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tubs vs tubeless

ukjimukjim Posts: 39
edited September 2014 in Cyclocross
I have used tubs a couple of times before rolling the front one off in a race and crashing (dodgy glue job from the shop)

I then lost my nerve with them and moved to clinchers.

however clinchers dont have the lovely feel of tubs

I am thinking of getting some tubs built for the race season and getting a proper job done on the gluing.

how would tubeless compare to tubs?
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  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,777
    In terms of feel it doesn't compare, in terms of pressure you can run, it's pretty similar. That's not tubeless fault, it's just that tubulars have normally a higher TPI count than clincher tyres. Not many tubular rims wide enough to be glued safely left on the market though... Velocity Major Tom springs to mind
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Tubeless suffer from 'burping' at low pressure so are difficult to get to run reliably at low pressure - not helped by the fact that tubeless tyres have a firmer sidewalls in comparison to a decent tubular.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • ukjimukjim Posts: 39
    cheers ugo funnily enough i was looking at the major toms on BLB.

    I am hunting down some hope hubs on ebay at the moment.
  • I was wondering similar things.

    I've moved to disc now on my cross bike, and only have clincher disc wheels. I do have my old tub wheels though (Mavic Paris-Roubaix SSC rims), so was thinking of stripping down, and rebuilding them onto some hope hubs. Alternative is to build some tubeless wheels instead, which might make more sense given the amount of racing I do.

    By the way, if I do unbuild, I will have a Hope rear hub for sale (and a front 80's Mavic SSC hub!)
  • ukjimukjim Posts: 39
    ugo sorry to ask a dull question but:

    have you built up the major toms

    and if so is the erd (598) on the blb site correct? I know measuring oneself is recommended but I need to get the wheels ready asap...

    cheers
    J
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,777
    No, I haven't...
    Velocity quoted ERD (taken from their website) are generally reliable
  • ukjimukjim Posts: 39
    No, I haven't...
    Velocity quoted ERD (taken from their website) are generally reliable
    cheers buddy
  • ukjimukjim Posts: 39
    I kind of know the answer to this already but:

    is there any reason other than looking flash for using planet x carbon tubulars?

    100 gs weight saving over major toms must be irrelevant when covered in mud....

    the mamil in me wants silly carbon rims but
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,777
    Deep rims shed mud better than shallow ones... but Planet X wheels are not very durable, due to low quality bearings, mediocre spokes and inconsistent build quality.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    You're accelerating and decelerating a lot, so rim weight probably makes more of a difference than any other cycling discipline except maybe hill climbing. The thinking behing deep rims is that, when you're riding through deep mud, the mud doesn't flow over the top of the rim; this means you don't have to displace all that mud again when the rim comes out of the mud.

    The question is how good you need to be, for this to make a difference. I personally think the weight saving is worth having, if it doesn't cost too much, the deep rims less so (though I've just built myself a pair anyway!)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ukjimukjim Posts: 39
    so for arguments sake if I had £500 to drop on a set of disc wheels (without tyres) and I was set on tubulars what would be a good bet? Other than putting together a set of novatec d711/2 with major toms?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    I've just built a pair with D711/712 hubs and Farsports 50mm rims, which came in around £300, and just over 1300g; that's with lightweight (DT Revolution) spokes on the low tension side, and aluminium nipples. I haven't ridden them yet, but the rims came highly recommended by a forumite who rode them last season (and consistently whipped my a*se). Assuming they don't fall apart, I don't see any benefit in building anything more expensive than that. My thinking would be that if you have more cash to burn, it's probably more worthwhile to spend it on additional wheels than pricier ones.

    The more traditional option would be something like Mavic Reflex rims. By the time you've added extra spokes, this comes in something like 200g heavier, but rather cheaper (I have also built a pair of these).

    The hubs are pretty good for the money. The bearings don't last forever, but are cheap as chips and easy to replace.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,777
    Take Major Tom 28 holes and take a carbon tubular rim from China custom drilled at 28 H... the weight difference is probably 100 grams for the pair...
    Is it worth it to go through the hassle of buying from China, knowing any problem will be a monumental PITA to deal with?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    The flip side of that argument is that tubular rims for disc wheels are about as simple as it gets, and you'd probably go lower than 28 spokes because of the greater rim stiffness. However, I doubt 100g a pair is going to make a tangible difference. Anyone with money to burn will be far better off with two sets of basic wheels (with different tyres) than one set of exotic ones.

    Edit: If I had to have carbon rims, I'd still go with Chinese ones despite the lack of post-sale support. The reason for that is that it's so much cheaper to buy direct from China that if there was an issue, you could throw the rim in the bin, buy another, and still be better off. In practice, especially if you do your market research, the failure rate should be pretty small. Clincher rims for rim brakes might be a different matter, but tub rims are pretty simple, and without disc brakes there's only so much that can go wrong.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • devhadsdevhads Posts: 236
    In terms of feel it doesn't compare, in terms of pressure you can run, it's pretty similar. That's not tubeless fault, it's just that tubulars have normally a higher TPI count than clincher tyres.

