Malaysian Airlines

mamba80

Will they go the same way as PanAm?
given recent history, you d have thought they might avoid conflict zones esp those with modern SA missile systems and flying at an altitude only just above the minimum required.

An absolute terrible tragedy but one that I suspect will go unpunished but then again, did the USA get their just deserts for the shooting down an Iranian airliner in 1988, killing 290 inc 66 children???

arran77

I was listening to an aviation security expert on the radio the other morning who was saying that it was thought that in that part of the world such surface to air weapons were not available to those fighting so it was still safe for commercial airliners to be flying at around 31 to 33 thousand feet despite the fact it was an active war zone.

Obviously in light of recent events airlines will now not fly through that air space.

As far as anyone getting their 'just desserts' is concerned I really don't think that's a helpful or productive outcome from this act of terrorism but sadly I suspect there will be repercussions.

mamba80

I think the BUK SA system was well known to be in that area, both by the Soviet backed rebels and the Ukrainian forces, indeed my brother, flying back from saudia a few weeks ago, choose an airline that did not go nr the Ukraine, several airlines had already made that decision.

The rebels also had form for shooting down hi altitude aircraft in recent months.

any civilised nation (and the individuals concerned) that shoots down a civilian airliner either by accident or design, should be held to account (is that a better phrase?) the yanks didn't and in this case, the soviets wont either, they will have cleared away any evidence by now.

TBH I don't understand your tone, this is a terrible avoidable tragedy, and just desserts is exactly what Putin should get.

arran77

Sorry if there appears to be a tone to my post, there is no intention of that.

By saying that people getting their just desserts is not helpful or productive I was referring to the fact that it will no doubt result in more loss of life, something which there is far to much of in the world for needless reasons.

pblakeney

I do not know exactly what happened so I am not going to judge one side against the other.

But how on earth can you connect Ukrainians/Russians/rebels shooting down a Malaysian flight from Amsterdam to KL with the U.S.A.?
Poor show.

Coula1

Possibly because the USA shot down a civilian plane full of innocent people just like what has happened in the Ukraine, no?

zanelad

PBlakeney wrote:

I do not know exactly what happened so I am not going to judge one side against the other.

But how on earth can you connect Ukrainians/Russians/rebels shooting down a Malaysian flight from Amsterdam to KL with the U.S.A.?
Poor show.

I think that the OP was commenting that the USA did not suffer (as far as I recall) any sanctions when it blew a civilian airliner out of the sky. Not linking the USA to this event.

arran77

PBlakeney wrote:

I do not know exactly what happened so I am not going to judge one side against the other.

But how on earth can you connect Ukrainians/Russians/rebels shooting down a Malaysian flight from Amsterdam to KL with the U.S.A.?
Poor show.

It was a slightly misleading post as there have been other cases of civilian airliners being shot down, why not mention the Soviets?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

pblakeney

Zanelad wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I do not know exactly what happened so I am not going to judge one side against the other.

But how on earth can you connect Ukrainians/Russians/rebels shooting down a Malaysian flight from Amsterdam to KL with the U.S.A.?
Poor show.

I think that the OP was commenting that the USA did not suffer (as far as I recall) any sanctions when it blew a civilian airliner out of the sky. Not linking the USA to this event.

I am sorry but this is most definitely a link -

mamba80 wrote:

An absolute terrible tragedy but one that I suspect will go unpunished but then again, did the USA get their just deserts for the shooting down an Iranian airliner in 1988, killing 290 inc 66 children???

No amount of wrongs will ever make a right and there is no connection to this event. It is a subject that requires very close inspection but this route is a diversion that is not required.
If is it not a link, then why raise the subject? As said above, it is not the first, nor I fear the last.

mamba80

the reason I did raise the 1988 airline incident, is that Obama is full of righteous indignation over this this latest outrage BUT when they - USA - did a similar thing...absolutely nothing happened, well many years later, they did provide some sort of compensation to the Iranians.
Unless, somehow the international community can bring to justice countries that do this sort of thing, then it will continue, it may not happen very often (thank God) but these incidents are not caused by some fanatical group, they can only be done by 1st world SA systems.
No doubt Malaysian AL will go to the wall, already they ve promised full refunds across the board, on any flight ... many people will go out of their way to avoid flying with them.

imposter2.0

mamba80 wrote:

the reason I did raise the 1988 airline incident, is that Obama is full of righteous indignation over this this latest outrage BUT when they - USA - did a similar thing...absolutely nothing happened, well many years later, they did provide some sort of compensation to the Iranians.
Unless, somehow the international community can bring to justice countries that do this sort of thing, then it will continue, it may not happen very often (thank God) but these incidents are not caused by some fanatical group, they can only be done by 1st world SA systems.
No doubt Malaysian AL will go to the wall, already they ve promised full refunds across the board, on any flight ... many people will go out of their way to avoid flying with them.

