happen. I dont hate Jews, but I hate Israel and their persecution of the Palestinians who have the birth right to their homeland .

It is not agreed that is is genocide, but it is accepted that genocide is a very misunderstood, conflicted and narrowly defined that is it widely disputed what is or isn't genocide. The Palestinian situation is not considered or at least widely agreed to be genocide. There are some who dispute some of the last century's examples of genocide. Some argue only on case (the holocaust). Others contend the Armenians in about 1924 who were widely massacred by the Ottoman Turks. Others even dispute The Rwandan massacres, Srebrenica, etc. Examples currently with international courts are the Bosnian Serb leader (which if tried will be the first head of state to get tried for Genocide) and an ICC arrest warrant for the leader of Sudan over the massacres or genocide in the Dharfur region. The latter leader has travelled widely to signatory countries of the ICC convention without arrest. IIRC he's gone to UK, USA and other democratic countries with claims to believe in human rights without arrest. It is the responsibility for all signatories to arrest him so it is negligence.

t4tomo

Genocide suggest some sort of innocence on behalf of he victims.

The fact that Hammas is a terrorist organisation firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis doesn't make them particularly innocent.

You can argue when Israels response is OTT or not, particularly when the Palestinians haven't got anything even approaching Israels missile defence system, but let's not forget there are two sides at fault here, but one has much more military hardware.

ballysmate

DeVlaeminck wrote:

If it is on the rise I've got to say I've not noticed it. I can't remember ever hearing an anti-semitic comment in my 46 years living here. Inevitably the way Israel has acted will provoke criticism but that criticism seems to be focused on the state rather than the religion. That's just my experience I can't claim that it's universal.

To be honest I haven't noticed it either. There again I'm not Jewish and I don't think I know anyone who is Jewish, but I don't tend to inquire about people's religious beliefs.
But having read about the Sainsbury/Tesco events, a bit of internet searching does show an increase of antisemitism but perhaps not to the level of other European countries.
People who disagree with the Israeli state seem not to be able to distinguish between Israel and Jews of whatever nationality, living thousands of miles away.

rolf_f

t4tomo wrote:

Genocide suggest some sort of innocence on behalf of he victims.

The fact that Hammas is a terrorist organisation firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis doesn't make them particularly innocent.

You can argue when Israels response is OTT or not, particularly when the Palestinians haven't got anything even approaching Israels missile defence system, but let's not forget there are two sides at fault here, but one has much more military hardware.

This is the point. Hamas is a terrorist organisation so you can expect it to behave in that manner. You should expect a better response from Israel but it behaves in exactly the same way as Hamas. The comments each make about each other are largely interchangeable - the only difference is in the relative number of deaths on each side.

Paulie W

Interesting article: http://online.wsj.com/articles/brendan- ... 1408042650

guinea

Anti-Semitism reports rise as Israel's incursions into the Occupied Territories increases. In general the trend is down, but there are jumps every time there is new action: http://www.thecst.org.uk/

Interesting, anti-Arab reports also increase in Israel during the same period.

http://content.outbrain.com/#/l6/http:/ ... t=27270910

tangled_metal

Actually genocide is independent of guilt. To make my point, the ethnic group that the Bosnian Serb leaders massacred at Srebrenica had been combatants, well part of their populace at least. That does not make their genocide cease to make the grade as genocide it is independent. By arguing that the Hamas section of the populace is one guilty side of the Gaza situation means that it can not be called genocide is linking two separate aspects of what is going on there. Genocide is simply about what the result is, if something is so extreme on one side then even if it was a fight with opposing sides it can be genocide if the result is extremely negative against one side. Does the fact that Jewish people fought in WWII against the Nazis mean the holocaust was not genocide? No of course not. Of course there are other reasons why the Palestinian situation is not genocide.

However there are arguments that the Israelis state has committed genocide elsewhere, admittedly by proxy. The Lebanese militias in that desparate conflict that were under Israelis command (the late head of state of Israel was commander of the region at the time) committed a massacre against the opposing side based around a football ground. The IDF, who were there in the area at the time on Lebanese territory, directed the fleeing refugees towards the ground for safety then the militias knew where to find them!! It's a real mess out there and that is no mistake.

davecara

t4tomo wrote:

The fact that Hammas is a terrorist organisation firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis doesn't make them particularly innocent.

