8 speed to 10 speed?

Manc33

Is it OK to use:
8-speed front mech
8-speed rear mech
8-speed chainrings

Combined with:
10-speed shifters
10-speed chain
10-speed cassette

Being on 8-speed I don't know what I "need" to make it 10-speed but it would appear only those three items?

Sheldon Brown said on his site Shimano split everything up to make you buy it, I mean why would a front mech say "7 speed" and "8 speed" on! Same chain!

If I can get away with it by just buying the above three items I'd definitely upgrade it.

You don't know how long it took me to work out how to post again. :oops: Its that little logo with the three dashes top left... clicking "Login" sends you back to the index page, everything does.

njee20

You'll need a rear mech, cable pull is different. Your front shifting may not be amazing with 8 speed rings/mech, but it'll work.

Chunkers1980

If you're using the same front mech then you only need a rear shifter. You also need a new rear mech.

It may work with the 8 spd rings and front mech (everything else needs to be 10 specific) - but it'll not work optimally

poah

junk the front mech and got 1x10

Chunkers1980

Great advice. He may need and use his full range of gears and then what would happen to his chain retention? Junk the front shifter may have been better advice, but still bad advice.

The Rookie

9 speed is more cost effective as you can use the rear mech....

Given some 8 speed front mechs get picky trying to shift 9 speed chains, I can imagine it being a real PITA with a 10 speed chain

cooldad

Not sure it's really an upgrade.
IMO 8 speed was the best - less pernickety and still a decent range.

Manc33

Cheers guys.

Its not that I don't like 8 speed but the shifters I am using (XTR M951) are from 1995 and just don't cut it anymore.

There's no snappiness to the shifting and its hard to shift up only one sprocket without accidentally pushing it too far.

Setup so the cable is tighter and it does always shift... no chance of it being smooth downshifting. Always have that "tinkling" noise and have to wind the cable in slightly, then you're back to not upshifting well (or upshifting "up two then down one" to upshift one).

Now I know adding a 9-speed rear mech is vital to a 10-speed upgrade, it makes going to 9 speed more attractive because it always was cheaper anyway and then there's the front mech being 8-speed changing gear on a 10-speed chain.

I was just thinking about the future and how if I get XTR 9 speed shifters they are going to be a lot older than 10 speed ones. Then also how 9-speed will become outdated faster than 10 speed is going to but I mean really... are we going to have like 16 sprockets in about 15 years? I has to stop somewhere.

Manc33

From what I can tell:

M951 (8-Speed) = 1995
M970 (9-Speed) = 2006?
M980 (10-Speed) = 2011

Everything I am buying is going to be used.

I really don't want 8 year old shifters. :P

Chunkers1980

Surely age has nothing to do with it. If they work they work.

With shifters, the internals of the XTR have always been better than the cheaper versions.

10spd is already out of date. XTR goes 11spd from around August when you should be able to get your hands on it.

njee20

Manc33 wrote:

From what I can tell:

M950 (8-Speed) = 1996
M952 (9-speed) = 1999
M960 (9-speed) = 2003
M970 (9-Speed) = 2007
M980 (10-Speed) = 2011
M9000 (11-speed) = 2015 MY

FTFY, as said, M9000 is due next month. I'd not 'upgrade' to 9, gives you a couple of teeth on the cassette, 10 speed gives a whole extra gear, sort of, if you know what I mean. Cost difference is only a rear mech.

Bigger question is is it worth upgrading a bike which has an 8 speed groupset? Guessing it's either cheap or old. Groupset would be a way down my list of upgrade priorities.

rockmonkeysc

Availability of quality 9 speed components is not as good as it was. I think Shimano now only make 9 speed in Deore and lower group sets.

The Rookie

I just bought a brand new Ultegra 9sp cassette for my commuter, that's the equivalent of 8sp in MTB as most road bikes are now 11, plenty of stuff can still be had.

njee20

Sort of, Ultegra went 10 speed in 2005, whilst LX/XT/XTR all went 9 speed in 1999, but I know what you mean.

Manc33

The bike was originally a Triban 3 (the red one), but I ended up getting a Holdsworth Stelvio (£350 with forks) and lighter wheels (£190).

