Fitness Impasse

Unkle77

I have a daily commute of 20-odd miles, I’ve been doing it religiously since June (prior to that work did not allow me to be consistent) but I have seen little to no improvement in ability.

I’m pretty sure I'm eating enough as my weight has remained constant, I think I’m giving enough rest to allow my muscles to recover, if I push one day I take it easy the next, plus no cycling during the weekend.

This is the natural pace I cycle at
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/564693824
This is the same route but trying to keep my heart rate in zone 2
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/564693892

Last summer I successfully lowered my heart rate to 70% and below with my natural pace on a flat bar sirus comp.

The last winter put the final nail into that bike so I now have a Verenti Belief, I've also finally managed to maintain breathing through my nose without feeling light headed.

Could the increased muscle use (from the more aggressive posture) and lower oxygen intake be the cause of the increased heart rate?

On a side note I initially had issues with my bike setup which caused pain in my knees but I have resolved this. With a combination of raising my seat and not allowing my heal to drop while pedalling (I believe this was causing my knee to roll).

Basically how I want to know how to move on, I can’t currently spare any more time for cycling so it needs to fit into the commute.

I’ve read through this http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/training-heart-rate-monitor-basics-28838/ and while I agree I’m not sticking to any one of those sessions I can see my approach is not too far out.

Where can I improve?

homers_double

Pedal harder.

jgsi

Google search brings up things like
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/ ... mute-28799
basically... you are asking for a lot of advice and effort for someone to plan how you can train...
Google is free and we are all in same boat as to how to get/maintain fitness andstave off the grim reaper.

JayKosta

It might be that 'recovery' time is the limiting factor. Doing hard training on a commute ride isn't practical because of the activities you need to do immediately after the ride.

Perhaps you can arrange your (weekend?) schedule to do dedicated hard training in addition to the commute riding.

Also, age and genetic 'athletic ability' is a factor for everyone.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

dw300

Well I'd suggest opening your mouth firstly.

Also, is your average cadence including zeros, or excluding? 60-65rpm is much too low if its a non-zero average.

In conjunction with the first point, you seem to be doing the opposite of what is suggested to develop speed through endurance, namely restricting oxygen use with a focus on pedal torque. Whereas you should be letting your heart and lungs give your muscles as much oxygen as they can so you can spin fast. This means you will not dig into glycogen reserves, and your legs will develop more capillaries and mitochondria. Cycling is not about hypertrophy of muscle fibre.

Also, if your commute is 10 there, 10 back youre looking about 40-45mins each way. But it takes a good 20 minutes for your body to reach maximal fat mobilisation, so youre not up to speed till then. Basically, no matter how good you are, you're gona feel bad for the first half of each commute (quarter if its 20 miles each way) if you're trying to hammer it straight out of the driveway.

You need more variety too if possible.

Unkle77

Thanks for the replies

JGSI - Thanks, I'll read that tonight

Jay - when you say activities after the commute, do you mean the sitting, essentially motionless for the next 8 hours?

dw300 -
What cadence should I be looking for? I try and keep it above 70 but let off when my heart rate goes above 85%
I never really feel bad in the beginning part of the ride, if anything I feel better then start to lag at the end, especially on the way home.
As for the breathing, if my body tells me it needs more then I breathe through my mouth, but generally I'm nowhere near out of breathe but I'll keep this in mind and experiment.
I'll try and setup alternating days of exertion or do you mean I need to intersperse longer rides?

drlodge

Unkle77 wrote:

What cadence should I be looking for? I try and keep it above 70 but let off when my heart rate goes above 85%
I never really feel bad in the beginning part of the ride, if anything I feel better then start to lag at the end, especially on the way home.
As for the breathing, if my body tells me it needs more then I breathe through my mouth, but generally I'm nowhere near out of breathe but I'll keep this in mind and experiment.

This indicates to me that your legs are getting knackered way before you cardiovascular system is anywhere near capacity, and reflects on your cadence being too low.