I guess one of the main similarities between these two events is that they were both committed by gung-ho, macho assholes. The commander of the USS Vincennes was reckoned to be one such individual, and whoever issued the command to the Buk operator was almost certainly another...

pblakeney

mamba80 wrote:

the reason I did raise the 1988 airline incident, is that Obama is full of righteous indignation over this this latest outrage BUT when they - USA - did a similar thing...absolutely nothing happened, well many years later, they did provide some sort of compensation to the Iranians.

I actually agree with what I think you are trying to say, I just think that it is futile.
Over the years I have learned that humans never learn. They just move on, forget, and repeat.
Our own Government's hands are far from clean when it comes to indignation.

tangled_metal

There was a news bulletin that looked at other war zones that are still flown over. One was interesting in that the altitude of the SA system known to be in the area was 2000ft higher than the lower flight limit for civilian aircraft. An airline could fly over the zone and be within range of SA missiles. Can't remember which but think it was shown on BBC news.
MA will survive. It is still a big national airline. Major profit warning to shareholders but a few years down the line it'll be used the same as before their recent incidents. Ppl have short memories when a cheaper ticket option comes up.
The site is already ruined for investigators by now I reckon. Sanitized? Not just that but corrupted by uncontrolled access. The thug in control of the area when the media got there was a former delivery driver with a gun who definitely seemed to relish bossing ppl around. The legacy of east and west's role in Ukraine.
There's a street in Netherlands which has two families from opposite sides of the same road who independently traveled for different reasons on the same flight. It's stories of the victims that's getting out that's getting to me. Whoever's done this won't get sanction but those victims' stories should get out more prominently. Not intruding but put faces to the disaster.

Majestic 12

A great tragedy indeed, and thoughts with all those affected.
It will no doubt have an impact on MAS as the original OP has indicated, though I do not think it will go the way of Pan Am.
As stated there have been a number of Airliners shot down with very little consequence to those who perpetrated the crime/atrocity. If it is proven that militants backed/supported by the Kremlin were the guilty party, there is very little that the rest of the world can do other than heap more sanctions on Russia. These will in time be lifted when the world has moved on.

tangled_metal

It is certain to have been Russian made missiles as most of the countries in that neck of the woods end up buying from Russia. All sides have them but reckon the Ukrainian armed forces know how to distinguish civilian and military aircraft. Also the rebels don't have aircraft of their own so no need to have SA firing off in the area. If they even tried targeting Russian aircraft they'd lose their kit straight away. Wouldn't attempt it. The rebels shot down a transport plane and a SU-25 fighter. Not latest tech IIRC. I seriously doubt the rebels on their own would have a clue what they were firing on. If they had Russian advisors there then I'd reckon they'd know it was civilian. At least that's the gist of all the stuff I've read about it all.
I reckon the western agencies know a lot of what has happened. NSA, GCHQ and other nations agencies will have heard plenty of chatter from there.
Malaysian airlines will survive. Didn't Pan Am make strategic mistakes that messed them up.

mr_goo

Just been reading the latest news on the EU Foreign Ministers meeting that is being held today. It appears to me nothing more than idle threats and all they are prepared to do is implement the sanctions already announced, but quicker. I am sure Vlad will be crying into his morning porridge over that one.

arran77

Mr Goo wrote:

Just been reading the latest news on the EU Foreign Ministers meeting that is being held today. It appears to me nothing more than idle threats and all they are prepared to do is implement the sanctions already announced, but quicker. I am sure Vlad will be crying into his morning porridge over that one.

Spot on. They need to come down on this hard but everyone, Putin included, knows they won't :roll:

Welcome back by the way Goo, I thought you'd abandoned us

ballysmate

Yes, welcome back Mr Goo

thegreatdivide

Mr Goo wrote:

Just been reading the latest news on the EU Foreign Ministers meeting that is being held today. It appears to me nothing more than idle threats and all they are prepared to do is implement the sanctions already announced, but quicker. I am sure Vlad will be crying into his morning porridge over that one.

