Spectacular crash (link from Roadcc)

rolf_f

It's funny how even on here people will blame a cyclist for travelling in a straight line on a clear road at a suitable speed! Of course, you can slow down every time you see someone who might pull out on you but at that point you might as well give up cycling and wait for the Government to build us Dutch style cycle lanes.

I've had exactly this crash myself (albeit less spectacularly and with a 'nooooo' rather than the swearing). Car turned right across my path. It had been sat in the opposite carriageway quite happily but chose to pull across my lane just as I arrived. I hit the car side on, doing 20mph (virtually in primary), just behind the drivers door stopping dead without any acrobatics aside from my chin hitting the floor. What have I learned from that? I think I am a bit more paranoid about cars waiting to cross my path but I can't see that jamming my brakes on every 100 yards in anticipation is going to make my ride much safer.

As for the driver - he was very considerate (even commented on how bright my lights were.....) - did I want him to lose his licence? No, not really. I think he was given the option to do a safety course or get prosecuted. I'd imagine he went for the former. It would be nice though if 18 months later I wasn't still waiting for my bike to be paid for.........

kurako

I am not trying to blame cyclists. I am saying that when you have a prang there is nearly always things you could have done differently. First Aspect I am sorry you got hurt. It looks very nasty. Do you think in the case where you got hurt there is anything you would have done differently if you thought the driver had NOT seen you?

The reason I ask is I used to ascribe to the notion that making eye contact was better. Car pulling out? Eye contact. Ped crossing? Eye contact. Guess what? They would go anyway. I think in their mind they go 'oh the cyclist has seen me it must be safe to go he wouldn't look at me and rider into me'. Now I try to avoid eye contact with anyone I don't actually want to move. I let them think they haven't seen me and I assume the same of them.

I'm not meaning to be insulting honestly. I have changed the way I ride over the past ten years. I used to ride balls out wherever I went. I would get p!ssed off at people getting in my way. I even got a helmet cam for a while. I did some really stupid things but came out fairly unscathed (yes I am lucky). Then I learned to chill out a bit and take it easier, cut people some slack. I try to anticipate danger and actively avoid it. I can still push the speed if I want to but I find I choose my moments better. That is what I am trying to put across but people see that as 'blaming'.

Origamist

Kurako wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.

You mean towards the end when the van pulls across and I virtually grind to a halt? Hey I was in the bus lane he shouldn't be doing that. What exactly do you think I preach? I am not saying slow down for every junction. I am saying anticipate danger and plan ahead. Always have an escape route. How can anyone argue with that?

You’re upbraiding a cyclist for not being sufficiently road savvy and then you helpfully link to film clips where you behave in a similar manner. Arguably, the Kurako© footage demonstrates even poorer defensive riding than that seen in the OP. Is it any wonder people are picking holes in your arguments?

kurako

Origamist wrote:

Kurako wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.

You mean towards the end when the van pulls across and I virtually grind to a halt? Hey I was in the bus lane he shouldn't be doing that. What exactly do you think I preach? I am not saying slow down for every junction. I am saying anticipate danger and plan ahead. Always have an escape route. How can anyone argue with that?

You’re upbraiding a cyclist for not being sufficiently road savvy and then you helpfully link to film clips where you behave in a similar manner. Arguably, the Kurako© footage demonstrates even poorer defensive riding than that seen in the OP. Is it any wonder people are picking holes in your arguments?

It was a long time ago. See my last comment above. Would I ride like that now? Hmm I dunno. It's very situational. Undertaking in a bus lane with no junction? Probably. Approaching a junction with a car indicating. Hmmm would make a judgement call. Ideally a car would give a nice early indication and there'd be space to move around the outside. Even then it's not cut and dry. If the car decides not to turn or even stops there is the danger of going into the back of it. (I have done that!)

kurako

Origamist wrote:

You’re upbraiding a cyclist

To uppraid: to find fault; to scold.

Once again I am not trying to 'blame'. I am asking is there anything he would have done differently with the benefit of hindsight. Often there are one or two adjustments to be made. Less speed/ better anticipation? Probably. If you can look at a situation and say 'no there's nothing I would change' then yeah tough luck. Sometimes there really nothing you can do.

rick_chasey

Kurako

What could the driver have done differently?

