Spectacular crash (link from Roadcc)

Kieran_Burns
Kieran_Burns Posts: 9,757
edited July 2014 in Commuting chat
http://road.cc/content/news/124600-vide ... across-him

Keep the volume off.

Oh, and you might not want to read the YouTube comment section.
Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
2011 Trek Madone 4.5
2012 Felt F65X
Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
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Comments

  • What, so I can do that to a rider and he'll only get a few bruises! Brilliant, as a driver I am very happy that they'll not be any legal consequences for my inept driving either.
    If I know you, and I like you, you can borrow my bike box for £30 a week. PM for details.
  • Kieran_Burns
    Kieran_Burns Posts: 9,757
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • Kieran_Burns
    Kieran_Burns Posts: 9,757
    Best comment on YT so far:
    The European Space Agency just called, apparently the rest of your bike is de-orbiting over Paris right now.
    Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
    2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
    2011 Trek Madone 4.5
    2012 Felt F65X
    Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter
  • spasypaddy
    spasypaddy Posts: 5,180
    I had a much smaller accident than that last Sunday. Except I'm still in hospital after rupturing my patella tendon. And probably won't be able to ride a bike for 6 months minimum.
  • Wigster
    Wigster Posts: 47
    Love his reaction, I hope I'm that blasé if/when it happens to me.
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  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,567
    spasypaddy wrote:
    I had a much smaller accident than that last Sunday. Except I'm still in hospital after rupturing my patella tendon. And probably won't be able to ride a bike for 6 months minimum.
    Oh, sorry to hear that. Hope you heal well.
    In the video almost every car looks like it's trying to pull out on the guy. I expected the impact a couple of times before it actually happened.
  • spasypaddy
    spasypaddy Posts: 5,180
    Wigster wrote:
    Love his reaction, I hope I'm that blasé if/when it happens to me.
    As someone who it's happened to, it's very surreal when it happens. You don't tend to panic and you do tend to be like Meh afterwards. A few hours later it hits. Normally when the shock wears off
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    I'd be really pissed if that happened to me, there's a 6 month waiting list at Rourke's for a replacement!
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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  • sketchley
    sketchley Posts: 4,238
    Wow that's spectacular. I hit a women getting off a bus (between stops) looking the wrong way, a couple of years ago. I did a summersault trying to dive between her and the bus to avoid hitting her side on at 15 mph. The images of being upside down under bike is very familiar. I agree with the people saying you don't panic, I remember ending up sitting cross legged being in front of the bus knowing I'd broken my hand but oddly not feeling any pain and being very calm, too calm in fact. Brushed it off and didn't take any details off anyone. Fortunately the bus driver stopped up the road and gave me details so I was able to get bike repaired and hand sorted out as he admitted fault.
    --
    Chris

    Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/5
  • cookeeemonster
    cookeeemonster Posts: 1,991
    Seen this on a few places now. Some mugs on twitter and standard website (a cyclist no less) claiming that travelling at 8mph below the speed limit caused the accident...as we all know travelling slowly makes drivers give us tons of space and time...
  • dav1
    dav1 Posts: 1,298
    Saw the facebook thread full of comments along the lines of "it was the cyclists fault for being on the road" or "Its his fault, he wasn't using the cycle lane". Idiots...

    I'm amazed that he landed on his feat, given how much damage it did to the bike that must have been a super hard impact.
    Giant TCR advanced 2 (Summer/race)
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  • kurako
    kurako Posts: 1,098
    standard website (a cyclist no less) claiming that travelling at 8mph below the speed limit caused the accident

    I didn't say that the cyclist caused the accident by going 8mph below the speed limit. My point is that they cyclist could have shown better anticipation, slowed down a bit and had the brakes covered. From the road.cc article he does not seem to have been to have been very well prepared to stop. “I just about got my hands to the brakes (it can just be seen on the frame before impact) but I had no chance of stopping.

    Really if you are riding along and see a car facing you and indicating right and then it turns in front of you it's not a massive surprise. Yes the cylist had priority and did nothing wrong and the driver should have seen him and should have waited but if you are constantly relying on other people to keep you safe you are going to get hurt sooner or later.

