Protein and TTs

CleeRider

Would taking whey protein be beneficial to training for 25 mile TTs? (Or is a different form of protein better?)
The reason I ask is that most people appear to poo poo the idea of using protein shakes to improve cycling performance?

phreak

How much protein do you eat in your normal diet?

sloppyschleckonds

How does it help your cardio vascular fitness?

Shylock

Protein is critical for muscle recovery, you can either encompass it into your diet via eggs, meat etc or via a shake. If you are really training hard on the bike and doing strength work then protein is needed. It strength and cv are needed in riding. Just make sure you are not over eating. I still do strength work on days I don't ride so have a protein with creatine.

Be interested to get a dieticians thoughts on this.

phreak

Shylock wrote:

Protein is critical for muscle recovery, you can either encompass it into your diet via eggs, meat etc or via a shake. If you are really training hard on the bike and doing strength work then protein is needed. It strength and cv are needed in riding. Just make sure you are not over eating. I still do strength work on days I don't ride so have a protein with creatine.

Be interested to get a dieticians thoughts on this.

It's estimated that protein requirements for endurance athletes are between 1.2-1.4g of protein per kg of body weight. Considering for someone of 75kg (ie relatively heavy for a cyclist), you'd already get 1/3 of your requirements from a single chicken breast, I'd suggest most people get more than enough in their diet already.

I mean a simple meal of pasta with a couple of chicken breasts, maybe a bit of cheese on top, and you've got your recommended amount done in one meal.

frisbee

phreak wrote:

Shylock wrote:

Protein is critical for muscle recovery, you can either encompass it into your diet via eggs, meat etc or via a shake. If you are really training hard on the bike and doing strength work then protein is needed. It strength and cv are needed in riding. Just make sure you are not over eating. I still do strength work on days I don't ride so have a protein with creatine.

Be interested to get a dieticians thoughts on this.

It's estimated that protein requirements for endurance athletes are between 1.2-1.4g of protein per kg of body weight. Considering for someone of 75kg (ie relatively heavy for a cyclist), you'd already get 1/3 of your requirements from a single chicken breast, I'd suggest most people get more than enough in their diet already.

I mean a simple meal of pasta with a couple of chicken breasts, maybe a bit of cheese on top, and you've got your recommended amount done in one meal.

Most people would only have a single chicken breast in a meal. Apart from the cost, that's going to be a very meaty meal.

meanredspider

phreak wrote:

I mean a simple meal of pasta with a couple of chicken breasts, maybe a bit of cheese on top, and you've got your recommended amount done in one meal.

The problem with protein though is that your body can't store it like it can fat and sugars. That's one of the reasons athletes tend to have high protein diets to ensure that protein is available when the body can use it. What it can't use then it excretes in urea. I had a professional athletic dietician put together a program for me after seeing amazing results in a friend and there was far more protein in it than I was expecting - including peanut butter before bed. I didn't use that much protein but my body always had it "on tap". I got most of what I needed from natural sources but I got heartily sick of eating endless turkey, eggs and chicken.

phreak

frisbee wrote:

phreak wrote:

Shylock wrote:

Protein is critical for muscle recovery, you can either encompass it into your diet via eggs, meat etc or via a shake. If you are really training hard on the bike and doing strength work then protein is needed. It strength and cv are needed in riding. Just make sure you are not over eating. I still do strength work on days I don't ride so have a protein with creatine.

Be interested to get a dieticians thoughts on this.

It's estimated that protein requirements for endurance athletes are between 1.2-1.4g of protein per kg of body weight. Considering for someone of 75kg (ie relatively heavy for a cyclist), you'd already get 1/3 of your requirements from a single chicken breast, I'd suggest most people get more than enough in their diet already.

I mean a simple meal of pasta with a couple of chicken breasts, maybe a bit of cheese on top, and you've got your recommended amount done in one meal.

Most people would only have a single chicken breast in a meal. Apart from the cost, that's going to be a very meaty meal.

Well yeah, it was just an example of how relatively easy it is to get plenty of protein, especially for endurance athletes that are probably eating quite a bit anyway

dw300

meanredspider wrote:

phreak wrote:

I mean a simple meal of pasta with a couple of chicken breasts, maybe a bit of cheese on top, and you've got your recommended amount done in one meal.