Or are you just trolling? Hmm?

peat

I have getting my knickers in a twist about the whole drivers vs cyclists thing recently.

It started with a mate at the pub and what started as a sensible conversation about him pondering getting a bike after years out of the saddle. A pint later it had turned into a frothing tirade (from him) about 'f***ing cyclists'. It was really quite vitriolic and I was pretty shocked at just how much hate bubbled up in such a short a space of time.

If my mate is 'average Joe' then the comments on facebook/youtube ring true. There is a MASSIVE gulf in opinion/understanding when it comes to cycling accidents.

One admission my friend made, which was good and bad at the same time was "I must say, since you (me) have started riding I do tend to give cyclists alot more space because I remember that they are a person" but then was immediately followed with "but some guys really are asking for it. This one guy I saw did.......<insert generic anecdotal evidence that all cyclist deserved to be flattened>". Sigh.

Blaming that bloke in the video for that crash is the same as blaming a girl for getting raped. Could he have taken precautionary measures? Most probably. But, the transgression lays soley at the feet of the driver in that instance.

kurako

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kurako

What could the driver have done differently?

Or are you just trolling? Hmm?

If you think I am trolling then ban me. Everyone knows what the driver should have done. The cyclist had priority so the driver should have waited until it was safe to turn. The driver is 100% at fault. That is not debatable. My point is it is not advisable to place your safety entirely in the hands of a third party.

We all know what *should* happen. It is also sensible to plan for what *should not* happen. In my experience and approaching a situation like that I would ease off, definitely freewheel, probably tap the brakes a few times and be ready for signs that either car is going to move. Having done all those things if I still get hit then I put it down to terrible luck plus driver incompetence.

Now I won't say that is always the way I would have done things it has taken years and some bumps and knocks to get to this point.

slowbike

Peat wrote:

Blaming that bloke in the video for that crash is the same as blaming a girl for getting raped. Could he have taken precautionary measures? Most probably. But, the transgression lays soley at the feet of the driver in that instance.

Having watched the video for a second time, other than covering brakes as I tend to do so when there's traffic around, I'm not sure if there's anything I'd do differently to the cyclist - but most of that is because I can't see where his hands are, what effort he's putting in or what he's focusing on plus we don't get to see the car until the last second - so no way of judging if it looked like it was slowing down to stop, or just slowing down or what - perhaps the rider didn't see either.

Yes, the driver of the car is at fault for the accident. However, in general I do feel it is necessary for us cyclists to look out for themselves far more than we should have to - and thus we have to take avoidance for potential collisions that are not of our own making. That doesn't make the cyclist at fault either all or partial for collisions where a vehicle has crossed the path of a cyclist when they're not the priority vehicle - it's purely a method of self preservation and taking precautions where it's prudent to do so.
I could quite happily guess that someone riding at ~10mph in that situation would've probably avoided the accident by virtue that the closing speed was much slower and they'd have time to brake (if they were covering brakes too). But that doesn't mean that we should all go around slower all the time - just where we consider it prudent to do so - which may or may not have been in this situation, not enough video to tell.

First.Aspect

Kurako wrote:

I am not trying to blame cyclists. I am saying that when you have a prang there is nearly always things you could have done differently. First Aspect I am sorry you got hurt. It looks very nasty. Do you think in the case where you got hurt there is anything you would have done differently if you thought the driver had NOT seen you?

The reason I ask is I used to ascribe to the notion that making eye contact was better. Car pulling out? Eye contact. Ped crossing? Eye contact. Guess what? They would go anyway. I think in their mind they go 'oh the cyclist has seen me it must be safe to go he wouldn't look at me and rider into me'. Now I try to avoid eye contact with anyone I don't actually want to move. I let them think they haven't seen me and I assume the same of them.

I'm not meaning to be insulting honestly. I have changed the way I ride over the past ten years. I used to ride balls out wherever I went. I would get p!ssed off at people getting in my way. I even got a helmet cam for a while. I did some really stupid things but came out fairly unscathed (yes I am lucky). Then I learned to chill out a bit and take it easier, cut people some slack. I try to anticipate danger and actively avoid it. I can still push the speed if I want to but I find I choose my moments better. That is what I am trying to put across but people see that as 'blaming'.