    Ride safe.
    'Reg'
  • gbsahne001
    gbsahne001 Posts: 1,973
    It was in the DM as well (was sent the link hasten to add) and the comments there were in a similar vein
  • cookeeemonster
    cookeeemonster Posts: 1,991
    Kurako wrote:
    standard website (a cyclist no less) claiming that travelling at 8mph below the speed limit caused the accident

    I didn't say that the cyclist caused the accident by going 8mph below the speed limit. My point is that they cyclist could have shown better anticipation, slowed down a bit and had the brakes covered. From the road.cc article he does not seem to have been to have been very well prepared to stop. “I just about got my hands to the brakes (it can just be seen on the frame before impact) but I had no chance of stopping.

    Really if you are riding along and see a car facing you and indicating right and then it turns in front of you it's not a massive surprise. Yes the cylist had priority and did nothing wrong and the driver should have seen him and should have waited but if you are constantly relying on other people to keep you safe you are going to get hurt sooner or later.

    Ride safe.
    'Reg'

    I agree with you that you need to ride defensively and with the brakes covered, but there's literally nothing he could have done to stop that in my opinion. Slam on the brakes and he's off, same if he swerves violently to either side. If he was travelling 5mph slower then he still would have come off - maybe would hit a different bit and be worse off? I think he'd have to be going very slow to avoid it as she moves the car so fast...and in the real world people's reaction times will be a second or two before they make a decisive action...as we can see here.

    I just dont think his speed was an issue. Slower cyclists in my opinion get in far worse situations on the road because drivers are so impatient and aggressive towards them and take bigger risks to get around them.

    But anyway, we are all entitled to our opinion, and maybe I'm in the wrong. Luckily he got away with it and a new bike. Pretty disgusting that she seems to have escaped prosecution. She shouldn't have a license after that...and for all we know she may have protected no claims bonus despite the lying about fault :(
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 16,034
    Kurako wrote:
    standard website (a cyclist no less) claiming that travelling at 8mph below the speed limit caused the accident

    I didn't say that the cyclist caused the accident by going 8mph below the speed limit. My point is that they cyclist could have shown better anticipation, slowed down a bit and had the brakes covered. From the road.cc article he does not seem to have been to have been very well prepared to stop. “I just about got my hands to the brakes (it can just be seen on the frame before impact) but I had no chance of stopping.

    Really if you are riding along and see a car facing you and indicating right and then it turns in front of you it's not a massive surprise. Yes the cylist had priority and did nothing wrong and the driver should have seen him and should have waited but if you are constantly relying on other people to keep you safe you are going to get hurt sooner or later.

    Ride safe.
    'Reg'
    I fear that you are falling into the "its clear from the replay that he never touched him" trap. The whole thing was over extremely quickly. Perhaps you would have reacted in time to make a difference yourself, perhaps you wouldn't. Maybe the 0.2 secs it takes to get to the brakes would have made a difference. Maybe not. Perhaps the driver made eye contact (or appeared to). Perhaps not. You'll only know how hard it can be to avoid the inevitable once it happens to you.
  • roger_merriman
    roger_merriman Posts: 6,165
    Kurako wrote:
    standard website (a cyclist no less) claiming that travelling at 8mph below the speed limit caused the accident

    I didn't say that the cyclist caused the accident by going 8mph below the speed limit. My point is that they cyclist could have shown better anticipation, slowed down a bit and had the brakes covered. From the road.cc article he does not seem to have been to have been very well prepared to stop. “I just about got my hands to the brakes (it can just be seen on the frame before impact) but I had no chance of stopping.

    Really if you are riding along and see a car facing you and indicating right and then it turns in front of you it's not a massive surprise. Yes the cylist had priority and did nothing wrong and the driver should have seen him and should have waited but if you are constantly relying on other people to keep you safe you are going to get hurt sooner or later.