I was proud because that frameset and wheelset combined cost £540 and weigh......... 3KG. I was proud although it was solely because of members here I "found" those deals. 8)

So what else is on the bike... everything from the Triban 3 except the headset because it was different and the carbon frame has a carbon band mount on the front mech, thats about it, oh and it needed a fatter seat tube.

It has flat bars on though, but is a road bike (is it?) :oops: It has a Brooks saddle and Marathon Plus tyres, those two items bog it down dramatically, with GP4000S tyres on and that carbon knockoff saddle I got... the bike would be 3lbs lighter and sit at about 18lb. I have thought about it many times but I prefer comfort and not getting pu*ct*res.

I guess the thing most likely to work (from 8-speed) on 10-speed is the chainrings? I mean those will definitely work with a 10-speed chain? If I have to buy a 10-speed front mech they aren't expensive. Thing is I have that "universal" thing on now the "Tiagra R443" and a MTB front mech (say the XT 10-speed triple) might not play well with the chainrings because on a road frame they are 5mm closer to the frame. Well, that doesn't alter the actual angle I guess, or the fact that an XT front mech can handle what's on it (28-39-50). Might be limited because it must be a braze on as well.

njee20

It has flat bars on though, but is a road bike (is it?)

Yes, completely. Which means you can ignore everything that's been said, as most of the people on this forum couldn't find their way round a road bike if they tried!

Chainrings will be fine, the shift may not be perfect, it'll work, as said. Front mech will also be ok.

You don't need a new rear mech to go 10 speed on the road, but you'll need flat bar road 10 speed shifters, the Shimano R770 is about the only choice unless you go friction with Paul's adapters or similar, which is all a bit convoluted. Or you need to change to MTB shifters and mech, but the front mech cable pull is slightly different, so that'll cause new problems, I'd not do that.

Manc33

njee20 wrote:

It has flat bars on though, but is a road bike (is it?)

Yes, completely. Which means you can ignore everything that's been said, as most of the people on this forum couldn't find their way round a road bike if they tried!

Chainrings will be fine, the shift may not be perfect, it'll work, as said. Front mech will also be ok.

You don't need a new rear mech to go 10 speed on the road, but you'll need flat bar road 10 speed shifters, the Shimano R770 is about the only choice unless you go friction with Paul's adapters or similar, which is all a bit convoluted. Or you need to change to MTB shifters and mech, but the front mech cable pull is slightly different, so that'll cause new problems, I'd not do that.

I remember a while back when I tried combining my XTR shifters with the road "Sora" front mech and the cable changed gear fine, but was too stiff. Road front mechs have a shorter swingarm.

Thats why it has a Tiagra on, its a "flat bar" front mech, apparently. It appears to have a swingarm about in the middle of a road mech and MTB mech. :roll:

Both my shifters are pretty cruddy, front too. You have to have loads of slack on the cable and give it a big shove, for it to all run smooth. Otherwise you're changing up to the big ring from granny ring. It has to be right because its the Tiagra. I mean its giving symptoms of wrong cable pull but I think the shifters are just too old.

Surely the tech just wasn't as good in 1995 as it is now regardless, I mean if you get a 1995 "New old stock" one? I mean there's the fact it is "old tech" (hence worse shifting?) combined with the fact that they were probably used for 10,000+ miles before I started using them. There's no crispness at all to the upshift.

Merry Crispness lol.

njee20

What shifters have you got? Presumably you've got the R440 front mech if it's Tiagra? Which is actually 9 speed. AFAIK they don't do an 8 speed flat bar front mech.

If you're using MTB shifters with a road mech you're liable to get too much throw. They won't be stiff, that's bad cable runs or crappy cables. You can't tell from the geometry of the mech, some have much longer arms than others, doesn't specifically make them road/MTB/flat bar.

Surely the tech just wasn't as good in 1995 as it is now regardless, I mean if you get a 1995 "New old stock" one? I mean there's the fact it is "old tech" (hence worse shifting?) combined with the fact that they were probably used for 10,000+ miles before I started using them. There's no crispness at all to the upshift.

I've no idea what you're talking about. What's from 1995? Your groupset? If so it's not a flat bar one, they didn't exist then, it's a recent thing.

What are you actually trying to achieve? I'd not bother changing to 10 speed on the road for the sake of it. Unlike with MTB stuff the cassettes haven't really got wider, they've filled in a gaps for a similar range. You can get 11-28 8 speed cassettes.