That's a word that gets bandied about faaar too much, especially by western media

ter-ror-ism


[ter-uh-riz-uh m] Spell Syllables

Examples
Word Origin

noun

1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

tangled_metal

Ballysmate wrote:

But having read about the Sainsbury/Tesco events, a bit of internet searching does show an increase of antisemitism but perhaps not to the level of other European countries.
People who disagree with the Israeli state seem not to be able to distinguish between Israel and Jews of whatever nationality, living thousands of miles away.

I wonder if that internet search really shows an increase or is it just easier to find? A lot of internet comment is stuff people spout (I'm a great one for it too) to provoke reaction or self aggrandisation. Whether it is truly antisemitism or not can be argued both ways.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the last quoted comment above. People with opinions from either side of the Israelis/Palestinian argument are distinguishing between the Israelis/Palestinians and the Jewish/Muslim religions. comments on news media sites don't use Israel and Jews as interchangeable words for the same thing do they?? I've not seen that and I'm a serious lurker on news media pieces about the Palestinian situation. I've got friends too who are on the edge of the activism in support of the Palestinian peoples and they are not antisemitic. The links they have sent me to about that also have no antisemitic tones at all. It is out there but in the vast majority Israel and the Jewish religion is separate in the UK. I can not say that this is the same in other European countries though.

tangled_metal

BTW there is a class of war crime that has been used as an accusation against the IDF in the past that is related to the targeting of civilians. That is a war crime not just a bit OTT. Not sure if it can be proven this time but it is a known offence committed by IDF in the past. Unfortunately international courts are at the mercy of sovereign states. Unless one side wins convincingly or there is a truly powerful nation state involvement pushing for it, it is very rare for war crimes or crimes against humanity to reach court. Especially those involving the armed forces and political establishment of a democratic country. I think the last was the General Mladic of the Bosnian Serbs or perhaps a few others. Those cases are all based on one side winning and the commitment of one or more permanent members of the UN security council. As long as USA, Britain, France are there there will never be an Israelis tried for those crimes (also Russia too as they supply Israel too and do nicely out of it).

thegreatdivide

ILM Zero7 wrote:

its not anti-semitic to be outraged at the genocide being committed by the israelis - what they are doing to the Palestinians is a disgrace - as is the behaviour of the western governments in allowing it to happen. I dont hate Jews, but I hate Israel and their persecution of the Palestinians who have the birth right to their homeland .

Agreed.

If this was WWII Hammas would be Resistance Fighters.

Isreal is a total disgrace.

ballysmate

I made the original post because I genuinely don't know, because as I stated earlier I don't have any personal experience. It was a genuine question.
How reliable the evidence is, I don't know.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 31174.html

http://rt.com/uk/180600-gaza-police-jews-tension/


But perhaps not as bad as European neighbours.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... lence.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28522336


A view from across the pond.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/brendan- ... 1408042650

mamba80

if hamas stopped firing rockets at Israel, recognised their right to exist, then there wouldn't have been an invasion, these poor people wouldn't be dead and Israel would lift its blockade.
War crimes trials? I am all for that, lets include Bush and Blair and the leaders of Hamas as well.

We are all v happy to buy our latest smart phone or bike/parts from China but ignore the terrible crimes China has committed in Tibet and against its own people (these deaths far out number anything the Israelis have done (so I assume all those with an anti Israeli stance will boycott Chinese made goods?) ........ hypocrisy springs to mind - Israel is an easy target, jews have been the "cause" of all the worlds evils after all :idea:

thegreatdivide

FWIW my Jewish mates think what Israel is doing is a fuxking disgrace too.

ilm_zero7

t4tomo wrote:

Genocide suggest some sort of innocence on behalf of he victims.

