Wiggone!!

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  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    pinarello001 wrote:
    A SKY team where Wiggins was no. 1 and Froome playing a support role for the TdF...nope
    A SKY team where Froome was no. 1 and Wiggins playing the support role for the TdF...can't see it.
    It is a circle that can't be squared.

    Wiggins would not want to be number 2. Froome was more than instrumental in Wiggin's 2012 win but Froome has a right not to be second to Wiggins.
    Either way, neither of them would have beaten Nibali.

    I wouldn't want to be number 2 to Froome. Has he ever bestowed any favours or done anything for his domestiques?

    Froome was instrumental in the 2012 TdF as much in his undermining of Wiggins as helping him win

    Froome has a right not to be second to Wiggins, really? I think the parcours dictates who should be first or second in any team. If there are substantial time trial stages then I would say that Froome has no particular right at all.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I think Wiggo has been unfairly painted as the villain of the piece here.Let's check what we know

    1. Froome obtained the nickname "Fenton" at the 2012 Tour because it was he who was difficult to manage, riding off and wasn't following team orders. Cycling fans could see that on the road and it was verified by the in car cameras showing Yates shouting down the radio at Froome.

    In that scenario who isn't following team orders?

    2. Following the disastrous madison performance in Bejing Wiggins repaid a big debt to Cavendish by doing the most influential turn on the front in Copenhagen to secure Cav's WC win. Froome's contribution to a WC team is debateable at best.

    3.Having secured the yellow jersey in the 2012 Tour Wiggins then put himself out twice for Cav in lead outs to secure further stage wins for Cav one being on the Champs. You could argue that Froome has never been in a position to do that but the only time I can remember Froome "repaying a friend" was when he robbed Porte of a stage race (was it the criterium international?) in 2013. Porte finished 2nd on the stage and the race but was too gracious to say anything about it.

    4.Who of the two has played the biggest face to ensure the other wouldn't be in the same team?....Froome 2014 TdF

    So of the two who would I trust most? It is Wiggins by a long chalk. With Wiggo what you see is what you get. Froome is the sneaky kid in the playground who causes the trouble, convinces the Teacher and gets away with it.

    +lots. I firmly believe the Wiggo of 2012 would have beaten the Fenton of 2014.
    I have warmed to Fenton a bit based on his gutsy performance at the Vuelta but still believe the spat is primarily due to his behaviour in the 2011 Vuelta and 2012 Tour.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I think Wiggo has been unfairly painted as the villain of the piece here.Let's check what we know

    1. Froome obtained the nickname "Fenton" at the 2012 Tour because it was he who was difficult to manage, riding off and wasn't following team orders. Cycling fans could see that on the road and it was verified by the in car cameras showing Yates shouting down the radio at Froome.

    In that scenario who isn't following team orders?

    You've painted one side of the story there, haven't you?

    Froome was told by Brailsford, and had some wording in his contract to the effect that he would be supported in his GC ambitions. On the first day, when he crashed, the team did nothing to help him, despite their assurances. Brailsford admitted that was wrong later on and apologised. Wiggins was the one who refused to talk to Froome and delivered messages via Yates etc.

    From what I've heard from people slightly involved with the team is that Froome is easy to manage, no real hassle and a nice guy. Wiggins is a diva and a lot of people are happier when he's not around, but he's popular with the public.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    iainf72 wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I think Wiggo has been unfairly painted as the villain of the piece here.Let's check what we know

    1. Froome obtained the nickname "Fenton" at the 2012 Tour because it was he who was difficult to manage, riding off and wasn't following team orders. Cycling fans could see that on the road and it was verified by the in car cameras showing Yates shouting down the radio at Froome.

    In that scenario who isn't following team orders?

    You've painted one side of the story there, haven't you?

