Visceral Fat won't budge!!!!!

neilr4

Hi,

I'm at my wits end......

After years of inactivity and somewhat unhealthy lifestyle (I raced up until 12 years ago!) I finally got back cycling in january, the scales tipped 91kg (my heaviest ever for my 5' 7" frame) I've gotten my weight down to a respectable 82kg but I can't seem to get it any lower!!!!!

I commute 20km to (on an empty stomach) and from work 4 days per week almost always in heartrate zone D2 in order to stimulate fat burning and in the weekend with a group approx. 100km avg zone D3. Sometimes on my way home from work I will do a couple of intense intervals just to break the monotomy of the commute and to help with fat burning.

I have reduced eating and eat predominently whole foods and make sure that I always have a calorie deficit at the end of the day but I have been stuck on 82kg for the past two months and can't shift the hard visceral fat from my stomach........ At first I thought just get excercising, eat healthy and the rest will happen, didnt get hung up on the whole 'get lean' thing but just do things right and enjoy it but after a good 7 months of drinking 2 litres of water per day, reducing alcohol and eating healthy food I just don't know anymore!!! At work a couple of days ago I'm sitting eating my lunch consisting of a home made pasta salad with no dressing and a colleague jokinglycommented that I would be better off eating a fry-up as eating healthy food wasn't having any effect and I thought "you're damn right!", no matter what I do I just can't seem to shift 'the belly'........

Any dietician I consulted only talk about a balanced healthy diet with a calorie deficit but in my case it just isn't helping..... Am I eating the 'wrong' food? Are there certain foods that are prohibiting losing visceral stomach fat?

I have to admit it was difficult getting back on a racing bike in lycra looking like Danny de Vito but I always had a deep respect even when I was a lean 72kg 12 years ago for overweight people doing sport that's why I could swallow my pride and laugh off the slagging from co workers and club mates regarding my shape, the surprising looks and comments when the speed in the group goes above 45kph (27mph) and I'm still doing turns at the front "Jeez Neil howcome you still carry so much around the middle? must be doing something wrong?" people of course mean well and generally only want to help but for me what other's think comes second, what I think is important!!!

Has anyone ANY advice? I typed my story so that any suggestions will be new and not anything to do with 'burn-more-calories-than-you-take-in' as I've been doing that very strict for the past 3 months!!!!! :roll:

Neil.

My target is 75kg as I would like to ride some sportifs over mountainous terrain at some stage

meanredspider

I don't think that riding "fasted" in the morning does any real good. Breakfast supposedly kick starts your metabolism. I also wouldn't do ALL my commutes in zone 2 - mixing it up is good: alternate days.

Beyond those thoughts, I can't really help. Diet is definitely the "big lever" to weight loss so that's what I'd focus on. If what you're doing isn't working, then try something else (5:2 diet, different mix of food types etc?)

I'm told (by a 60kg 50-something rider) that "grey fat" that middle-aged men have is notoriously difficult to shift.

styxd

Easy rides are your problem. Ride hard, get lean, win KOMs.

city_boy

Without knowing what your 'healthy' diet consists of its difficult to advise but the comment regarding pasta salad may give a clue. Refined carbs such as white pasta and white bread should be avoided if weight/fat loss is the aim. As should high sugar foods such as fruit juices and, indeed, certain fruits. Avoid processed foods and anything that says "low fat" as the reduced fat content is often replaced by sugar. Eat plenty of lean protein and try to get most of your carbs from vegetables and whole fruit.

As mentioned above try to mix up your training. High intensity interval training and resistance training are great for weight loss in addition to your longer rides.

From my understanding, fasted training can be effective but should only be done 2-3 times a week and only for 45-60 minute sessions of aerobic exercise.

Don't give up, it may only be a few tweaks and a bit more patience that you need. Good luck.

mamba80

I have found that sugar - no dont eat the stuff is the key to stomach fat loss, so no energy drinks and sugary bars - on rides or alcohol afterwards!!! I know you said no calorie style advice but the secret is.... eat less, it is possible - no one ever came out of Belsen fat.

dru

mamba80 wrote:

I have found that sugar - no dont eat the stuff is the key to stomach fat loss, so no energy drinks and sugary bars - on rides or alcohol afterwards!!! I know you said no calorie style advice but the secret is.... eat less, it is possible - no one ever came out of Belsen fat.

I've been on a sugar free diet for 6 weeks - I've lost 9lbs..... all from my middle.

dork_knight

If the primary goal is weight loss then look at your diet, perhaps use a site like myfitnesspal to log the foods you are eating as you might be consuming too many carbs for the amount of fat that you are carrying.