Cadence should be around 90 average so aim for that. Lower your gears so you're doing the same speed but pedelling faster. If I'm putting in some effort its always my lungs that run out of breath first not my legs hurting. Going up a steep hill may be different but we're talking commuting here so I assume its relatively flat.

sloppyschleckonds

drlodge wrote:

Cadence should be around 90 average so aim for that. Lower your gears so you're doing the same speed but pedelling faster. If I'm putting in some effort its always my lungs that run out of breath first not my legs hurting.

So an average 90 cadence is too high for you then?

Jules Winnfield

drlodge wrote:

Cadence should be around 90 average so aim for that.

I can't see how anyone can say "Your cadence should be such and such RPM" to anyone because surely every cyclist is different and they will find their own natural rhythm. Some want to spin whereas some prefer churning a bigger gear.

davidof

Jules Winnfield wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Cadence should be around 90 average so aim for that.

I can't see how anyone can say "Your cadence should be such and such RPM" to anyone because surely every cyclist is different and they will find their own natural rhythm. Some want to spin whereas some prefer churning a bigger gear.

The poster was giving advice based on the data the first poster gave: low cadence and cardiovascular limited. 90 would seem like a good initial target to see if that fixes the problem.

I would suggest mixing the commute (16km) with some intervals although it would help if the rider posted his age, weight and height (and sex).

NeXXus

drlodge wrote:

Unkle77 wrote:

What cadence should I be looking for? I try and keep it above 70 but let off when my heart rate goes above 85%
I never really feel bad in the beginning part of the ride, if anything I feel better then start to lag at the end, especially on the way home.
As for the breathing, if my body tells me it needs more then I breathe through my mouth, but generally I'm nowhere near out of breathe but I'll keep this in mind and experiment.

This indicates to me that your legs are getting knackered way before you cardiovascular system is anywhere near capacity, and reflects on your cadence being too low.

Cadence should be around 90 average so aim for that. Lower your gears so you're doing the same speed but pedelling faster. If I'm putting in some effort its always my lungs that run out of breath first not my legs hurting. Going up a steep hill may be different but we're talking commuting here so I assume its relatively flat.

No it should average whatever you're comfortable with.

drlodge

NeXXus wrote:

No it should average whatever you're comfortable with.

In the context of this thread, that's rubbish, the OP wants to stretch himself and become fitter so by definition he doesn't want to be "comfortable" on the bike. His problem is that his cadence is too low: his legs are giving out and his cardiovascular system isn't being stretched. To solve this, he needs to increase his cadence so his legs are pushing less and his cardiovascular system is working more. A 90 cadence is a guide, he might find that a stretch to start with but it is just a guide - something to aim for.

NeXXus

drlodge wrote:

NeXXus wrote:

No it should average whatever you're comfortable with.

In the context of this thread, that's rubbish, the OP wants to stretch himself and become fitter so by definition he doesn't want to be "comfortable" on the bike. His problem is that his cadence is too low: his legs are giving out and his cardiovascular system isn't being stretched. To solve this, he needs to increase his cadence so his legs are pushing less and his cardiovascular system is working more. A 90 cadence is a guide, he might find that a stretch to start with but it is just a guide - something to aim for.

Why aim for 90? That's a fairly one size fits all number for something that is totally individual.

The issue is more likely to be the static 20mi commute than anything else.

simon_e

NeXXus wrote:

drlodge wrote:

NeXXus wrote:

No it should average whatever you're comfortable with.

In the context of this thread, that's rubbish, the OP wants to stretch himself and become fitter so by definition he doesn't want to be "comfortable" on the bike. His problem is that his cadence is too low: his legs are giving out and his cardiovascular system isn't being stretched. To solve this, he needs to increase his cadence so his legs are pushing less and his cardiovascular system is working more. A 90 cadence is a guide, he might find that a stretch to start with but it is just a guide - something to aim for.

Why aim for 90? That's a fairly one size fits all number for something that is totally individual.