The problem with protein though is that your body can't store it like it can fat and sugars. That's one of the reasons athletes tend to have high protein diets to ensure that protein is available when the body can use it. What it can't use then it excretes in urea. I had a professional athletic dietician put together a program for me after seeing amazing results in a friend and there was far more protein in it than I was expecting - including peanut butter before bed. I didn't use that much protein but my body always had it "on tap". I got most of what I needed from natural sources but I got heartily sick of eating endless turkey, eggs and chicken.

Your body can store protein like it stores fat and sugar. Your muscles are a store of energy and will be used as such under the right conditions. However in order to facilitate storing it, you need to be training in a way that they are getting rebuilt and supercompensating (lifting not aerobic cycling).

Eating protein is not all about building mass/strength. Making sure you get the right amount of protein throughout the day especially prior to a hard training session will minimise catabolism so you dont loose muscle mass, because you will loose power/gain peak power depending on your muscle mass. So if sprinting, TTing or track is a big part of your cycling, then get bigger legs. If endurance and tactics are, then being lighter is better.

Whey is a good quality protein with a better amino acid profile than you'll get in most meals. All proteins are not equal. It also allows you to get your protein in fast, and without consuming other calories at the same time. And its the cheapest form of protein. Great if you are training for strength/mass.

Relating to my first paragraph. Your body is smart. If you do hard training requiring protein to rebuild, and do not eat any, then it'll break down the muscles that arent being trained in order to get it. You'll end up with big legs and a small upper body, which is arguably great for a cyclist, and is why most people will tell you not to worry too much about getting extra protein.

Id say that ingesting will help you repair faster than breaking down your own stores, so that's why protein as a recovery drink is generally recommended. Drink it for the recovery, and if you need to pump out 2 kilowatts.

JayKosta

It is generally accepted that 'recovery nutrition' of a combination of protein and carbs very soon after a strenuous exercise session is beneficial to repair muscles and to replace glycogen that has been depleted. Typically, having the recovery nutrition within about 30 minutes of stopping exercise is recommended. About 20 grams of protein and 60-80 grams of carbs is a common serving size. Then later after having gotten washed, etc., have a regular meal.

IF you can provide the recovery nutrition from 'regular food' in an easy to eat and digest form, then fine.
Low fat chocolate milk is one possible method.
I use powdered whey protein and powdered Gatorade - for me it is convenient and inexpensive.
There are many commercial 'recovery drinks' available which also work, but they seem to be fairly expensive.
What is most suitable for you depends on factors such as: convenience, taste, and cost.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

meanredspider

dw300 wrote:

Your body can store protein like it stores fat and sugar.

Where does it "store" protein? It USES protein (if it needs it) building body structures (muscle, blood cells, nerves, skin etc etc) but it doesn't "store" it in anything like the same ways it does fats and sugars. Yes it will break down muscle in extremis but it didn't develop that muscle to store protein - if it did, body builders could just sit around eating turkey all day.

I also find it hard to imagine why you'd want to break down proteins used anywhere in the body. As you say, the body is clever - if it put muscle in your upper body it's because you needed muscle in your upper body for something. Robbing Peter to pay Paul only means you'll rob Paul to pay Peter later. There's absolutely no sense in going short on protein.

phreak

JayKosta wrote:

It is generally accepted that 'recovery nutrition' of a combination of protein and carbs very soon after a strenuous exercise session is beneficial to repair muscles and to replace glycogen that has been depleted. Typically, having the recovery nutrition within about 30 minutes of stopping exercise is recommended. About 20 grams of protein and 60-80 grams of carbs is a common serving size. Then later after having gotten washed, etc., have a regular meal.

IF you can provide the recovery nutrition from 'regular food' in an easy to eat and digest form, then fine.
Low fat chocolate milk is one possible method.
I use powdered whey protein and powdered Gatorade - for me it is convenient and inexpensive.
There are many commercial 'recovery drinks' available which also work, but they seem to be fairly expensive.
What is most suitable for you depends on factors such as: convenience, taste, and cost.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

From what I've read, that 'magic window' is only relevant if your next workout is within the next 12-24 hours. Any period of rest longer than that and your muscles will be replenished just fine through normal eating.

meanredspider

phreak wrote:

From what I've read, that 'magic window' is only relevant if your next workout is within the next 12-24 hours. Any period of rest longer than that and your muscles will be replenished just fine through normal eating.

