Chinese carbon clincher WARNING!!!

ugo.santalucia

In a way it's a good thing that they want the wheel back, it means they want to see what's wrong and potentially improve it... I am more weary of those who just send you a new wheel, as it means they are aware of the issue and they can't care less.
Of course they should also refund courier costs once they have assessed that it's down to crap rims, but hey ho

iPete

Bar Shaker wrote:

If you bought a new set of Carbonzone every year, it would be 6 years before you spent the cost of a set of Mavic 40C wheels. A set of Lightweights would be over 10 years away. Both of those will be old tech by their pay back date, but you will be buying almost the latest designs and the latest material technology, with each new set of cheaper wheels.

Are they really using new tech? Dimples, different shapes or whatever new tech you can put into a rim?

Forget the value proposition, what's more concerning is the potential for a failure at high speed.

Bar Shaker

iPete wrote:

Are they really using new tech? Dimples, different shapes or whatever new tech you can put into a rim?

Forget the value proposition, what's more concerning is the potential for a failure at high speed.

Kind of. Dimples no, but then only Zipp use them (correct me if I am wrong) and other wheels are more aero without them. They are using Toroidal profiles, 23 and 25mm widths, high(er) temp brake tracks with basalt content, just the same as all wheels costing over £1500 a set. Mine also came with ceramic bearings that are silky smooth and Sapin CX ray spokes.

Toroidal profiles are probably the biggest leap as they stop the airflow stalling over the trailing rim. This makes a big difference to drag in a wind with any yaw angle (so 99% of all rides) and reduces the side wind effect on steering (it will always be considerable with deep sections though).

With regards to failure at speed, that is a risk with ALL deep section carbon wheels. If the carbon is wrapped around an internal alloy track, like a Mavic 40C, the risk is reduced but carbon is made with a resin that will melt at 200something DegC. The problem is the material isn't suitable for being a friction surface.

If you are going to use your wheels on big hills, or you weigh much more than 85kg, or you don't know if you can be disciplined with your braking technique then sod the weight penalty and get wheels with an alloy brake track. The 0.3kg penalty will be irrelevant.

Or get disc brakes.

ugo.santalucia

Bar Shaker wrote:

Kind of. Dimples no, but then only Zipp use them (correct me if I am wrong) and other wheels are more aero without them. They are using Toroidal profiles, 23 and 25mm widths, high(er) temp brake tracks with basalt content, just the same as all wheels costing over £1500 a set.

Are you sure? The ones from Far sports I built were supposed to have the basalt and all things, but in fact had nothing at all...

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/con ... -now-built

diy

So I assume then, that they will last approximately 6 minutes if you ever have to brake hard in the wet?

pinno

Bar Shaker wrote:

I am quite surprised that no one has owned up to doing this on their Zipps/Reynolds/Enve/Mavics/FF/Lightweights.

It is very likely that the cheaper wheels will be using identical processes, design and technology well before the pay back period.

...like F1 brake discs.

Long tradition of building wheels? Long tradition of neutral service provision in big events where the reliability will come under huge scrutiny? Hmmm... me thinks that so much is copied - the years of R and D put into western products with great histories is being pirated by these far eastern companies.
The Mavic ksyriums I had were far too stiff for a skinny like me and not second but 3rd hand by the time I got them. They were bullet proof. You'd have to bunny hop off the Grand Canyon to bend them.

Bar Shaker

pinarello001 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I am quite surprised that no one has owned up to doing this on their Zipps/Reynolds/Enve/Mavics/FF/Lightweights.

It is very likely that the cheaper wheels will be using identical processes, design and technology well before the pay back period.

...like F1 brake discs.

Long tradition of building wheels? Long tradition of neutral service provision in big events where the reliability will come under huge scrutiny? Hmmm... me thinks that so much is copied - the years of R and D put into western products with great histories is being pirated by these far eastern companies.
The Mavic ksyriums I had were far too stiff for a skinny like me and not second but 3rd hand by the time I got them. They were bullet proof. You'd have to bunny hop off the Grand Canyon to bend them.

I completely agree that western companies lead the way with design, but like carbon frames (and excluding Lightweight), who actually makes their carbon rims in house? Probably very few companies. The far eastern companies lead the world in mass producing carbon to a very high standard.

I have a set of Ksyriums and love them. I keep them for the big hill days. Stiffer than a farmhouse kitchen table.

ben@31

Why does it matter where a product is made? Is every product in China inferior by default and does every product made in the UK never fail?

Surely there's a limited number of ways you can make a wheel, a wheel in China can't be made much differently, can it?

Here is something for you to think about... How much stuff in your household is made in China? I bet even cars marketed as ""German"" have components made in the Far East or South America.

Is expensive better? the latest iPhone will cost a fortune to buy but is still made in the far east. Apple are just raking the profit in.

john1967

Not exactly clear what the warning is? Is it that stuff breaks.I have a dura ace chain that snapped with less than 200 miles on it.Should i start a thread warning people that Japanese chains can snap.

Monty Dog

Save money on return postage by cutting the rim into pieces - it's foo-bar anyway.

martinperry

ben@31 wrote:

Why does it matter where a product is made? Is every product in China inferior by default and does every product made in the UK never fail?

Surely there's a limited number of ways you can make a wheel, a wheel in China can't be made much differently, can it?

Here is something for you to think about... How much stuff in your household is made in China? I bet even cars marketed as ""German"" have components made in the Far East or South America.