Going on a 4 day commute + club run you may want to reduce your weekly carb intake, perhaps have 3 days per week where you're eating around 300 grams of good sourced carbs and all other days around 50 grams.

This is currently working for me, the goal here is weight loss, once down to a reasonable weight with a much lower body fat percentage then another diet change with an increase of carbs against training load would probably be required.

jane90

+1 for avoiding refined carbs such as white bread or pasta, sugar (unless during or immediately after exercise) and processed food (especially if labelled as a diet alternative).

Counter-intuitively, eating more good quality natural fats will help you lose weight (but avoid hydrogenated fat/transfats). For example, oily fish, dairy products and avocados all have high fat content, are nutrient dense and switch on the body's enzymes that help with fat adaption, i.e. burning more fat relative to glycogen at any given exercise intensity.

Timing of your macro nutrients might also help. I'm not sure what your structure is, but if you're eating lots of carbs throughout the day you could try eating more fat and protein before exercise (bacon and eggs or an omelette for breakfast, for example, instead of toast or cereal). Complex carbs such as brown rice are best reserved for after training.

Also, be patient. It takes time for the body to adapt and create pathways to burn fat more efficiently. Don't give up and I'm sure you'll see good results. Good luck!

davidof

I wonder how many people came out of the concentration camps moaning "4 years in there and I've still not lost this viceral fat!"

If all else fails try Lipo.

legendary27

Neil - how are you estimating your calories burned ?

Regards,
Gordon

keef66

Visceral fat is the stuff that accumulates around your internal organs. You don't know how much you have unless you're scanned.

Apparently thin people can have significant visceral fat and are dubbed TOFIs: thin on the outside, fat on the inside.

If you have fat around your middle that you can grab in a handful that's subcutaneous fat.

If your weight loss has levelled off it's clear that you're no longer running a calorie deficit. Try the 5:2 diet, it worked for me when daily calorie restriction became too boring

dw300

keef66 wrote:

Visceral fat is the stuff that accumulates around your internal organs. You don't know how much you have unless you're scanned.

Apparently thin people can have significant visceral fat and are dubbed TOFIs: thin on the outside, fat on the inside.

If you have fat around your middle that you can grab in a handful that's subcutaneous fat.

If your weight loss has levelled off it's clear that you're no longer running a calorie deficit. Try the 5:2 diet, it worked for me when daily calorie restriction became too boring

This ^

I mean if you don't know what visceral fat is, then loosing weight and knowing how much energy youre expending versus how much youre consuming is going to be quite a challenge to you.

styxd wrote:

Easy rides are your problem. Ride hard, get lean, win KOMs.

No, no, no. Well maybe..

Volume is far more likely his problem. Unless he genuinely cant do a minute or on the bike than he already does, in which case you're right.


How many 0.9IF+ rides can you do a week, or before you die from lack of recovery, or just cant do an hour at 0.9IF anymore? I'll challenge anyone to ride 0.9IF+ rides everyday, and I'll match their calorie burn riding for (maybe 30-40%) longer in Zone 2 everyday, and we'll see who's legs give up first.

If you hammer it for an hour and burn 750cals daily, you'll burn out after a week or two. But you can ride 2 hours a day every day and burn 1000cals each session without breaking a sweat (as long as you have time). If you rode for 2 week, Z2 guys has burned 1750cals more and can go on week after week.

For everday the Z4 guy can't face a ride the gap opens by another 1000cals. If you want to loose weight, volume is the key. Burning calories is not something that can be done in the short term, so low intensity and massive volume is the best way. (Also, I'm not saying its the best training for racing etc, but it'll give you a hell of a base.)

meanredspider

dw300 wrote:

styxd wrote:

Easy rides are your problem. Ride hard, get lean, win KOMs.

No, no, no. Well maybe..

Volume is far more likely his problem. Unless he genuinely cant do a minute or on the bike than he already does, in which case you're right.


How many 0.9IF+ rides can you do a week, or before you die from lack of recovery, or just cant do an hour at 0.9IF anymore? I'll challenge anyone to ride 0.9IF+ rides everyday, and I'll match their calorie burn riding for (maybe 30-40%) longer in Zone 2 everyday, and we'll see who's legs give up first.

If you hammer it for an hour and burn 750cals daily, you'll burn out after a week or two. But you can ride 2 hours a day every day and burn 1000cals each session without breaking a sweat (as long as you have time). If you rode for 2 week, Z2 guys has burned 1750cals more and can go on week after week.