Yes - I think you are right - and it's mostly to do with replenishing glycogen. Again, the body will use protein as and when it can get it and needs it but there seems to be a window (of anything up to two hours depending on who you believe) when the body will preferentially restore glycogen quickly. If you aren't exercising in the next 24 hours, there's time for the stores to recover through normal nutrition.

ETA - if you've really worked hard, of course, you may want to restore your blood sugar levels so you don't feel that chill from within when you're low.

charlie_potatoes

phreak wrote:

From what I've read, that 'magic window' is only relevant if your next workout is within the next 12-24 hours. Any period of rest longer than that and your muscles will be replenished just fine through normal eating.

Doesn't this depend on your lifestyle during the 'rest' periods? With a family and work commitments I imagine that most amateurs are not laying in bed with their feet up for 24 hours waiting for their legs to recover.

Deliberately delaying recovery seems to make no sense?

phreak

Of course, and it's up to each of us to figure out the best thing for our own circumstances. All I'm saying is that most of the fuss around the 'magic window' is marketing based, and I suspect that for many of us, there's simply no need to be buying protein shakes.

hypster

phreak wrote:

Of course, and it's up to each of us to figure out the best thing for our own circumstances. All I'm saying is that most of the fuss around the 'magic window' is marketing based, and I suspect that for many of us, there's simply no need to be buying protein shakes.

The thing is that the protein and glycogen replenishment has to come from somewhere. Whey protein and maltodextrin bought in bulk is relatively cheap so what's the difference between having a whey protein-based drink when I come in after a long ride compared to say eating a piece of chicken and a baked potato?

To turn things on it head there seems to be no point NOT having a convenient and cheap protein drink after heavy exercise and substituting some other food that I have to buy anyway.

Also, I don't see the point of delaying replenishment either. You eat when you are on the ride to prevent hunger knock and on a long ride arrive back in a depleted state. It seems reasonable to consume something relatively quickly to continue the replenishment process it seems to me.

BeaconRuth

phreak wrote:

..... and I suspect that for many of us, there's simply no need to be buying protein shakes.

This.

hypster wrote:

To turn things on it head there seems to be no point NOT having a convenient and cheap protein drink after heavy exercise and substituting some other food that I have to buy anyway.

Well, if you prefer drinking a protein shake to eating real food like chicken and tuna, fair enough.

But there's certainly no point in consuming more protein than you need and most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands.

Ruth

phreak

As Ruth said, it's partly an enjoyment of food thing, and partly a nutritional thing. I bought Go Faster Food (and the kids version too) a while back, and it has 100s of recipes that are incredibly tasty and good for you. Our freezer is stocked up with meals we've cooked and frozen, so after a workout, one often gets heated up whilst I'm in the shower, and a tasty and nutritious meal awaits once I'm out.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Go-Faster-Food- ... 0091929326

I mean we're all adults here so other folks can ultimately do what they like with both their time and their money, but that approach is one that's ticking all the boxes for me.

hypster

But there's certainly no point in consuming more protein than you need and most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands.

You might as well say that about any food type, why pick on protein? People consume more than they need of all types of food and the body deals with it in all sorts of ways. If we could be certain of consuming the optimum level of any particular nutrient in all circumstances then that would be fine. Just to assert that "most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands" just doesn't cut it I'm afraid, no matter how much of a nutritional expert you might be. You have no idea of what "most people" are doing in any particular circumstance or what their diet consists of.

As human beings we are driven by fear and the lack of something is at the forefront of our consumer society. Cycling is very much the sort of activity where a lot of people are searching for anything which might give them a performance "edge", not necessarily over the next guy but just to perform to the best of their abilities. You only have to read the majority of posts on the BikeRadar forums to see that.

phreak

hypster wrote:

But there's certainly no point in consuming more protein than you need and most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands.

... Just to assert that "most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands" just doesn't cut it I'm afraid, no matter how much of a nutritional expert you might be. You have no idea of what "most people" are doing in any particular circumstance or what their diet consists of....

As I understand things, the protein requirements for an endurance athlete are low enough that it would be really quite hard not to eat enough protein via your normal diet. Of course, that doesn't rule out people eating really badly, but given the protein requirements are fairly low AND cyclists tend to be relatively light, I would say it's probably quite safe to say that most cyclists get plenty.

Of course, protein is available on the packaging of any food you buy, so it's relatively straightforward to figure out if you're getting enough. Has to be better to know for sure rather than assume one way or the other. Multiply 1.3 by your weight in kg, then add up the protein in the food you eat and see how you get on.