Very firmly, the answer is no. The car made it 2/3 of the way across the road I was on before I had made it 1/2 of the way across the road he was heading into. So despite taking all reasonable precautions, I was collected on the way through.

You are the first person I have heard try to argue that making eye contact can be a bad idea. FFS. Besides, you misread my post. I was talking about whether the driver had looked my way, and vice versa, not about some mystical "dog whisperer" type interaction which you seem to think I expect by looking at a driver. Which is insulting by the way, seeing as I've probably be cycling for longer than you've been alive.

When cycling you have to constantly evaluate probabilities. If all you have seen is the back of a driver's head, they are less likely to have seen you than a driver who at least has looked both ways, for example. Nonetheless, you always head across a junction with some degree of caution, as did the chap in the video (he was in the primary). However, no matter what precautions you take, if a driver does something sudden and unexpected, there may be nothing you can do. In my case, if a 4l Jag rockets out of a side road across a junction when you are 20 feet away, having sat there paitently for the preceding 20 seconds as you trundle up to the junction, its just tough titty.

There is a reason 1500 people die each year in RTAs. Or do you presume that all of the "victims" there should have been covering the brakes?

Turning now to your prowess - we will have to take your word for it that your cycling has improved since you sent us the link to how good you are.

I would point out to you, however, the oft quoted statistic that 90% of drivers think they are above average. I have no doubt this extends to other forms of transport. Your posts ooze confidence in your own judgement, you see, to the extent of placing yourself above a guy who was t-boned through no fault of his own. You believe, firmly, that it wouldn't happen to you. You know when to push and when not to push, you see. You can see where there is danger before it happens.

After all, nothing's happened to you has it? So you must be right.

kurako

FirstAspect, I am very sorry if I have offended you. I am just stating my opinion based on my experience and the things that work for me. If you think I am arrogant or even a d!ck well that is up to you to decide. I am not going to take it personally.

To clarify my eye contact comment. The perceived wisdom is 'always make eye contact'. This starts a process of communication. The trouble is the faster you are going the less chance to successfully make contact. It can also be confusing as to what it means. One person thinks I can go the other thinks you can't go. This is why in the particular case of someone trying to cross my path when I don't want them to I will make a point of not making eye contact. This does not mean I am not watching to see what they are doing or prepared for something stupid. In another situation say I am behind a lorry or a cab and he wants to turn and is checking to see if I will try to come past I will often give a smile and a nod maybe even a raised arm or thumbs up. In that instance I really do mean 'yeah fine carry on'.

My comment about judging when to push it or when to take it easy is also situational. On a long straight road with no traffic I will try to go as fast as I can. In moderate traffic I will keep with the general flow if possible. In heavy traffic I ease right off. I ride a short stretch of Embankment most mornings I get passed by people giving it great guns. I used to get bothered about being scalped now I don't really care.

People all pile up to be at the front at the lights. It's safer to be in front they say. In an ideal world maybe but in an ideal world all drivers are careful and considerate. In London some drivers are careful and considerate. Some are impatient or incompetent or distracted. Some don't give a sh!t or are just plain malicious. You think the law will help? The law is a joke especially when it comes to motoring offences we all know this. You have to have your wits about because you can't rely on anyone but yourself.

So again if you think I am arrogant or dislike me for what I have written I am sorry. I am also very sorry if you feel insulted or otherwise slighted. These are just my thoughts you don't have to agree.

EKE_38BPM

Kurako wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kurako

What could the driver have done differently?

Or are you just trolling? Hmm?

If you think I am trolling then ban me.

I can almost hear Ian Dury singing:
"Hit me with your banning stick,
Hit me, hit me.
Hit me slowly, hit me quick.
Hit me.
HIT ME,
HIT ME!!!"


Kurako, as soon as you leave a building you have to trust total strangers to obey the rules and not mow you down. As a pedestrian you trust every road user to stick to the road rather than driving/riding on the pavement. As a cyclist you trust drivers turning right (major to minor) to take effective observation and see the cyclist travelling towards the junction on the major road and not drive into them.

kurako

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Kurako wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Kurako

What could the driver have done differently?

Or are you just trolling? Hmm?