    Froome was told by Brailsford, and had some wording in his contract to the effect that he would be supported in his GC ambitions. On the first day, when he crashed, the team did nothing to help him, despite their assurances. Brailsford admitted that was wrong later on and apologised. Wiggins was the one who refused to talk to Froome and delivered messages via Yates etc.
    Not to mention that his (in)famous bouts of "riding off" lasted literally a handful of seconds in each case, that he came back when told by the team, that nothing he did actually had any impact on the result (Wiggins being a drama queen aside) and that he did exactly the job he was supposed to do by finishing right alongside Wiggins on every MTF (well maybe not LPdBF :P).

    If Froome was the more conventionally media-friendly of the two (not that he's anywhere near as "boring" as many people say he is) then the whole thing would most likely be looked at in a very different light, less sympathetic to Wiggins.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,434
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    Froome obtained the nickname "Fenton" at the 2012 Tour because it was he who was difficult to manage, riding off and wasn't following team orders..

    Always thought he was more Springer Spaniel than Cujo in this scenario....
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Funny how everyone who falls out of favour with BC/Sky is "difficult to manage" - Cooke, Wiggins, Pendleton et al. Maybe he's not difficult to manage it's just that the management style is too inflexible to accommodate some of our best talents. Dan Martin is another who didn't fit in.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Funny how everyone who falls out of favour with BC/Sky is "difficult to manage" - Cooke, Wiggins, Pendleton et al. Maybe he's not difficult to manage it's just that the management style is too inflexible to accommodate some of our best talents. Dan Martin is another who didn't fit in.
    Yes, they failed to accommodate them to the tune of seven Olympic gold medals and seventeen World championships.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    clanton wrote:
    +lots. I firmly believe the Wiggo of 2012 would have beaten the Fenton of 2014.

    To be honest mate i think what you re saying is that you re a big Wiggins fan and you wanted your boy to ride. Now that's fine but it's not a reason to put him in a TdF team
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,434
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Dan Martin is another who didn't fit in.

    Was that not just because they were all about track?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    TailWindHome wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Dan Martin is another who didn't fit in.

    Was that not just because they were all about track?

    I read the other day that it was partly that and partly he didn't like the culture - too structured too much their way or the highway.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Dan Martin is another who didn't fit in.

    Was that not just because they were all about track?

    I read the other day that it was partly that and partly he didn't like the culture - too structured too much their way or the highway.

    I imagine British road cycling looks a fair bit different to a junior roadie now than it did 5-6 years ago.
    _
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    RichN95 wrote:
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    Funny how everyone who falls out of favour with BC/Sky is "difficult to manage" - Cooke, Wiggins, Pendleton et al. Maybe he's not difficult to manage it's just that the management style is too inflexible to accommodate some of our best talents. Dan Martin is another who didn't fit in.
    Yes, they failed to accommodate them to the tune of seven Olympic gold medals and seventeen World championships.


    Exactly that kind of talent is out on its arse early and described as "difficult". We can add Pooley and Armitstead to the list of those that are "difficult" too.

    My point isn't that there hasn't been success - just that because you've heard second hand from someone connected to Sky/BC that Wiggins is difficult to manage shouldn't be taken as gospel because quite a few riders have been labelled as such - maybe there is a bit of fault on both sides.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    iainf72 wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I think Wiggo has been unfairly painted as the villain of the piece here.Let's check what we know

    1. Froome obtained the nickname "Fenton" at the 2012 Tour because it was he who was difficult to manage, riding off and wasn't following team orders. Cycling fans could see that on the road and it was verified by the in car cameras showing Yates shouting down the radio at Froome.

    In that scenario who isn't following team orders?

    You've painted one side of the story there, haven't you?

    Froome was told by Brailsford, and had some wording in his contract to the effect that he would be supported in his GC ambitions. On the first day, when he crashed, the team did nothing to help him, despite their assurances. Brailsford admitted that was wrong later on and apologised. Wiggins was the one who refused to talk to Froome and delivered messages via Yates etc.

    From what I've heard from people slightly involved with the team is that Froome is easy to manage, no real hassle and a nice guy. Wiggins is a diva and a lot of people are happier when he's not around, but he's popular with the public.