For everday the Z4 guy can't face a ride the gap opens by another 1000cals. If you want to loose weight, volume is the key. Burning calories is not something that can be done in the short term, so low intensity and massive volume is the best way. (Also, I'm not saying its the best training for racing etc, but it'll give you a hell of a base.)

+1 (apart from the spelling of "lose" )

vs

Are you drinking enough alcohol? http://www.bryanmarcel.com/calories-bee ... lcohol-fat

homers_double

dw300 wrote:

If you hammer it for an hour and burn 750cals daily, you'll burn out after a week or two. But you can ride 2 hours a day every day and burn 1000cals each session without breaking a sweat (as long as you have time). If you rode for 2 week, Z2 guys has burned 1750cals more and can go on week after week.

For everday the Z4 guy can't face a ride the gap opens by another 1000cals. If you want to loose weight, volume is the key. Burning calories is not something that can be done in the short term, so low intensity and massive volume is the best way. (Also, I'm not saying its the best training for racing etc, but it'll give you a hell of a base.)

This is the exact reason I bought a Garmin with a HR monitor but I cant stay in zone 2, even rolling down hill.

Possibily my heart isn't so healthy I guess, I know I'm overweight but didn't think I was "that" bad...

gregwari

Cut booze out completely for 4 weeks, see what difference that makes (from personal experience, it made the biggest difference of all the changes I made).

neilr4

gregwari wrote:

Cut booze out completely for 4 weeks, see what difference that makes (from personal experience, it made the biggest difference of all the changes I made).

Depends on how much you drink? I had 1-2 glass' of red wine most evenings, a few beers once a week. Never enough to get drunk but have cut all alcohol since last friday.

Low carb for a month to see if that helps, not helping on the bike though!!

Meil.

vs

gregwari wrote:

Cut booze out completely for 4 weeks, see what difference that makes (from personal experience, it made the biggest difference of all the changes I made).

Nothing to do with not drinking: "regardless of the number of calories taken in from alcohol, your body has no way of storing those calories as fat."*

Any difference will just have been not eating so much of the crap that alcohol can make you crave.

* http://www.bryanmarcel.com/calories-beer-wine-alcohol-fat

neilr4

vs wrote:

gregwari wrote:

Cut booze out completely for 4 weeks, see what difference that makes (from personal experience, it made the biggest difference of all the changes I made).

Nothing to do with not drinking: "regardless of the number of calories taken in from alcohol, your body has no way of storing those calories as fat."*

Any difference will just have been not eating so much of the crap that alcohol can make you crave.

* http://www.bryanmarcel.com/calories-beer-wine-alcohol-fat

I read Bryan Marcel's article about alcohol, very interesting :P

DeVlaeminck

If true I'm going to drink a lot more in future.

hypster

I'm pretty sure I've seen completely the opposite point of view (about alcohol consumption) from Robert H. Lustig ("The Bitter Truth") when talking about fructose being no different in it's metabolism by the liver.

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/27/what-y ... out-sugar/

Chronic and excess alcohol or fructose exposure both cause fatty liver disease, which drives the pathologic process of insulin resistance, and causes the same chronic diseases — obesity, heart disease, and diabetes.

It makes much more sense to me.

NeXXus

Dr Lustig, one of many visibly overweight experts

hypster

NeXXus wrote:

Dr Lustig, one of many visibly overweight experts

Maybe it's just adipose fat rather than visceral!

vs

DeVlaeminck wrote:

If true I'm going to drink a lot more in future.

It's true, chronic alcoholics are always very thin, despite the huge number of calories they consume from drink, they just have a tendency not to want to eat too much.

dw300

vs wrote:

gregwari wrote:

Cut booze out completely for 4 weeks, see what difference that makes (from personal experience, it made the biggest difference of all the changes I made).

Nothing to do with not drinking: "regardless of the number of calories taken in from alcohol, your body has no way of storing those calories as fat."*

Any difference will just have been not eating so much of the crap that alcohol can make you crave.

* http://www.bryanmarcel.com/calories-beer-wine-alcohol-fat

Plus, the carbs in the alcoholic drinks which Bryan didnt mention for some reason.

Beer and alcopops (probably anything with coke etc as a mixer too) - 30% carbs. Red wine - 15% carbs.

meanredspider

The problem with calories from alcohol is that they ARE calories and your body can burn them readily. The body then doesn't need the calories from other sources which can be stored/kept as fat reserves. We tend to have evolved to like highly calorific food sources.

vs

dw300 wrote:

Plus, the carbs in the alcoholic drinks which Bryan didnt mention for some reason.