BeaconRuth

hypster wrote:

BeaconRuth wrote:

But there's certainly no point in consuming more protein than you need and most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands.

You might as well say that about any food type, why pick on protein?

Erm, because this thread is about consuming extra protein over and above a normal diet. If it had been about consuming excess fat or excess carbs I might have said the same thing.

People consume more than they need of all types of food and the body deals with it in all sorts of ways.

Indeed, but it doesn't mean that overeating is a good thing.

If we could be certain of consuming the optimum level of any particular nutrient in all circumstances then that would be fine.

We're only discussing protein here and it's really not difficult to know how much protein you need, to track that intake daily - or at least get an idea of roughly whether you are consuming enough daily. There's no need to consume extra in a state of panic "just in case".

Anyway, there are small amounts of protein in food items which we don't typically think of as being protein-rich. I've just pulled out a day at random from when I kept a food diary and on that day I got more than 20% of my protein requirement from fruit and veg (incl potatoes).

Just to assert that "most people who eat a normal healthy diet will consume plenty of protein for endurance cycling demands" just doesn't cut it I'm afraid, no matter how much of a nutritional expert you might be. You have no idea of what "most people" are doing in any particular circumstance or what their diet consists of.

No, which is why I was deliberately using very general terms. What I have said doesn't preclude someone finding that on closer inspection their diet does not contain enough protein. I think, therefore, that my statement "cuts it".

As human beings we are driven by fear and the lack of something is at the forefront of our consumer society. Cycling is very much the sort of activity where a lot of people are searching for anything which might give them a performance "edge"

Agreed - which is why I'm suggesting that taking extra protein in addition to a normal healthy diet is probably a fruitless place to search for an extra performance "edge".

Ruth

charlie_potatoes

BeaconRuth wrote:

Agreed - which is why I'm suggesting that taking extra protein in addition to a normal healthy diet is probably a fruitless place to search for an extra performance "edge".

Ruth

Nice pun

JayKosta

BeaconRuth wrote:

[
...
Agreed - which is why I'm suggesting that taking extra protein in addition to a normal healthy diet is probably a fruitless place to search for an extra performance "edge".

Ruth

=======================================
But the real question is whether a specific individual's actual diet (regardless of it being 'normal and healthy') provides a suitable amount of protein (and other nutrients) to allow the person to get the most benefit from an exercise session, and whether recovery is quick enough to not delay another exercise session.
Yes of course - IF the person already has a diet that satisfies those requirements, then consuming additional nutrients would provide little benefit.

I think that many of us struggle to find a diet and recovery process that allows -
1) feeling strong and energetic at the start of an exercise session
2) being able to continue the session at the desired intensity for the desired duration
3) being able to quickly recover and repeat the cycle.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

sloppyschleckonds

Caffeine will give you an extra 5 to 10 watts, if you don't have it ordinarily in your diet

imposter2.0

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of people on here who drink protein shakes - or who take protein supplements - don't actually need them.

dw300

Imposter wrote:

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of people on here who drink protein shakes - or who take protein supplements - don't actually need them.

If they only cycle you're probably right.

JayKosta

Imposter wrote:

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of people on here who drink protein shakes - or who take protein supplements - don't actually need them.

===========================
In my case, I noticed that after I started using a protein 'recovery drink' after exercise that there is a definite increase in the rate of growth of my fingernails (which are mostly protein based).
I doubt that I really 'need' the protein recovery drink, because I had been in fine health for years without it.
I can't make any quantitative judgements about other physical changes that might be due to the protein drink, but the change in my fingernails has convinced me that the drink is doing something beneficial, and I hope that it isn't limited to fingernail growth...

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

imposter2.0

JayKosta wrote:

but the change in my fingernails has convinced me that the drink is doing something beneficial, and I hope that it isn't limited to fingernail growth...

That's one hell of a supposition, to be fair. Even the 'fingernail' evidence is circumstantial, at best...

meanredspider

Fingernail growth is affected (increased) by sunlight. I don't know the reason (vitamin D?)

CleeRider

Thanks for all the points raised since I posted my question.
In the past 7 days I've educated myself and started eating properly and I have no need for whey protein. I'm getting around 100g of protein daily. Just not sure if I'll get sick of chicken and eggs though

meanredspider

Tuna is a great source of protein. Venison and turkey are also good alternatives.