    That's the side that I saw watching the race and the on board camera footage of Yates shouting down the radio confirmed. If that paints a one sided story that's because I have no inside (albeit hearsay) evidence to go on.

    There was a lot of bull afterwards about Froome not being able to hear instructions. I'm not convinced about that.

    The point I'm making is that it is very easy to slag someone off because he' can be a bit sweary, petulant and uncommunicative and by the same token it's easier to like someone who comes across as mild mannered and inoffensive in interviews. However, as the rest of my post states I haven't seen that many acts of generosity or leaving it on the road as a team leader for your team mates (which let's be honest is where it counts) from Froome but I have seen it from Wiggins.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    I think if you re interested in knowing both sides YP, you need to read Froome's autobiography.

    Plus by his own admission, when he does work for others, he tends to do it in the pre-televised part of the race a there are better people at doing final leadouts or the Hincapie-esque last km role. He even isn't much good on Ardennes style climbs.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    ddraver wrote:
    I think if you re interested in knowing both sides YP, you need to read Froome's autobiography.

    Plus by his own admission, when he does work for others, he tends to do it in the pre-televised part of the race a there are better people at doing final leadouts or the Hincapie-esque last km role. He even isn't much good on Ardennes style climbs.

    I'll admit to not having read Froome's autobiography. I have read Wiggins' but I haven't based my argument on that but what I've seen in racing and behind the scenes documentaries. I understand that he may be doing work earlier in races but that's easy to say. As a decent timetrialler I still think he his capable of a Martin/Wiggins big turn and taking that stage race from Porte in 2013 still baffles me. also Wiggins didn't have to go out on a limb in 2012 for Cav I just can't see Froome ever making such a gesture

    I am also mindful of post race explanations for incidents or those in autobiographies, take the current spat over lies/truth in KP's for example. Teams like any corporate body like to maintain a public image (perhaps with the exception of French teams who are more "emotional") and are very quick to come up with some cover up.

    a lot is also made as to who would have won 2012 or 2013 had they both been in it and racing for the shirt. I think the results as they stand are a fair reflection as the parcours suited the winner of each particular race.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    You re getting in to "he should do it because his name is Chris Froome" here rather than getting the best person to do the job. Reports from other riders suggests that Froome is as good a team mate as any other.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    ddraver wrote:
    I think if you re interested in knowing both sides YP, you need to read Froome's autobiography.

    I'm not sure reading the autobiography of one of the key protagonists in an event is the best way to get the truth of it (see also KP's autobiog)
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Reading both and then using the soft spongy thing between your ears to make your own conclusions is not a bad way though
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    ddraver wrote:
    You re getting in to "he should do it because his name is Chris Froome" here rather than getting the best person to do the job. Reports from other riders suggests that Froome is as good a team mate as any other.

    Not at all. Both Froome and Wiggins have been team leaders and both in yellow. I don't think I would necessarily have picked Wiggins as a lead out man and to be honest not anyone in a yellow jersey because they just don't do that sort of thing. I don't recall Merckx, Hinault or the American that didn't win any Tours doing it either.

    The point I'm really making is that despite how bad a team mate Wiggins is alleged to be there are examples on the road whereby he has turned convention on its head and gone out of his way to set a team mate up for a win. I just don't think he is the bad guy everyone makes out. Froome is mentioned because this is all about how brilliant he is and how bad Wiggins is. All I'm doing is highlighting those areas (and quite unique ones at that) where Wiggins has shown himself to be the team player that everyone says he isn't.