Is expensive better? the latest iPhone will cost a fortune to buy but is still made in the far east. Apple are just raking the profit in.

Ben
I think you are very much of the mindset that I was before my Carbonzone wheel decided to try and kill me.
Im not suggesting that everything from China is crap. Anyone can have a bad day, but fundamentally, I fear that ANY carbon brake surace is on the absolute limit in proper mountains. Im just pointing out that the fact they look pretty doesnt equate to reliability.
Until Sunday, I was firmly in your camp
Make your own decisions - All I know is that Ive got a wife and two kids who would rather have me home after a ride, and I now know what way I am going henceforth

pinno

ben@31 wrote:

Why does it matter where a product is made? Is every product in China inferior by default and does every product made in the UK never fail?

Surely there's a limited number of ways you can make a wheel, a wheel in China can't be made much differently, can it?

Here is something for you to think about... How much stuff in your household is made in China? I bet even cars marketed as ""German"" have components made in the Far East or South America.

Is expensive better? the latest iPhone will cost a fortune to buy but is still made in the far east. Apple are just raking the profit in.

A: I favour European Products.
B: I try my hardest not to buy Chinese products not because I think they are inferior but because I do not like the continuing massacre of the Elephant in Africa for ivory. However, given a choice, I will favour German, Italian, French...etc products. German made speaks of quality, Chinese speaks of lottery.
C: It is very hard to avoid purchasing Chinese products.
I don't have a smart phone.
E: Calm Down, it's only a forum

Strith

ben@31 wrote:

Why does it matter where a product is made? Is every product in China inferior by default and does every product made in the UK never fail?

Surely there's a limited number of ways you can make a wheel, a wheel in China can't be made much differently, can it?

Here is something for you to think about... How much stuff in your household is made in China? I bet even cars marketed as ""German"" have components made in the Far East or South America.

Is expensive better? the latest iPhone will cost a fortune to buy but is still made in the far east. Apple are just raking the profit in.

Very much this. Like it or not, Chinese manufacturing is very much a part of our everyday lives.

As for the OP, glad to hear you're ok, but tbh this risk is pretty well documented. That said, these sellers give weight recommendations, so it would be nice to see them offering some advice regarding their application.

diy

The issue of going direct to source in another country is that you have no idea what you are buying, you have no statutory protection and if the product isn't fit for purpose there is no trading standards to help you. I looked in to this a while back and was very tempted by some wheels from far sport, but in the end they were not that much cheaper than the branded alternatives.

The big question is why hasn't some bike shop looked in to distributing them as a uk seller? Probably because they don't want to go bankrupt dealing with claims. If they were bargains, some one would have filled the gap in the market. I'm speaking as someone who imports a fair amount from China.

ugo.santalucia

diy wrote:

The big question is why hasn't some bike shop looked in to distributing them as a uk seller? Probably because they don't want to go bankrupt dealing with claims. If they were bargains, some one would have filled the gap in the market. I'm speaking as someone who imports a fair amount from China.

There are a number of outlets in the UK that offer rebadged chinese/Taiwanese rims built up... some more famous than others...

TheHound

Do deep section wheels with the alloy brake track have the same sort of issues or are the completely ok?

sloppyschleckonds

TheHound wrote:

Do deep section wheels with the alloy brake track have the same sort of issues or are the completely ok?

They'd be alloy clinchers with carbon fairings.....

ugo.santalucia

TheHound wrote:

Do deep section wheels with the alloy brake track have the same sort of issues or are the completely ok?

They are completely OK

martinperry

The posted wight limit was 160KG!!
Go figure
And yes, Ive just gone Alloy rim with carbon fairing.

davidof

martinperry wrote:

the Guy in the LBS who fixed me up was quite firm that "NO ONE round here rides carbon"

I've never seen anyone round my way use carbon rims, apart maybe from a few Brit tourists.

Monty Dog

TheHound wrote:

Do deep section wheels with the alloy brake track have the same sort of issues or are the completely ok?

If you use clinchers, don't use latex tubes as they can 'pop' due to the heat build-up from heavy braking

diy

I wonder what a 160kg person looks like riding a bike?

jgsi

davidof wrote:

martinperry wrote:

the Guy in the LBS who fixed me up was quite firm that "NO ONE round here rides carbon"

I've never seen anyone round my way use carbon rims, apart maybe from a few Brit tourists.

That may be the case.. obviously pro teams have a never ending supply of free top end wheels as you dont see many alloyed up these days

martinperry

[img][/img] :?:
Or maybe that's a bike IN a 160kg person ?

ugo.santalucia

diy wrote:

I wonder what a 160kg person looks like riding a bike?

Well, I have a friend, former rugby player at Northampton and 6 foot 5 who weighs just shy of 140 Kg... his calves are the size of Serrano hams, just rounder and has to get custom made shoes from the US... the frame (carbon) is immense and looks silly with 700 C wheels... but he looks OK on a bike, to be honest

pinno

Don't believe what you see. The guy on the bike is 4 foot nothing and the guy holding him up is 2 foot nothing and the wheels are 12".

mcnultycop

diy wrote:

I wonder what a 160kg person looks like riding a bike?

I was 152kg when I started. To answer your question, sweaty.

Bar Shaker

Ugo, my brake track looks nothing like the one in your photo.

martinperry

Be warned
That is EXACTLY how my "high temperature basalt brake surface" looked, just before it shattered.

goonz

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TheHound wrote:

Do deep section wheels with the alloy brake track have the same sort of issues or are the completely ok?

They are completely OK

They just dont look as good.