Sanctions = a drop in the Rouble = pressure from the money men behind Putin. What else can they do – invade?

florerider

we could not buy all their gas and uranium and see how they like it.

which will be ok as along as they don't send over any of their cold air next winter.

as Vlad says, this will hurt you more than it will hurt me - so get used to it.

bdu98252

It is a bit pointless harking back to airliners shot down by Russian and USA institutions. Neither Putin or Obama were in charge at the time of the two previously quoted incidents and I doubt very much if they were anywhere in the decision making tree either. Its a bit like blaming an anti Iraq campaigner who marched on London for the sins of Tony Blair's invasion of Iraq with old cowboy Bush.

pblakeney

bdu98252 wrote:

It is a bit pointless harking back to airliners shot down by Russian and USA institutions. Neither Putin or Obama were in charge at the time of the two previously quoted incidents and I doubt very much if they were anywhere in the decision making tree either. Its a bit like blaming an anti Iraq campaigner who marched on London for the sins of Tony Blair's invasion of Iraq with old cowboy Bush.

Speaking of which, where is the Middle East Peace Envoy in theses troubled times?

In London. Must be serious business then.

thegreatdivide

florerider wrote:

we could not buy all their gas

Erm, no we couldn't.

Giraffoto

Why does this get so much more of a reaction than when a similar number of civilians are indiscriminately killed on the ground? That's happening all over the world, and is almost ignored - so why is there so much more of an emotional response when it's a civilian airliner involved?

bdu98252

Giraffoto wrote:

Why does this get so much more of a reaction than when a similar number of civilians are indiscriminately killed on the ground? That's happening all over the world, and is almost ignored - so why is there so much more of an emotional response when it's a civilian airliner involved?

The cynic would say it is because rich or aspirational type fly whereas people on the ground getting the shit bombed out of them are not generally rich or aspirational. When Bernie Madoff was stealing rich people money he got more coverage than when Mavis down the road got her giro nicked for the 2nd time in a month on the way home from the post office. Mavis is a fictional character in this example:)

tangled_metal

I think it's more a case that those killed on the ground mostly die in small groups at one time. Always harder to ignore the larger death events like 9/11, 7/7, both MAS incidents and the attack in Kenyan mall. Sorry, that last one disproves the rule as it was only the centre of the news for a week. Wonder why that got written off as old news so quickly?

arran77

Tangled Metal wrote:

I think it's more a case that those killed on the ground mostly die in small groups at one time. Always harder to ignore the larger death events like 9/11, 7/7, both MAS incidents and the attack in Kenyan mall. Sorry, that last one disproves the rule as it was only the centre of the news for a week. Wonder why that got written off as old news so quickly?

I think it's also to do with the unexpected nature of 'major' events such as 9/11, 7/7 and now both of the MAS incidents.

When you have on going conflicts such as that in Gazza you expect there to be loss of life which will inevitably include innocent civilians but these other events come totally out of the blue and the human mind does not have time to prepare itself, this comes as a shock and is harder to accept.

pblakeney

arran77 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

I think it's more a case that those killed on the ground mostly die in small groups at one time. Always harder to ignore the larger death events like 9/11, 7/7, both MAS incidents and the attack in Kenyan mall. Sorry, that last one disproves the rule as it was only the centre of the news for a week. Wonder why that got written off as old news so quickly?

I think it's also to do with the unexpected nature of 'major' events such as 9/11, 7/7 and now both of the MAS incidents.

When you have on going conflicts such as that in Gazza you expect there to be loss of life which will inevitably include innocent civilians but these other events come totally out of the blue and the human mind does not have time to prepare itself, this comes as a shock and is harder to accept.

Along with the fact that you could be on the next plane whereas it is unlikely that you will be in a troubled area.

tangled_metal

Still statistically a very safe mode of transport apparently.

arran77

Flightradar24 is quite interesting now, there's a big old black hole in the air space over the Ukraine now......

http://www.flightradar24.com/45.17,36.13/4

rick_chasey

bdu98252 wrote:

Giraffoto wrote:

Why does this get so much more of a reaction than when a similar number of civilians are indiscriminately killed on the ground? That's happening all over the world, and is almost ignored - so why is there so much more of an emotional response when it's a civilian airliner involved?

The cynic would say it is because rich or aspirational type fly whereas people on the ground getting the shoot bombed out of them are not generally rich or aspirational. When Bernie Madoff was stealing rich people money he got more coverage than when Mavis down the road got her giro nicked for the 2nd time in a month on the way home from the post office. Mavis is a fictional character in this example:)

Not so much rich as Western European.

It's fairly normal in any conflict for people who live in said conflict area to be caught up in it.

People from the Netherlands en route to a holiday are not typical collateral.

Let me put it another way. Me here in Brtain knew two people who died on the plane. I don't know anyone who has died in the war on the ground.