Is this a decent training plan?

SCR Pedro

Hey people. I've recently come back from a 3 year break from cycling, and now that I'm living in the middle of Europe, I want to train for some long weekends where I'll do up to 150km rides with some mountains thrown in. Kind of like a sportive, but without hundreds of others trying to take me out on the descents.

My weekly plan looks like this:

1x Endurance ride of at least 4 hours at an average of 70-80% MaxHR. I've built up to doing 115km with 1,300m of climbing.
1x tempo ride 2-3 hours at 80-90% maxHR. Giving it some extra effort on the climbs, recovering between intervals.
1x 2x20. Both 20s ridden at 90% maxHR. (no power, cadence or other readouts available).

I could possibly add another day, but I don't want to risk overtraining, or losing motivation. I should also say that cycling isn't my entire life, so I do enjoy a day of working out in the gym, or doing some yoga. I am also trying to avoid weight loss. I'm at 66kg, and don't really want to go below that.

Thoughts?

hypster

I'm no expert but the heart rates for the endurance and tempo rides seem a little high. The figures I've seen posted are normally more like 70% and 80% of max HR respectively or maybe 80% and 90% of anaerobic threshold. These are only rough starting figures of course so you will benefit from finding out what your own personal levels are.

Endurance rides sometimes seem ridiculously easy but that's the whole point, you are training your aerobic system to become more efficient to enable you to handle the higher stresses of the harder tempo and interval sessions. Obviously you will also find it difficult to keep your HR down on anything resembling a hill but try to resist the urge to turn your endurance ride into one long interval session.

I do 2x20s and aim to keep my HR in the range 90%-100% of AT which roughly also equates to 80%-90% of max HR.

Tom Dean

I'm not sure a 4+hour ride every week is a good idea if you're only doing 8hr/week. Maybe split that time into two shorter, harder rides and throw in a long ride once a month?

hypster

Tom Dean wrote:

I'm not sure a 4+hour ride every week is a good idea if you're only doing 8hr/week. Maybe split that time into two shorter, harder rides and throw in a long ride once a month?

It is if he is planning to do 150km sportives in the mountains as his OP states.

SCR Pedro

Thanks for the replies. The problem with riding in HR zones is that, there is a lack of agreement exactly what percentage of maxHR one should ride in. There are too many different definitions of HR zones.

For me, 90% max HR is 176bpm. 2x20s are around 173-174 average for each 20, which is just below 90%. I can finish them, but they are tough. Any lighter, and I think they would be too easy. My last endurance rides averaged 75% and 77% for a flatish and hilly route, respectively. Both between 4-5 hours.

Tom Dean

hypster wrote:

Tom Dean wrote:

I'm not sure a 4+hour ride every week is a good idea if you're only doing 8hr/week. Maybe split that time into two shorter, harder rides and throw in a long ride once a month?

It is if he is planning to do 150km sportives in the mountains as his OP states.

I agree it's worth doing some longer rides but to do it every week means giving up too much intensity IMO which you can't afford to do when overall volume is low.

hypster

SCR Pedro wrote:

Thanks for the replies. The problem with riding in HR zones is that, there is a lack of agreement exactly what percentage of maxHR one should ride in. There are too many different definitions of HR zones.

For me, 90% max HR is 176bpm. 2x20s are around 173-174 average for each 20, which is just below 90%. I can finish them, but they are tough. Any lighter, and I think they would be too easy. My last endurance rides averaged 75% and 77% for a flatish and hilly route, respectively. Both between 4-5 hours.

I agree which is why I suggested the numbers I quoted were just a starting point and you need to effectively find what your zones are from experience. 2x20s are supposed to be tough which is why they are structured that way to make them just doable. I did one last night actually and my average HR for both intervals was 91% of my max HR but I broke my previous distance best for one interval by 0.35 miles.

SCR Pedro

Fair enough. I think I have a tendency to ride at the upper end of a zone on long and tempo rides, which might be too intense. But there's nothing fundamentally wrong with this plan, is there?

If I do, say 80-90km with some good climbs, should I do it at endurance pace, but give it a good effort on the climbs? Or is there a better way to ride? What would be the best value for money training on such routes?
Or if I sacrificed the long ride for 2 shorter, intenser rides, what time and intensity should I be looking at for them?

cheers!

Chinley Churner

I'd forget working from Max HR and instead test for Functional Threshold HR and base training zones from that. You'll get a lot more out of your 2x20 mins and FTHR is a far more reliable set-point for calculating zones from that MaxHR http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... D_TEST.pdf

Tom Dean

A session can only be 'too intense' in the context of the rest of your programme i.e. if you are unable to recover in time for your next session.

hypster

Chinley Churner wrote:

I'd forget working from Max HR and instead test for Functional Threshold HR and base training zones from that. You'll get a lot more out of your 2x20 mins and FTHR is a far more reliable set-point for calculating zones from that MaxHR http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... D_TEST.pdf

This is the best way of doing it but if you are using an HR monitor you need to log your average HR for the last 20 minutes of the 30 minute test. You need to be able to reset the HR monitor after the first 10 minutes of the test. Using something like a Garmin is the easiest way because you can just press the Lap button after 10 minutes.

hypster

SCR Pedro wrote:

Fair enough. I think I have a tendency to ride at the upper end of a zone on long and tempo rides, which might be too intense. But there's nothing fundamentally wrong with this plan, is there?