    Ride safe.
    'Reg'
    I fear that you are falling into the "its clear from the replay that he never touched him" trap. The whole thing was over extremely quickly. Perhaps you would have reacted in time to make a difference yourself, perhaps you wouldn't. Maybe the 0.2 secs it takes to get to the brakes would have made a difference. Maybe not. Perhaps the driver made eye contact (or appeared to). Perhaps not. You'll only know how hard it can be to avoid the inevitable once it happens to you.

    At 20mph or there abouts braking distance is a good 40feet (dry) It improbable that ones hands on or off the brakes would make any differance.
  • kurako
    kurako Posts: 1,098
    Ok in that case he's going too fast for the conditions. If you can't stop or take avoiding action you're going too fast. If you say 'I grabbed a handful of brakes but at that speed I was never going to stop in time' then guess what .... too fast.

    Now in that situation you're coming to a side road, there's a car waiting to pull out another waiting to turn in. What goes through your mind?

    A. I have priority. They have to wait. I am in the right and have a helmet cam to prove it.

    or

    B. Here look at these fcuk-wits. I bet one of them does something stupid. Better keep an eye on them.

    If B then there's a chance to avoid going over the bonnet and breaking a rather nice looking bike. As as rule of thumb assume the worst of everyone on the road. That way your only surprises will be pleasant ones.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    I subscibe to B
  • daddy0
    daddy0 Posts: 686
    Kurako wrote:
    Ok in that case he's going too fast for the conditions. If you can't stop or take avoiding action you're going too fast. If you say 'I grabbed a handful of brakes but at that speed I was never going to stop in time' then guess what .... too fast.

    Now in that situation you're coming to a side road, there's a car waiting to pull out another waiting to turn in. What goes through your mind?

    A. I have priority. They have to wait. I am in the right and have a helmet cam to prove it.

    or

    B. Here look at these fcuk-wits. I bet one of them does something stupid. Better keep an eye on them.

    If B then there's a chance to avoid going over the bonnet and breaking a rather nice looking bike. As as rule of thumb assume the worst of everyone on the road. That way your only surprises will be pleasant ones.

    Even if the guy was traveling a more sedate 15mph he wouldn't have been able to stop, so would you propose he halved his speed and kept in the cycle lane? Wheres the fun in that? :wink:

    As pointed out earlier - going nearer the speed of the traffic is sometimes safer. You certainly get less close overtakes for example.
  • cookeeemonster
    cookeeemonster Posts: 1,991
    Kurako wrote:
    Ok in that case he's going too fast for the conditions. If you can't stop or take avoiding action you're going too fast. If you say 'I grabbed a handful of brakes but at that speed I was never going to stop in time' then guess what .... too fast.

    Now in that situation you're coming to a side road, there's a car waiting to pull out another waiting to turn in. What goes through your mind?

    A. I have priority. They have to wait. I am in the right and have a helmet cam to prove it.

    or

    B. Here look at these fcuk-wits. I bet one of them does something stupid. Better keep an eye on them.

    If B then there's a chance to avoid going over the bonnet and breaking a rather nice looking bike. As as rule of thumb assume the worst of everyone on the road. That way your only surprises will be pleasant ones.

    Are you seriously suggesting it's safer for you to drop your speed from 20mph to 5mph at every junction where theres a car??? What if theres a car behind you? Will they expect you to do that? Would they stop in time and not hit you up the a*se?

    Would a car have been able to brake in time in the same circamstances? Because I've witnessed a crash between vehicles in exactly the same circumstances including rough speed (very possibly slower). And the car (or in this case a van) couldnt stop. Yet I'll bet you a million pounds that van driver would never think to slow down to 5mph every time he approaches a side road 'just in case' it happens again.

    I do get the slowing down thing and do it myself in those situations, but not to the massive extent that you're suggesting he should've done to be honest. You really have got to trust other traffic up to a point else you're better off on public transport and so on.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 16,034
    Kurako wrote:
    Ok in that case he's going too fast for the conditions. If you can't stop or take avoiding action you're going too fast. If you say 'I grabbed a handful of brakes but at that speed I was never going to stop in time' then guess what .... too fast.