The fact that Hamas is a terrorist organisation firing rockets into Israel on a daily basis doesn't make them particularly innocent.
.

reality check - 3 Israeli civilians killed this year by Hamas, over 1500 Palestinians in Gaza killed by the invading force, several times more made homeless.... you cant believe even a two figure percentage of these were Hamas. under these circumstances when you are being persecuted by Israel (apparently doing the USA's killing because they are so islam-phobic?) you have no body else to turn to - The ghetto that is Gaza, denied food, rebuilding materials, power, etc what else could you do but turn to the resistance ? They cant leave, they are not allowed to and ha?ve no passports !

ilm_zero7

open your eyes and ears to non-western media on this topic - articles like this are very moderate and balanced from Abu Dhabi - noting the 400+ children killed by the Israelis in the conflict (presumably all holding guns according to Israel) http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/comme ... -tv-screen

DeVlaeminck

mamba80 wrote:

if hamas stopped firing rockets at Israel, recognised their right to exist,:

How much of Israel would they have to recognise - what borders ?

As far as anti-semitism goes - there is a problem in that the Jewish diaspora has undoubtedly influenced policy throughout the West in favour of Israel so while Israel and Judaism are not the same thing neither are they two separate entities.

tangled_metal

mamba80 wrote:

if hamas stopped firing rockets at Israel, recognised their right to exist, then there wouldn't have been an invasion, these poor people wouldn't be dead and Israel would lift its blockade.
:

Has Israel recognized the rights of the Palestinians? IIRC there were a few Security Council resolutions (now left top lapse of course) that required Israel to carry out a few actions including recognizing the Palestinians rights and reimbursing them for land taken. Other things too. I think you will find that a lot of exiled Palestinians keep one item safe, passing it down father to son and would be the first thing rescued in a fire. That item is a key. Nothing important but it is the key to the door of their old house taken from them in the early days of the creation of the Israeli state.

I think you have to accept that as long as supporters of the Israelis state insist on the Palestinians making the first concession / action you will never get any peace. Take N. Ireland as an example. It was the willingness of the Westminster politicians to agree to meet the Republicans that lead towards the Good Friday Agreement. For many decades it was policy never to have direct talks with the Republicans. Whilst Israel and the Palestinians are having direct talks it still needs one side to make the first big concession. At one time the Israelis made a concession for them when they stopped settlements and even dismantled the smaller, easier ones to evict. Small concession from the Palestinian eyes but it got a reciprocal concession in the recognition of the Israelis state by the PA (Palestinian Authority).

Of course you can not argue that a sovereign state is comparable to a territory (or whatever the various Palestinian enclaves are called). The PA controlled areas are closest to being a state and indeed that was why they have managed to set off on the process towards unilaterally being recognized as a state by the UN - observer status. Perhaps recognition of a two state system by both sides is the way. Palestinians (all factions) recognize Israel at the same time that Israel recognizes Palestine as a state (and allows them to exist independently).

Always two sides to this and just applying the term antisemitic to the Palestinian side and those who support it is not accepting that there has been evil done by both (and still is being done).

I very much doubt in this modern age that any form of modern, consumerist society could live without products from a country that commits human rights abuses. That includes not just China, Israel but also USA and the UK. No modern nation has clean hands. How long ago was the MauMau suppression? How long ago was the US atrocities with napalm in Vietnam? How long ago was the death penalty applied that took 2 hours to kill the condemned prisoner in the USA? how long ago was Guantanamo Bay allowed to waterboard? Blood on all our hands but that does not stop trying to make progress, one bit at a time.

Paulie W

Tangled Metal wrote:

I think you have to accept that as long as supporters of the Israelis state insist on the Palestinians making the first concession / action you will never get any peace. Take N. Ireland as an example. It was the willingness of the Westminster politicians to agree to meet the Republicans that lead towards the Good Friday Agreement. For many decades it was policy never to have direct talks with the Republicans. Whilst Israel and the Palestinians are having direct talks it still needs one side to make the first big concession. At one time the Israelis made a concession for them when they stopped settlements and even dismantled the smaller, easier ones to evict. Small concession from the Palestinian eyes but it got a reciprocal concession in the recognition of the Israelis state by the PA (Palestinian Authority).