If you think I am trolling then ban me.

I can almost hear Ian Dury singing:
"Hit me with your banning stick,
Hit me, hit me.
Hit me slowly, hit me quick.
Hit me.
HIT ME,
HIT ME!!!"


Kurako, as soon as you leave a building you have to trust total strangers to obey the rules and not mow you down. As a pedestrian you trust every road user to stick to the road rather than driving/riding on the pavement. As a cyclist you trust drivers turning right (major to minor) to take effective observation and see the cyclist travelling towards the junction on the major road and not drive into them.

Yeah and there have been cars crashing into building all over London. There was even a paramedic car ended up going through the window of an insurance agent. Luckily it was just after they guys had finished work and they weren't sitting at their desks at the time. There are some scary sh!t drivers out there. Yes I agree sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time but there are reasonable measures you can take to lessen the risk of that happening.

A car in front of you travelling in the same direction is unlikely to hit you. Head on can be a danger depending where you are in the road. Cars crossing your path definitely a big danger but you still have a degree of control in how fast you are going irrespective of what the driver does. Cars coming from behind you have pretty much no control over other than trying to dive out of the way. That's why sending all the bikes to the front at junctions is mad. It just causes additional opportunities to be rear ended or have a bad overtake from some twunt.

Kieran_Burns

I just posted this on the vid page:

This I think is a classic example of the 'looming effect'. In that an object when viewed from a distance does not appreciably grow in size until the last moment. It's the cause of the SMIDSY in that the (motor)cyclist is a small object when viewed head on and does not figure in the brains 'danger perception' (it doesn't register on the radar of threats).

This means a small glance will not register the (motor)cyclist is approaching at an appreciable speed and the inattentive driver will pull out not knowing they are there.

Two things to combat this:
1. Drivers: PAY ATTENTION (cough) look twice and look carefully at every junction
2. (motor)Cyclists if you are not sure you have been seen, either scrub some speed, OR weave LATERALLY in the road, i.e. side to side. This will immediately increase your visible profile and get you noticed.

Suffice to say: the fault lies entirely with the driver. She has an absolute responsibility to drive with due and attention (to other road users) and in this case failed in that responsibility.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

As someone who ploughed into the back of a dustbin lorry just before Xmas 2013 (on that awful weather warning Monday), that video was scary as hell! Wish I had got so lucky as the cyclist, spent Xmas in hospital with my fractured upper jaw/ lower nose put back together with permanent plates on Xmas Day and my fractured hand screwed back together New Years Eve.

He should buy a lottery ticket, destiny calls!

jedster

That was a shameful piece of driving - totally the driver's fault.

But as we are on a cycling forum not a driving one it is perfectly sensible to ask could the cyclist have done anything different to put themselves at less risk of being cleaned up by a feckwit.

Have to say that watching that headcam footage wasn't pleasant. Even before that junction we had a car nosing out off a forecourt into the cycle lane and a car with sticking out at a junction. My hackles were rising, hazard radar flashing around those. I thought the cyclist's road positioning was really good around those hazards.

As other people said, the hazard radar was going to overdrive before the crash. You have got a junction when two cars from opposite directions threaten to impinge on your road and are probably distracted by each other. This is a risky moment. It shouldn't be - you have complete right of way. It is though.

I was a bit surprised about the tone of Eke's comment earlier given he is a cycle trainer. In that situation there is NO WAY I'm going to COMPLETELY trust the drivers to do the right thing. Absolutely we do have to put our lives in other's hands when we drive or cycle but at the same time you need to be sensible about allowing for incompetence in dodgy situations.

I would have done three things differently in that situation - I was actually reacting as a I watched the first run through, head cams are quite immersive like that.
1. I would have eased off, not braked but stopped pedalling. I don't think he did that
2. I would have covered my brakes. Definitely. In fact given the two earlier moments with cars threatening to pull out, I'd have been covering already.
3. I'd have moved primary to central in the road. His positioning had been good earlier but on the approach to that junction he was just outside the line of a cycle lane. This meant he was quite close to the car waiting to pull out (or slip off clutch) and didn't have the option to go behind if the other car turned across him

Even doing those things might have made no difference. He'd have had more of a chance though.
Still completely the driver's fault.