Beer and alcopops (probably anything with coke etc as a mixer too) - 30% carbs. Red wine - 15% carbs.

You obviously didn't read too much of the link.

meanredspider wrote:

The problem with calories from alcohol is that they ARE calories and your body can burn them readily. The body then doesn't need the calories from other sources which can be stored/kept as fat reserves. We tend to have evolved to like highly calorific food sources.

Brian Marcel: "Normally, the body’s primary source of energy comes from carbohydrates. If no carbohydrates are present, the body’s secondary source of energy comes from stored fat. But when alcohol is present, the body’s primary fuel source becomes acetate from the alcohol. Effectively, your body is utilizing the alcohol for energy , not calories. So what does your body do with all of the calories from alcohol? In heavy drinkers, a mechanism called the microsomal ethanol oxidizing system converts the alcohol into heat (energy). Any energy in excess of what is required to maintain the body’s temperature is simply wasted. It isn’t stored. The excessive drinker’s body is so busy detoxifying itself that, regardless of the number of calories taken in from alcohol, your body has no way of storing those calories as fat. That helps explain why, as a whole, people who drink alcohol tend to weigh less than those who don’t."

meanredspider

vs wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

The problem with calories from alcohol is that they ARE calories and your body can burn them readily. The body then doesn't need the calories from other sources which can be stored/kept as fat reserves. We tend to have evolved to like highly calorific food sources.

Brian Marcel: "Normally, the body’s primary source of energy comes from carbohydrates. If no carbohydrates are present, the body’s secondary source of energy comes from stored fat. But when alcohol is present, the body’s primary fuel source becomes acetate from the alcohol. Effectively, your body is utilizing the alcohol for energy , not calories [eh?]. So what does your body do with all of the calories from alcohol? In heavy drinkers, a mechanism called the microsomal ethanol oxidizing system converts the alcohol into heat (energy). Any energy in excess of what is required to maintain the body’s temperature is simply wasted. It isn’t stored. The excessive drinker’s body is so busy detoxifying itself that, regardless of the number of calories taken in from alcohol, your body has no way of storing those calories as fat. That helps explain why, as a whole, people who drink alcohol tend to weigh less than those who don’t."

I don't know where you copied this from but it doesn't string together. I've tried to highlight the bits that don't work..

Alcohol for energy, not calories??? Calories ARE a measure of energy.

It then goes on to talk about "excessive drinkers" and then talks about "people who drink alcohol" - are they the same or different??? I've just had a glass of sparkling wine: is that calories from alcohol or calories? Is that "excessive"?

If you're quoting stuff, please see if it makes sense because this doesn't. I bet most of the calories from my glass of wine are simply just calories I've taken on. I'll burn those in preference fat stores.

vs

meanredspider wrote:

I don't know where you copied this from but it doesn't string together.

It's taken from the link I've already posted twice in this thread: http://www.bryanmarcel.com/calories-bee ... lcohol-fat

If you care to read the article in full, and understand the science, you may see that it makes a lot more sense than this:

meanredspider wrote:

I bet most of the calories from my glass of wine are simply just calories I've taken on. I'll burn those in preference fat stores.

meanredspider

vs wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I don't know where you copied this from but it doesn't string together.

It's taken from the link I've already posted twice in this thread: http://www.bryanmarcel.com/calories-bee ... lcohol-fat

If you care to read the article in full, and understand the science, you may see that it makes a lot more sense than this:

meanredspider wrote:

I bet most of the calories from my glass of wine are simply just calories I've taken on. I'll burn those in preference fat stores.

Woo hoo - a "Certified Personal Trainer" - the Gold Standard of nutritional expertise... :roll:

It's no wonder it doesn't string together.

I've spent 8 of the last 10 years working on blood glucose measurement and insulin pump development for the largest medical device company in the world. In the R&D organisation I worked in, we had experts (endocrinologists, haematologists, specialist diabetes nurses, and lots of other people with PhD qualifications in this stuff) who taught us the science behind this. As director of development quality, it was important I understood the science of how the body metabolises all forms of calories. Additionally, I've learned to read documents on the science and spot when someone knows what they're talking about. Quoting the blog from a personal trainer who has clearly pulled that from somewhere else doesn't make it good science.

vs

meanredspider wrote:

Quoting the blog from a personal trainer who has clearly pulled that from somewhere else doesn't make it good science.

Doesn't necessarily make it bad science either, as you said he's 'clearly pulled it from somewhere else', maybe someone with a 'PhD'