    Now in that situation you're coming to a side road, there's a car waiting to pull out another waiting to turn in. What goes through your mind?

    A. I have priority. They have to wait. I am in the right and have a helmet cam to prove it.

    or

    B. Here look at these fcuk-wits. I bet one of them does something stupid. Better keep an eye on them.

    If B then there's a chance to avoid going over the bonnet and breaking a rather nice looking bike. As as rule of thumb assume the worst of everyone on the road. That way your only surprises will be pleasant ones.
    You believe the cyclist did not do B. You have no idea if this is true or not. Moreover, you believe that B would have made a difference. You have no idea if this is true or not. However, if you go around safe in the knowledge that you do B already and so its not going to happen to you, I suspect you are probably not doing B either.

    Take a look at my avatar. That's what B can look like.

    Out of courtesy, I watched the video again. The guy takes the primary. He's not going very fast. Its not clear from the video if the driver is indicating, but their turn starts from the normal road position, so at best the car swung into the turn without slowing very much and with little or no warning. Unless you slow down to a crawl and cover the brakes before single side road, Kurako, regardless of whether the traffic coming the other way shows any intention of turning, I would guess that even your spidey sense would have been no use.
  • Origamist
    Origamist Posts: 807
    I fear that you are falling into the "its clear from the replay that he never touched him" trap. The whole thing was over extremely quickly. Perhaps you would have reacted in time to make a difference yourself, perhaps you wouldn't. Maybe the 0.2 secs it takes to get to the brakes would have made a difference. Maybe not. Perhaps the driver made eye contact (or appeared to). Perhaps not. You'll only know how hard it can be to avoid the inevitable once it happens to you.

    Perhaps Kurako will provide us with film of his commute as it would be interesting to see how he puts his exemplary defensive cycling skills to use.
  • kurako
    kurako Posts: 1,098
    edited July 2014
    Well I ditched the helmet cam many years ago but here's one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl0SNys ... COSP6IN4eQ

    Oh and as quoted on road.cc... Hand to the break. No chance to stop. I was wearing a bright jacket. She should have seen me.. So no from what is written it does not sound so much like B. I think with better anticipation he could have scrubbed off a bit of speed and maybe still have a small prang but nothing massive.

    I was travelling around 22mph through Romford. Drizzly conditions so I was being cautious around bends and roundabouts. I didn't expect this!

    I just about got my hands to the brakes (it can just be seen on the frame before impact) but I had no chance of stopping.

    I'm not quite sure how I wasn't seen. I'm over 6ft and was wearing a bright blue jacket. If I was seen then it's a very bad judgement in my speed.

    What I would think in that situation is 'what if they haven't seen me?'

    I know sometimes its your turn there's nothing you can do. I got driven into by a woman pulling out of a petrol station and I wasn't even moving. It seriously hurt. If I had been going at speed it would probably have broken me and the bike. I still have the bent handlebars.
  • Origamist
    Origamist Posts: 807
    Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.
  • kurako
    kurako Posts: 1,098
    Origamist wrote:
    Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.

    You mean towards the end when the van pulls across and I virtually grind to a halt? Hey I was in the bus lane he shouldn't be doing that. What exactly do you think I preach? I am not saying slow down for every junction. I am saying anticipate danger and plan ahead. Always have an escape route. How can anyone argue with that?
  • dhope
    dhope Posts: 6,699
    Kurako wrote:
    Origamist wrote:
    Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.

    You mean towards the end when the van pulls across and I virtually grind to a halt? Hey I was in the bus lane he shouldn't be doing that. What exactly do you think I preach? I am not saying slow down for every junction. I am saying anticipate danger and plan ahead. Always have an escape route. How can anyone argue with that?
    What you didn't do is slow to a crawl at 2.30, when there was a car that could feasibly have turned across you, despite you being well placed and clearly visible. That's what happened to the guy on road.cc. Someone just drove into him.
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  • kurako
    kurako Posts: 1,098
    dhope wrote:
    Kurako wrote:
    Origamist wrote:
    Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.