    How about Challenge open tubulars, same TPI as the tubs so get that nice feel and can run at similar pressure with a latex tube. No burps, sealant, gluing or rolled tubs.
    The thinking behing deep rims is that, when you're riding through deep mud, the mud doesn't flow over the top of the rim; this means you don't have to displace all that mud again when the rim comes out of the mud

    This reminds me of a conversation I had with someone recently. They asked me why people used deep section rims for cross given that the aero benefit was likely to be minimal. Having not used deep section rims I quoted the above having read it, probably on this forum. He asked though wouldn't the larger surface area actually create more drag whilst in the mud and give a larger area for mud to accumulate, albeit on a vertical surface. I didn't have an answer, but if that was the case wouldn't a shallow rim be better but with a thin internal area where very little mud could gather and would cut through the mud as it came up out of it?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    devhads wrote:
    How about Challenge open tubulars, same TPI as the tubs so get that nice feel and can run at similar pressure with a latex tube. No burps, sealant, gluing or rolled tubs.
    Still can't run very low pressures though, due to the risk of pinch flats. I've also seen a very aggressive rider "roll" a clincher, multiple times, in training.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • devhadsdevhads Posts: 236
    Still can't run very low pressures though, due to the risk of pinch flats.

    I can run low to mid 20s which for me is low enough to not bother with the expense and hassle of tubs for the moment. I'm not sure at the level I'm at that extra 4-5psi will make much of a difference. And putting a rolled clincher back on is a bit easier than a rolled tub :)
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:

    Edit: If I had to have carbon rims, I'd still go with Chinese ones despite the lack of post-sale support. The reason for that is that it's so much cheaper to buy direct from China that if there was an issue, you could throw the rim in the bin, buy another, and still be better off. In practice, especially if you do your market research, the failure rate should be pretty small. Clincher rims for rim brakes might be a different matter, but tub rims are pretty simple, and without disc brakes there's only so much that can go wrong.

    My thinking exactly. If you break rims racing, most manufacturers will not give you full warranty anyway. The Farsports rims have thus far been stellar for me, and at £400 for a 1100g wheelset amazing bang for buck.

    I have a set of Toms as well, but it's no comparison.

    As to the danger of rolling - properly glued tubs won't roll, period. On truly muddy days you can get no grip at 22psi and good grip at 18 psi. It's a question of how seriously you want to take it.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,777
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:

    My thinking exactly. If you break rims racing, most manufacturers will not give you full warranty anyway. The Farsports rims have thus far been stellar for me, and at £400 for a 1100g wheelset amazing bang for buck.

    I have built 1.1 Kg sets... I find it a bit hard to believe you can get there with Farsports rims and 400 quid and have something rideable... but hey oh, live and learn... :wink:
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:

    My thinking exactly. If you break rims racing, most manufacturers will not give you full warranty anyway. The Farsports rims have thus far been stellar for me, and at £400 for a 1100g wheelset amazing bang for buck.

    I have built 1.1 Kg sets... I find it a bit hard to believe you can get there with Farsports rims and 400 quid and have something rideable... but hey oh, live and learn... :wink:

    That's what they cost factory built and delivered. I rode most of last season on just such a set, trust me they got plenty of abuse. I liked them so much I bought another two sets for this season.
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    I liked them so much I bought another two sets for this season.
    And so the arms race continues... :-)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,777
    Good for you... to achieve that number we used the lightest mid profile tubular rims on the market (Enve 1.45 at 290 grams each), Tune hubs (70/170) and CX ray spokes... there are cheap light hubs, like Bitex, but are Farsport rims that light?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    Good for you... to achieve that number we used the lightest mid profile tubular rims on the market (Enve 1.45 at 290 grams each), Tune hubs (70/170) and CX ray spokes... there are cheap light hubs, like Bitex, but are Farsport rims that light?
    Not sure which rims VamP has, but I built mine with the 50mm carbon rims, which came in at 350g each.

    I got to about 1300g with bog-standard Novatec disc hubs and a very conservative 24/28 spoke count (partly dictated by hub availability). Given that VamP runs rim brakes (lighter hubs) and probably has at least 4 spokes a wheel less than me, 1100g sounds quite credible. Mine came in £100 cheaper than his, but I did have to build them myself...

    Edit: My rims are actually designed for rim brakes, with nice basalt braking tracks that will never be used. I guess carbon tub rims for disc brakes could probably be built a bit lighter, but (like low spoke count disc hubs) it's such a niche market that I doubt anyone's actually doing it.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    Good for you... to achieve that number we used the lightest mid profile tubular rims on the market (Enve 1.45 at 290 grams each), Tune hubs (70/170) and CX ray spokes... there are cheap light hubs, like Bitex, but are Farsport rims that light?