The issue is more likely to be the static 20mi commute than anything else.

It's a recommendation, not a legal requirement. :roll:

Perhaps if it was 5 miles your 'static' comment may be relevant but if someone isn't get fitter on a 20 mile commute then they simply aren't riding hard enough for the body to change.

To the OP - an hour or so in zone 2 will not achieve much. What you can do depends on the nature of your route (junctions, traffic lights etc) but you need to make it more of a workout 3 times a week.

I'd try doing three or four 4-5 mins intervals fairly hard (zone 4 to z5) with some steady zone 2 in between. Or 15-20mins medium-hard (z3 to z4), 10mins easier then a second 20min. Work on a smooth and powerful pedalling technique as well as the cadence. Take deep, rhythmic breaths during the interval. Once you are acquainted with the sensations you should be able to ride more on PE (perceived exertion) rather than watch the HRM.

If you want to lose weight then eat less processed food and more fresh fruit and veg. On the easy/steady mornings don't eat before you leave the house, have only water, then eat breakfast at work.

cyco2

Simon E wrote:

recommendation, not a legal requirement. :roll:

Perhaps if it was 5 miles your 'static' comment may be relevant but if someone isn't get fitter on a 20 mile commute then they simply aren't riding hard enough for the body to change.

To the OP - an hour or so in zone 2 will not achieve much. What you can do depends on the nature of your route (junctions, traffic lights etc) but you need to make it more of a workout 3 times a week.

I'd try doing three or four 4-5 mins intervals fairly hard (zone 4 to z5) with some steady zone 2 in between. Or 15-20mins medium-hard (z3 to z4), 10mins easier then a second 20min. Work on a smooth and powerful pedalling technique as well as the cadence. Take deep, rhythmic breaths during the interval. Once you are acquainted with the sensations you should be able to ride more on PE (perceived exertion) rather than watch the HRM.

If you want to lose weight then eat less processed food and more fresh fruit and veg. On the easy/steady mornings don't eat before you leave the house, have only water, then eat breakfast at work.

+1 for all that.

cyco2

Simon E wrote:

recommendation, not a legal requirement. :roll:

Perhaps if it was 5 miles your 'static' comment may be relevant but if someone isn't get fitter on a 20 mile commute then they simply aren't riding hard enough for the body to change.

To the OP - an hour or so in zone 2 will not achieve much. What you can do depends on the nature of your route (junctions, traffic lights etc) but you need to make it more of a workout 3 times a week.

I'd try doing three or four 4-5 mins intervals fairly hard (zone 4 to z5) with some steady zone 2 in between. Or 15-20mins medium-hard (z3 to z4), 10mins easier then a second 20min. Work on a smooth and powerful pedalling technique as well as the cadence. Take deep, rhythmic breaths during the interval. Once you are acquainted with the sensations you should be able to ride more on PE (perceived exertion) rather than watch the HRM.

If you want to lose weight then eat less processed food and more fresh fruit and veg. On the easy/steady mornings don't eat before you leave the house, have only water, then eat breakfast at work.

+1 for all that.

Unkle77

Thanks for all the input!

My commute is pretty straight forward, its essentially the same road all the way into Guildford, outside of Guildford there is only two roundabouts which are open, so you can hit them at speed most of the time, its only in the last 3km that I have to deal with a whole host of lights and junctions.

As for me, I'm 30, 80kg and 6'2", had a fairly docile life, suffered from something asma-like, up until university.
As for the diet, never been a meat and two veg person, always had a high fruit and veg diet, started consciously increasing my protein intake 3 years ago and that made a difference. Increased strength, energy, less lethargy/aching the next day etc.

In that 16km there is probably under 5km of "flat" road, its constantly up and down hills, not big hills but it does mean very frequent gear changes using the whole range of gears. I've been trying to increase my cadence this week and it has worked, I do feel pushed and on a good day I can get an average of 80.