I couldnt agree more. There was a time that Northern Ireland seemed as intractable a problem as Gaza. It needs Israel to make the initial concession whatever the rights and the wrongs of the conflict, whatever its history.

tangled_metal

People have mentioned higher rates of death among the Palestinians but it should be noted that it is hard to distinguish civilians from combatants in those figures published by the likes of UN. However it is easy with children. Children are covered by there own unique human rights under international law. According to UN figures between 2000 and 2007 there were 971 children killed (18% of those killed in that period). Out of these 88% were Palestinian and 12% Israeli. There is no disputing these figures are showing a statistical discrepancy between the dangers of Palestinian aggression over the Israelis aggression. That is 854 Palestinian children compared to 116 Israelis children or 7.3:1 ratio. That is what state aggression compared to terrorist aggression means in real terms. not good whatever way you look at it because there are 971 kids dead in that period who should not be!!

finchy

Tangled Metal wrote:

However, the whole waters are muddied by a certain Jewish media lobby group (I wish I could remember their name). I understand they are founded in the US but are globally based and are active via social media. It works to support the Israelis position and uses the antisemitism card vigorously.

You're probably thinking of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL). AIPAC (American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee) are very active in the US Congress.

I think that a major part of the problem is that on both sides, the armed forces (IDF, Hamas) feel secure in the fact that they will always have foreign backers to bail them out. The USA will send a load of weapons to Israel and Hamas will get support from Iran, so where is the incentive to press for peace? As long as the violence continues, the two groups mentioned will continue to hold positions of power and privilege in Israel/Gaza.

ai_1

mamba80 wrote:

if hamas stopped firing rockets at Israel, recognised their right to exist, then there wouldn't have been an invasion, these poor people wouldn't be dead and Israel would lift its blockade.....

I think you need to have another look at what's really happening.
Your comment above is, in my opinion, very over-simplistic and very inaccurate. I think the Israeli actions towards Palestine are a disgrace and make the aggression by Hamas nearly inevitable. That's not to say I support Hamas, I do not. Both Hamas and the Israeli leadership gain from these conflicts. Everyone else suffers. Nothing is a better recruitment tool for Hamas than Palestinian deaths inflicted by Israeli forces. Nothing is better for stirring up fear and support for the Israeli military action than the Hamas attacks.
It's not ridiculous to think the Israelis are happy to provoke Hamas attacks and Hamas are very willing to oblige. Both leadership groups gain from the repeated cycle of escalation, ceasefire and re-entrenchment that has continued for decades.

The Palestinians are treated disgracefully and of course this leads to aggression. I don't think religion has very much to do with it really. It's just the usual "them and us" mentality. It doesn't matter how you draw the boundaries it's always wrong. Nationality, religion, race, politics, language.....even sport! Once you start putting too much importance on these things and drawing lines between different groups you're going to have trouble. Sometimes a little, often a lot.

Just look at the language in this thread for example. Anyone criticising Israel is presumed to support Hamas! Absurd. I'm more than capable of looking at a situation consisting of two adversaries and empathising with both, criticising both and supporting both or neither.

How do you defeat Hamas? By taking away their ammunition. That's not rockets or bullets, it's public support. Treat palestinians with some respect and violence from Hamas will receive nothing but condemnation, they will no longer be able to recruit from the palestinian population, they will vanish. The same goes for nearly all terrorist groups and/or resistance fighters. It's not giving in, it's actually the right thing to do.

Pross

ILM Zero7 wrote:

open your eyes and ears to non-western media on this topic - articles like this are very moderate and balanced from Abu Dhabi - noting the 400+ children killed by the Israelis in the conflict (presumably all holding guns according to Israel) http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/comme ... -tv-screen

I believe that the reporting of the situation in Palestine in the UK has changed greatly over the last decade from a very strong pro-Israeli point of view to, arguably, a slight bias to the Palestinian side.

Personally I think both sides are as bad as each other but, as someone else said, one side has far more firepower. Basically there's a situation where two groups of people think the other shouldn't exist and therefore shouldn't have anywhere to live. The losers, as ever, are the people stuck in the middle who just want to get on with their lives in peace. All Israel's policy will do is turn more of the everyday Palestinian population into radicals but then that works to the favour of hardline Israelis as there will be more terrorist attacks to justify their stance. The only way it will change is for the moderate population on both sides to vote out those who want to avoid peace at all costs. It briefly look like it might go that way 20 years ago but at present there seems to be no hope.

kajjal

Paulie W wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

I think you have to accept that as long as supporters of the Israelis state insist on the Palestinians making the first concession / action you will never get any peace. Take N. Ireland as an example. It was the willingness of the Westminster politicians to agree to meet the Republicans that lead towards the Good Friday Agreement. For many decades it was policy never to have direct talks with the Republicans. Whilst Israel and the Palestinians are having direct talks it still needs one side to make the first big concession. At one time the Israelis made a concession for them when they stopped settlements and even dismantled the smaller, easier ones to evict. Small concession from the Palestinian eyes but it got a reciprocal concession in the recognition of the Israelis state by the PA (Palestinian Authority).