If I do, say 80-90km with some good climbs, should I do it at endurance pace, but give it a good effort on the climbs? Or is there a better way to ride? What would be the best value for money training on such routes?
Or if I sacrificed the long ride for 2 shorter, intenser rides, what time and intensity should I be looking at for them?

cheers!

I would say it depends on how you intend to ride your sportive type rides. I personally favour one long, steady ride a week mixed with shorter, high intensity rides but obviously others like Tom dean have other ideas on how to train.

I have cycled extensively in the Alps including completing the Marmotte a couple of times and favour endurance over outright speed. I am 58 years old though and 1.95m/80kg so no climbing goat compared to the OPs 66kg. I train the same way with a friend who is younger and lighter than me and he has no problem with the same training regime and he finished the Marmotte in a gold medal time of just over 8 hours this year.

poynedexter

i dont get it. what is the point or goal of your training? being able to ride 150k? you can already ride 115k, so why not just add a few miles in now and then. are you racing for the 150k? just curb your output a bit and ride further? once you get to 150k there is no prize, so just enjoy riding.

you will achieve your 150k goal faster by learning how to refuel properly and meter your efforts along the route. i think your plan is overkill for your goal. just ride more.

poynedexter

btw for someone planning 4 hr spins at high intensity in training, there should be no problem in riding 150km.

SCR Pedro

poynedexter wrote:

i dont get it. what is the point or goal of your training? being able to ride 150k? you can already ride 115k, so why not just add a few miles in now and then. are you racing for the 150k? just curb your output a bit and ride further? once you get to 150k there is no prize, so just enjoy riding.

you will achieve your 150k goal faster by learning how to refuel properly and meter your efforts along the route. i think your plan is overkill for your goal. just ride more.

My goal is to increase my endurance and speed. If I can increase my power, then I can ride longer at lower intensity, but also give it some gas in the mountains. I'm not so much interested in riding painfully slow just to complete my route. I also might end up racing, or joining a club, and if I can't attack people on the hills, then I'd be as well to get an Xbox and sit on the couch all day.

nibby

hypster wrote:

Chinley Churner wrote:

I'd forget working from Max HR and instead test for Functional Threshold HR and base training zones from that. You'll get a lot more out of your 2x20 mins and FTHR is a far more reliable set-point for calculating zones from that MaxHR http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... D_TEST.pdf

This is the best way of doing it but if you are using an HR monitor you need to log your average HR for the last 20 minutes of the 30 minute test. You need to be able to reset the HR monitor after the first 10 minutes of the test. Using something like a Garmin is the easiest way because you can just press the Lap button after 10 minutes.

Thanks for the link.

It also recommends a cadence meter so you can track progress which seems sensible.

Looks like I'm going to install the one from my 800 I thought was always going to be useless

markwb79

I think its a lot of hours for only 2 x 20mins proper intensity.

I would swap the tempo ride for some blocks followed by endurance. 5min hill repeats or 2x20 would be better in my opinion.

SCR Pedro

You mean, for example 2x20s in one week? I would definitely do that in winter, but I don't have the psychological stamina to do more than one session per week.
On Thursday night I went out for 56km, and gave it full gas on... ..."segments". Ugh, ugly word. But it felt like I was benefiting from it. My plan is therefore to cut tempo rides to 2 hours, and once a week. Endurance rides to fornightly, and do a slightly more intense 3 hour ride every other weekend. Say 80 hilly Km's.
Grinding away for over 100km when the power isn't there yet is dull.

markwb79

SCR Pedro wrote:

You mean, for example 2x20s in one week? I would definitely do that in winter, but I don't have the psychological stamina to do more than one session per week.
On Thursday night I went out for 56km, and gave it full gas on... ..."segments". Ugh, ugly word. But it felt like I was benefiting from it. My plan is therefore to cut tempo rides to 2 hours, and once a week. Endurance rides to fornightly, and do a slightly more intense 3 hour ride every other weekend. Say 80 hilly Km's.
Grinding away for over 100km when the power isn't there yet is dull.

Yes, if time is that limited to 3 rides. I would plan the following

Tuesday or Wednesday - 2x20mins
Saturday - Intervals again, hill repeats or 2x20mins again - You will be rest enough after a mid week session I would guess
Sunday - Endurance - Nothing wrong with that, Depending on when your events are. I would try for more of a tempo 3 hours on the Sunday and then from October take it to 4 hours endurance.

SCR Pedro

Markwb79 wrote:

Yes, if time is that limited to 3 rides. I would plan the following

Tuesday or Wednesday - 2x20mins
Saturday - Intervals again, hill repeats or 2x20mins again - You will be rest enough after a mid week session I would guess
Sunday - Endurance - Nothing wrong with that, Depending on when your events are. I would try for more of a tempo 3 hours on the Sunday and then from October take it to 4 hours endurance.

I might give that a go. Thanks.

I know everybody's different but I could never, EVER enjoy a training plan so rigid. Doing the same things on the same days week after week after week? Sounds like a recipe for disaster IMO.

Fair enough. But I am the complete opposite. Without structure I start to lose the plot. I don't ride on the same days every week. I just aim for 3 sessions a week. 4 if I feel good.

DeVlaeminck

I thought your own plan was better - if you are training 3 times a week you don't need to be making 2 of the sessions intervals.

SCR Pedro

I think something in the middle is what I will try.

1x 2x20
1x 2 hour ride with intervals or hill repeats
1x 3 hour-max tempo ride. To be replaced max twice per month with a longer slower ride.

The middle session will most likely be the most fun. It's not totally structured, and I can have some fun with it, without worrying about blowing up, or getting bored.