    I am not going to get drawn in a wheelbuilder pissing contest :D

    They advertise them at 1070g, but they are closer to 1100 in real life. The hubs are EDHubs. The spokes are Sapims CX rays. I did not have opportunity to weigh any of the bits separately.

    The rim profile is 38mm which I consider optimal for cross.

    The new ones for this year have Novatec hubs and are more like 1150g. They are the new U shape profile, 23 mm wide, and IMO a better choice for cross tubs due to better conformity of rim/base tape profiles.
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    I liked them so much I bought another two sets for this season.
    And so the arms race continues... :-)

    Are you doing the Trophies this year? I've done the buy 5 get 1 free thing :twisted:
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    I liked them so much I bought another two sets for this season.
    And so the arms race continues... :-)

    Are you doing the Trophies this year? I've done the buy 5 get 1 free thing :twisted:
    Definitely Southampton and Milton Keynes, probably Shrewsbury. Whether I can do Derby comes down to my daughter, who's point-hunting in the Central League. If she desperately needs the points, it's going to be hard to tell her she can't race because I want to go to an event that she can't do. If the overall standings are pretty much decided by then, it'll be an easier conversation.

    This year I have 2 bikes, 3 sets of FMBs, and a pit crew already booked for the Nationals :-)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • VamPVamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    I liked them so much I bought another two sets for this season.
    And so the arms race continues... :-)

    Are you doing the Trophies this year? I've done the buy 5 get 1 free thing :twisted:
    Definitely Southampton and Milton Keynes, probably Shrewsbury. Whether I can do Derby comes down to my daughter, who's point-hunting in the Central League. If she desperately needs the points, it's going to be hard to tell her she can't race because I want to go to an event that she can't do. If the overall standings are pretty much decided by then, it'll be an easier conversation.

    This year I have 2 bikes, 3 sets of FMBs, and a pit crew already booked for the Nationals :-)

    Now who is fanning the flames of arms race :D

    For this year, I finally have two identical frames, two sets Rhinos, two sets intermediates and one set file treads. Pit crew for Nationals also booked, though that might go tits up if he manages to qualify himself.

    Milton Keynes on the World Cup course should be mentally good fun. I am going to try to squeeze in a couple of Central and London League events too. My weekends from September to January have no room for anything at all :D

    Which age group is your daughter in?
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    I liked them so much I bought another two sets for this season.
    And so the arms race continues... :-)

    Are you doing the Trophies this year? I've done the buy 5 get 1 free thing :twisted:
    Definitely Southampton and Milton Keynes, probably Shrewsbury. Whether I can do Derby comes down to my daughter, who's point-hunting in the Central League. If she desperately needs the points, it's going to be hard to tell her she can't race because I want to go to an event that she can't do. If the overall standings are pretty much decided by then, it'll be an easier conversation.

    This year I have 2 bikes, 3 sets of FMBs, and a pit crew already booked for the Nationals :-)

    Now who is fanning the flames of arms race :D

    For this year, I finally have two identical frames, two sets Rhinos, two sets intermediates and one set file treads. Pit crew for Nationals also booked, though that might go tits up if he manages to qualify himself.

    Milton Keynes on the World Cup course should be mentally good fun. I am going to try to squeeze in a couple of Central and London League events too. My weekends from September to January have no room for anything at all :D

    Which age group is your daughter in?
    She's U10, and more committed than either of us. Current plan seems to be to do every Central race, and every London race that doesn't clash either with Central or NT. I think that leaves a couple of weekends free, which I plan to spend sleeping.

    Think you're leading the arms race; I only have one set of intermediates (thinking being that in intermediate tread conditions the pit bike should only be needed for emergencies) and still on tubeless for file treads. I do, however, have different front/rear intermediate treads :-)

    Also copied your single ring setup...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ukjimukjim Posts: 39
    ok well that got out of hand quickly :)

    My Major toms arrived this morning. as I am not a contender I will be happy with my slightly heavier wheelset I think.

    unfortunately due to a broken arm it looks like my season has taken a somewhat dismal turn for the worst. I will be out of a cast by the first race but completely out of condition.
  • For the people who went down the Farsport tub route, how did you fare on customs charges etc when they landed in the UK?

    Also, be interested to understand how you got down to those build weights, as using the quoted weights for the various components I can't get anywhere near them.

    On the original question, I've given up with tubeless as I keep blowing tyres off the rim. I use Stans Iron Cross rims and have tried Mud 2's, Rocket Rons etc always with the same result. They seem to be great for a while and then will randomly blow off the rim in a race and I DNF. I now run them with tubes for dry races and tubs for muddy courses.

    Cheers
    It doesn't get any easier, but I don't appear to be getting any faster.
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