I couldnt agree more. There was a time that Northern Ireland seemed as intractable a problem as Gaza. It needs Israel to make the initial concession whatever the rights and the wrongs of the conflict, whatever its history.

This is exactly the point. The state of Israel is invading another country with tanks, jets, helicopter gunships, various armoured vehicles and continually bombarding them with artillery. As well as this they have closed its sea, air and land borders. The state of Israel is the one that needs to bring peace rather than creating another generation of hatred on both sides. People with nothing to lose will stop at nothing and until the state of Israel makes the first significant steps nothing will change.

nathancom

There has undoubtably been an increase in Anti-Semitism in recent years, with spikes co-inciding with Israeli incursions into Gaza. However, today the perpetrators appear to be immigrants to European countries from a range of North African and Middle Eastern countries, not a hangover of the old European Anti-Semitism, so I don't think it is sensible to lump them together. Obviously this subject is sensitive in Europe owing to the holocaust but I think, as this thread has progressed, Israel vs Palestine is the nub of the issue. I also believe that since Israel was created as a Jewish State then it is not surprising that its actions have consequences for all Jews. I am not saying it is fair or reasonable, just not surprising - in the same way muslims are subject to islamophobia in the West due to the actions of extremist groups.

Regarding Israel, I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding in the West. Most conflicts are the result of a set of historical precedents that determine each group to engage in conflict. What are Israel's? The struggle by the early Zionist settlers to carve a homeland free from European Anti-Semistism in the 1920s, the Holocaust and the subsequent immigration into Israel of many of the survivors, Arab mistreatment of Jews following WW2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries), the War for Independence in 1948 where all the Arab countries joined to wipe out the nascent nation, the subsequent wars with Arab neighbours where Israel was defending its existence, the influx of American right wing Jews in the 90s, the bus bombings in 2001-2003. All these events have led to a sense among many Israelis that they are embattled, surrounded by enemies, have only themselves to rely on to secure their existence and safety, a distrust of both Europe and Arab nations. It is not surprising in light of this that Israel acts the way it does.

And Palestinians? It is not hard to understand their position. Stateless, living lives of poverty where everything they build is regularly ripped apart by conflict they do not choose, led by groups who have little interest in the prosperity of the people. Their lives are nasty brutish and short and they really are stuck in some kind of obscene prison. How can you feel anything other than sorry for the children brought up in these circumstances, or their parents who simply want to live peaceful lives just like the rest of us. It is extremely sad that they are traduced by their leaders, their enemies and other Arabs who lend almost no support. Further, their enemies are the sons of Americans, Russians, Germans, French, white skinned colonialists from Europe in what is often described as the last colonial state.

I don't see things being fixed any time soon, it has gone too far and the divisions are too great for a Palestinian state to be created. Israel will not create a Palestine that fundamentally weakens its strategic position and that becomes the focus for renewed attempts to destroy Israel and the Palestinians can only struggle against an oppressive situation in which they are placed. Their only alternative is to give up and go where?

mr_goo

I have never understood the historic antipathy towards Jews. Anti Semitism was rife in the UK and France (especially) right up until the end of the 19th century. Was this awful persecution of a faith over centuries in Europe the reason why there was an Israeli State created in Palestine by the UN in 1947/48. Surely there were enough intelligent people around to realise that this would be problematic. Why didn't the western allies push back the Red Army thus creating an enlarged Western Europe with plenty of room for the Jews to re-establish their lives after WW2. I am not an historian, but some things I just don't get.

Getting back to the thread of the OP. Last week on the radio a spokesman from the Met stated that there had been more Anti Semitic incidents in the last 2 months than recorded in each of the last couple of years. With desecration of Jewish graves and swastikas daubed on headstones and synagogues. At least we should be thankful that the Jewish community are stoic in their persecution and do not over react to ignorant actions. Unlike others.