Sagan: Great or underachieving?

tailwindhome

Sometimes when people make things look easy, they don't get credit for the achievement

Kid's got his 3rd Green Jersey nailed on before the first rest day.

mroli

He is great. And somewhat unbelievably is probably also underachieving as well! (Agreeing with Onyourright!)

joelsim

I think to say that Sagan is underachieving is nonsense. To finish top 5 in the first 7 stages is incredible.

tom3

I don't think he's underachieving. However, I'd like for him to specialise in one of his strengths to see how far he could take it.

mroli

Joelsim wrote:

I think to say that Sagan is underachieving is nonsense. To finish top 5 in the first 7 stages is incredible.

If you just look at his results, I agree it sounds ludicrous. But it wouldn't have surprised anyone if he had won at least 2 of those stages (2 and 7) and he probably "should" have done. He is not quite the "full" package that everyone thinks and hopes he will be....

argyllflyer

Joelsim wrote:

I think to say that Sagan is underachieving is nonsense. To finish top 5 in the first 7 stages is incredible.

They were all stages that played to his considerable strengths though. For all his physical talent, Sagan lacks 'end product' at times. Daniel Friebe described him (accurately I'd say) this week on the Cycling Podcast as a great bike rider but not a great bike racer... yet.

Old_Timer

With what hes accomplished to date I couldn't say he is underachieving. Clearly a talented young man with more potential available. If he gets on a solid pro team with support riders that can work with him, I think there are several GT wins in him, and hopefully many monuments and classics, also. JMHO.

mike6

Probably not simply him learning from errors, but perhaps the peloton have sussed Sagan out. It's often easier to win when you are an unknown, once the other guys know you, and how you ride, they can mark you out of it. Also as he matures he can work out what he is for, at the moment I think he is a bit confused as to what his speciality is.

tailwindhome

Stat on Cannondale's FB page

Sagan has now rode 55 Tour stages - 50 of these in the Green Jersey

Lanterne_Rogue

The more Sagan comes close but not close enough, the more chilled out about him I become - I really disliked his attitude when he was seemingly winning everything, but now he's a green jersey specialist who keeps making tactical errors and coming second I'm much more happy. It's a hell of a talent to keep hoovering up the points - I just hope he makes his own peace with it.

RichN95.

The more I see of Sagan, the more I like him.

Having originally seen him in the Tour Down Under, I developed an impression of him as another dour, tactiturn Eastern European in the Menchov mould. But he's shown to be nothing like that.

He's still a little childlike in some things he does (bum pinching) but he always comes across well in interviews (despite English being his third language).

I think he's wonderful. I'd like him to have competition for the Green Jersey from a proper sprinter (would have been Cav), but every time I see Ned Boulting interview after he's come second I just say forget the questions Ned, give him a hug.

powerbookboy

Isn't it just a case of "Jack of all, master of none"? Put a mountain bike stage in - then he'll get his win.

frenchfighter

That stat is pretty unreal. In this day of specialists and super high level, to maintain the jersey 50/55 shows supreme talent.

morstar

I think he's brilliant to watch but stage 12 finish was telling. About a km to go and Kristoff pushed in and took the wheel that Sagan was on. The result suggests it was the right wheel to have. Is he too much of a pushover in the argy bargy of the last few km's?

adr82

morstar wrote:

I think he's brilliant to watch but stage 12 finish was telling. About a km to go and Kristoff pushed in and took the wheel that Sagan was on. The result suggests it was the right wheel to have. Is he too much of a pushover in the argy bargy of the last few km's?

I don't think you can argue losing a wheel once makes you bad at bunch sprints. It happens to every sprinter. As a counterexample, there was an overhead shot from one of the earlier stage finishes that showed him moving himself up through the bunch and confidently pushing his way through some extremely narrow gaps to stay on the wheel he wanted.

morstar

adr82 wrote:

morstar wrote:

I think he's brilliant to watch but stage 12 finish was telling. About a km to go and Kristoff pushed in and took the wheel that Sagan was on. The result suggests it was the right wheel to have. Is he too much of a pushover in the argy bargy of the last few km's?

I don't think you can argue losing a wheel once makes you bad at bunch sprints. It happens to every sprinter. As a counterexample, there was an overhead shot from one of the earlier stage finishes that showed him moving himself up through the bunch and confidently pushing his way through some extremely narrow gaps to stay on the wheel he wanted.

Granted, and yes, his bike handling is what has made me really come round to his talents. I love to see him work his magic. But, my point still stands, he gave up the wheel far too easily. It did make me wonder if that is part of his problem, being muscled out of the best positions.
Heck, I'm guessing and hypothesizing but it is a credible possibility.
Maybe he's not too bothered because he thinks he can compensate with bike handling. It's a stark contrast to Cav who won't give up a wheel or a gap that sometimes he has no right to go for.

adr82

morstar wrote:

adr82 wrote:

morstar wrote:

I think he's brilliant to watch but stage 12 finish was telling. About a km to go and Kristoff pushed in and took the wheel that Sagan was on. The result suggests it was the right wheel to have. Is he too much of a pushover in the argy bargy of the last few km's?

I don't think you can argue losing a wheel once makes you bad at bunch sprints. It happens to every sprinter. As a counterexample, there was an overhead shot from one of the earlier stage finishes that showed him moving himself up through the bunch and confidently pushing his way through some extremely narrow gaps to stay on the wheel he wanted.

Granted, and yes, his bike handling is what has made me really come round to his talents. I love to see him work his magic. But, my point still stands, he gave up the wheel far too easily. It did make me wonder if that is part of his problem, being muscled out of the best positions.
Heck, I'm guessing and hypothesizing but it is a credible possibility.
Maybe he's not too bothered because he thinks he can compensate with bike handling. It's a stark contrast to Cav who won't give up a wheel or a gap that sometimes he has no right to go for.

It's a possibility, but what I was trying to say is that one instance of him apparently giving up a wheel without a fight isn't much to base that hypothesis on. If he starts making a habit of losing sprints because people muscle him off the wheel he wants then that'd be different.

rick_chasey

He'll start winning the bigger races when he gets a stronger team.

Eventually he'll go through the same process Cancellara went through and learn how to win on his own as well

tailwindhome

frenchfighter wrote:

That stat is pretty unreal. In this day of specialists and super high level, to maintain the jersey 50/55 shows supreme talent.

1 of the 5 non green jersey days was a white jersey day.
3 of the 5 were day1 with no jersey to wear.

ugo.santalucia

I think Sagan needs to race in a better team... being the only winning card at Cannondale, he is expected to win everywhere. He should be in a team where his plans for the season are clear and should concentrate on being 100% for the spring classics and maybe again for the worlds... trying to be at 90% all the time is clearly not paying dividends.
He has won enough green jerseys to stop caring about the Tour

tailwindhome

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think Sagan needs to race in a better team... being the only winning card at Cannondale, he is expected to win everywhere.

Rich has a chart of some sort

TheHound

I love Sagan, I've a bit of a man crush on him since he pinched that podium girl's arse.

2 points though.

1. He's still very young.
2. He's a marked man.

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think Sagan needs to race in a better team... being the only winning card at Cannondale, he is expected to win everywhere.

Rich has a chart of some sort