    Also I don't recall any "Wiggo's a bad teammate" issues while he was at FDJ, Cofidis, Garmin or all those years at Linda McCartney. But I'm happy to stand corrected on that. In fact wasn't JV sorry to see him go from Garmin?
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    The point I'm really making is that despite how bad a team mate Wiggins is alleged to be there are examples on the road whereby he has turned convention on its head and gone out of his way to set a team mate up for a win.
    In all those examples the team mate is the same person though.
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    Also I don't recall any "Wiggo's a bad teammate" issues while he was at FDJ, Cofidis, Garmin or all those years at Linda McCartney. But I'm happy to stand corrected on that. In fact wasn't JV sorry to see him go from Garmin?
    Millar complained about him going missing when he was supposed to be helping Farrar in Paris.
    And as for the French teams, I doubt they had much of a coherent team strategy anyway. (He never actually did a race for LMcC)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    RichN95 wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    The point I'm really making is that despite how bad a team mate Wiggins is alleged to be there are examples on the road whereby he has turned convention on its head and gone out of his way to set a team mate up for a win.
    In all those examples the team mate is the same person though.


    That's right Rich, that's why I went on to make the point about Porte and opportunities that Froome has had to pay him back. All I can remember is Froome taking that stage race from him last year.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    That's right Rich, that's why I went on to make the point about Porte and opportunities that Froome has had to pay him back. All I can remember is Froome taking that stage race from him last year.
    But maybe that was the predetermined plan.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    RichN95 wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    The point I'm really making is that despite how bad a team mate Wiggins is alleged to be there are examples on the road whereby he has turned convention on its head and gone out of his way to set a team mate up for a win.
    In all those examples the team mate is the same person though.
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    Also I don't recall any "Wiggo's a bad teammate" issues while he was at FDJ, Cofidis, Garmin or all those years at Linda McCartney. But I'm happy to stand corrected on that. In fact wasn't JV sorry to see him go from Garmin?
    Millar complained about him going missing when he was supposed to be helping Farrar in Paris.
    And as for the French teams, I doubt they had much of a coherent team strategy anyway. (He never actually did a race for LMcC)

    I'll turn the Irony dial up
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    OK YP, we get it - we should all like the lovely Sir Bradley and hate the nasty Mr Froome (boo hiss).
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    Childish
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    adr82 wrote:
    OK YP, we get it - we should all like the lovely Sir Bradley and hate the nasty Mr Froome (boo hiss).
    :):):) not at all I'm just trying to redress the balance a little and put a case from a point of what anyone who follows cycling has actually seen and heard for themselves as opposed to the hearsay of what is believed to be happening within. The preceding 15 pages or so appear to me to have been quite harsh on Wiggo hence my posts.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Wiggins has got a new tattoo. It looks awful like the other ones. You can see it here along with some other 'interesting' photos:
    http://instagram.com/bradwiggins
    Contador is the Greatest
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    OK YP, we get it - we should all like the lovely Sir Bradley and hate the nasty Mr Froome (boo hiss).
    :):):) not at all I'm just trying to redress the balance a little and put a case from a point of what anyone who follows cycling has actually seen and heard for themselves as opposed to the hearsay of what is believed to be happening within. The preceding 15 pages or so appear to me to have been quite harsh on Wiggo hence my posts.
    Well he isn't blameless in all this, is he? Both are very good cyclists, both have their good and bad points, and it's unfortunate that they don't seem to like each other for whatever reasons. But I would have said if anything Wiggins usually gets the benefit of the doubt because he's more of a "personality" than Froome as far as the media and general public are concerned.

    For all the abuse Froome got and still gets for the TdF in 2012, he worked for Wiggins repeatedly throughout that race, very very quickly backed off when he did something the team didn't like, and generally played the role of super-domestique pretty well in the end. I can understand his frustration at not being given more leeway to ride for himself when he had believed going into the event that Sky would support him in that respect. If you read his autobiography it goes into more detail in that area. All that said, I'm not blind to Froome's flaws, eg it did seem weird that he rode away from Porte to win the CI last year... but then again they're still apparently the best of friends so either it was a predetermined plan or Porte simply wasn't that bothered about it.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    I want to hate him, because he's a glory hunting pie eater fan... but I can't help but love Wiggins.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I want to hate him, because he's a glory hunting pie eater fan... but I can't help but love Wiggins.

    Let's face it, you don't like him for his scintillating road riding, attacking and tactical prowess though, do you?
    _

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