However, this has introduced another problem, at these high cadences I'm finding the front gear (compact) a challenge, while at 80+ in the top gear, to drop down, for a hill (I'm already well in to the bottom half of the rear) I require a cadence I just cant produce to keep moving forward while I change the rear gears up to a point where I'm spinning at 80+. Is this what everyone does or am I missing a trick?

Thanks for all the help though, due to the hills I do have hard zones, I think that is be best way to focus myself, adding one flat where I can really push too. I'll think about adding a detour over to godalming to my routine, going up and down some proper hills.

Cheers!

JayKosta

Unkle77 wrote:

...
However, this has introduced another problem, at these high cadences I'm finding the front gear (compact) a challenge, while at 80+ in the top gear, to drop down, for a hill (I'm already well in to the bottom half of the rear) I require a cadence I just cant produce to keep moving forward while I change the rear gears up to a point where I'm spinning at 80+. Is this what everyone does or am I missing a trick?
...

==================================================
For hills, shift into an easier gear slightly BEFORE you actually need it. That way the tension on the chain and derailleur is not overly high, and the shift will be easier.

If you are approaching a steep hill, quickly get into the gear you'll need for the most difficult section.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

drlodge

JayKosta wrote:

Unkle77 wrote:

...
However, this has introduced another problem, at these high cadences I'm finding the front gear (compact) a challenge, while at 80+ in the top gear, to drop down, for a hill (I'm already well in to the bottom half of the rear) I require a cadence I just cant produce to keep moving forward while I change the rear gears up to a point where I'm spinning at 80+. Is this what everyone does or am I missing a trick?
...

==================================================
For hills, shift into an easier gear slightly BEFORE you actually need it. That way the tension on the chain and derailleur is not overly high, and the shift will be easier.

If you are approaching a steep hill, quickly get into the gear you'll need for the most difficult section.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

I think what Unkle77 is referring to, is the sharp change in ratios when changing from the big (50) to small(34) chainring. The trick here is to do the "double change" smoothly so you change both the front chainring (big to small) and rear cassette (larger to smaller) at the same time to esentially give you a very similar gear and hence no dramatic change in cadence.

Same applies when going downhill but vice versa.

Unkle77

Yes I meant the change in ratios. OK I'll speed up the transition, though I thought this double change significantly increased the risk of the chain coming off or jamming....

drlodge

Unkle77 wrote:

Yes I meant the change in ratios. OK I'll speed up the transition, though I thought this double change significantly increased the risk of the chain coming off or jamming....

It takes a bit of practice to get it smooth and into the correct gear in one move. Certainly you need to ease off the pedals while keeping them rotating. Its easier on Campag Ultrashift since you can change several rear gears with one movement of the lever. To start with try changing the front then the rear immediately afterwords (or rear then front), then you can speed things up and do them together.

dw300

On a compact I usually shift down a sprocket or two just before I drop the chain onto the small chainring.

It feels to me that doing this about 0.5-1 second before the front shift keeps things smooth. Changing them together could end up with a mechanical if your gears arent shifting perfectly anyway.

keef66

Me too; drop a couple of cogs at the rear so it's momentarily harder, then drop onto the small ring at the front.

Unkle77

So its been a while with this new method and its been interesting.

-Using the big ring at the front does not fit into the regime any more, descents are too short and to use it on the flat parts the rear is in the bigger half with the chain at a bad angle and sprockets complaining. So I use the small ring and 9 of the rear gears, the bike is happier and it suits me fine with a cadence between 85-115.
-my easy cadence now sits at 85+ and I can keep my heart rate sub 75% when I really want to
-my heart rate on my commute is in zone 3, except for a few hills where I really push, for these I hit zone 5
-I'm pretty sure my legs are stronger and my knees feel happier.

-Not sure when I will start using the big ring again, in the last week I tried it a couple of times and the cadence dropped and heart rate went up, as you'd expect, but it was not a comfortable ride with my heart rate at the top of zone 3 as a minimum and a bad gear ratio.

I'll see what another month of this will do.