    You mean towards the end when the van pulls across and I virtually grind to a halt? Hey I was in the bus lane he shouldn't be doing that. What exactly do you think I preach? I am not saying slow down for every junction. I am saying anticipate danger and plan ahead. Always have an escape route. How can anyone argue with that?
    What you didn't do is slow to a crawl at 2.30, when there was a car that could feasibly have turned across you, despite you being well placed and clearly visible. That's what happened to the guy on road.cc. Someone just drove into him.

    The vid isn't that long?

    I have done some dumb stuff in my time believe me. Around the time CS8 was opened I got pulled for an ill advised amber gamble. I am still adamant the light was not red. It was where the Circle Bar used to be. Cars were waiting to turn across me when I shot through. Motor bike cop who pulled me over said 'if one of them turned who do you think would come off worst?' he also said pointing at his huge police bike 'even that thing wouldn't have much chance'.

    From then on I have tried to be more alert and plan not just for what people *should* be doing but also for what happens if they do what they do what they *should not* be doing. You can't eliminate all risk but you can take steps to minimise it and whereas some say 'the cyclist couldn't have done anything different' I think there are lessons which can be learned. The fella is ok that's great. Is there anything he would do differently if the same situation arose tomorrow?

    I know in pretty much every bump and scrape I have ever had there are things which I could have done better (with the exception of the York Road petrol station bint who couldn't look out the front of her friggin car. Grrrrrr!!!!)
  • dhope
    dhope Posts: 6,699
    Kurako wrote:
    dhope wrote:
    Kurako wrote:
    Origamist wrote:
    Phew, good to see you don't practice what you preach.

    You mean towards the end when the van pulls across and I virtually grind to a halt? Hey I was in the bus lane he shouldn't be doing that. What exactly do you think I preach? I am not saying slow down for every junction. I am saying anticipate danger and plan ahead. Always have an escape route. How can anyone argue with that?
    What you didn't do is slow to a crawl at 2.30, when there was a car that could feasibly have turned across you, despite you being well placed and clearly visible. That's what happened to the guy on road.cc. Someone just drove into him.

    The vid isn't that long?
    Whoops, I clicked on the 'Stockwell to Vauxhall and no red lights!!!' link at some point. Couldn't tell the difference from the first vid, it's all just London commuting :wink:
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  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 16,034
    Kurako, there's not always an escape route, okay? The guy who helped me with my avatar was visible to me (and vice versa) for about 20 seconds. He was in a convertable. He looked my way at least four times. I, and judging by your posts, you too, would have regarded a stationary vehicle occupied by a driver who had clocked you four times as "safe".

    Turns out he hadn't seen me, despite me going cautiously down a shallow hill in the primary on a quiet road in bright sunshine, whilst covering the brakes, and he accellerated out of his junction right through me.

    So yes, your general advice to ride cautiously is indeed correct. However, it is NOT correct to assume that because the road.cc guy had an accident, he wasn't following this advice. You can either believe your eyes (he clearly isn't doing 35kph) or you can believe the man-points bravado associated with the video where he says he is. He did NOTHING WRONG.

    Stop being a tit and digging your heels in about this. Aside from anything else, it is pretty offensive.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 16,034
    By the way, I watched your vid.

    You hung around in the red van's blind spot quite a while. Good job he didn't turn left on you and instead let the car turn in front of him. The reason he did this might have been because he couldn't see you. At the start of the video, there is a car overlapping as you shoulder check to pull out past a nodder. You relied on him slowing to let you do this. You were undertaking two vans past a side road. From where you were, you couldn't tell if there was a right turning car or comeone coming straight across. You were lucky there. In fact, the white van might have turned there and left hooked you. You were in and out of the bus lane throughout. If I was driving behind you it would have been quite confusing as to which lane you wanted to be in. I wouldn't have overtaken you because you were weaving around all the time. Some cars would.

    Other than that, really good. I can see that you hit the brakes to allow the car slowly and carefully turning in front of you to pass. Not sure you'd have had much time to do anything if they hurled it into that turn at 10-15mph like the one on the road.cc video, though.