Why have you been looking at MTB groupsets? That's not really gonna work with what you've got. If you want a bike to hang XTR on then an old road bike you've converted to flat bars isn't really the right choice.

Manc33

njee20 wrote:

What shifters have you got? Presumably you've got the R440 front mech if it's Tiagra? Which is actually 9 speed. AFAIK they don't do an 8 speed flat bar front mech.

Just looked on the back plate and its the "FD-R443". Maybe there is no such thing as an 8-speed version, but mine has a sticker on that says 8-speed and was sold as an 8-speed. Maybe it is 9-speed, but if it is, how come it can take an 8-speed chain? If that is the case (8-speed chain on 9-speed front mech) no bloody wonder I get chain rub on "middle > biggest" :shock: Thats why I have the cable loose.

njee20 wrote:

I've no idea what you're talking about. What's from 1995? Your groupset? If so it's not a flat bar one, they didn't exist then, it's a recent thing.

The current 8-speed shifters are from 1995 (XTR M951).

Nothing else on the bike is anywhere near that old lol.

njee20 wrote:

What are you actually trying to achieve? I'd not bother changing to 10 speed on the road for the sake of it. Unlike with MTB stuff the cassettes haven't really got wider, they've filled in a gaps for a similar range. You can get 11-28 8 speed cassettes.

Thats whats on now (long story about 13T jockey wheels and 10T were needed, could have gone back to a 11-32T but had bought the 11-28T by that point so kept it on).

It has a huge gear range!

Lowest gear: 28T inner chainring and 28T sprocket
Highest gear: 50T outer chainring and 11T sprocket

It would be nice to have 2 extra sprockets just to take the jumps out of the ratios a bit. Running an MTB cassette on the road on 700c tyres @ 115PSI it can be hard finding a good gear.

njee20 wrote:

Why have you been looking at MTB groupsets? That's not really gonna work with what you've got. If you want a bike to hang XTR on then an old road bike you've converted to flat bars isn't really the right choice.

The only thing I want XTR is the M980 trigger shifters. The only thing XTR on it now is those 8-speed shifters.

What about that fancy cable housing with teflon and all that, a gimmick?

I don't exactly have an "orthodox" drivetrain lol. Its got a road chainset on with MTB cassette.

Its sloppy going into the 11T sprocket as well, it goes into it on the middle chainring (pointless, I'd be on the outer by then) and it won't go into that gear on the biggest chainring (but thats about its limit, you're going like 40 MPH then lol - on a flat bar bike).

Reading the BikeRadar review of that M980 groupset it did say the gear changes on those two smallest sprockets was improved over the 9-speed one where it occasionally "hesitates".

"...combined with the rear derailleur's longer and more linear return spring, it still makes for a notably snappier and less vague feel overall plus better performance on bikes that run full housing. This is especially true when you move the chain into the outermost cogs where M970 could sometimes hesitate."

EDIT: Those M951 shifters are from 1998, not 1995...
http://mombat.org/Shimano.htm#1998

9-speed came out the next year... then its a long time before 10-speed XTR... that website only goes up to 2005 and doesn't show the M980. To me that means get it. :P

Its not that it "has to be XTR" its just that I want good shifters, don't care what else is XTR and if it makes you happy I can just stick some black electrical tape over the logo. :P Just kidding.

njee20

Right... Dealing with the salient points and ignoring the shit.

The only thing I want XTR is the M980 trigger shifters. The only thing XTR on it now is those 8-speed shifters.

As you have a road bike, that's a poor choice of shifter. You could get them, you'll need a mountain bike rear mech, and the shifting on the front will be poor, unless you buy a mountain bike front mech. As you say you're using road chainrings that'll still be pretty crap though as the rings won't match.

EDIT: Those M951 shifters are from 1998, not 1995...
http://mombat.org/Shimano.htm#1998

Same, they don't change every year.

9-speed came out the next year... then its a long time before 10-speed XTR... that website only goes up to 2005 and doesn't show the M980. To me that means get it.

As said previously, it came out in 2011, but why does that mean you should get it? It's not suitable for your bike.

If you really want to go 10 speed go for the SL-R770 shifters (Ultegra/XT level), a cassette in your choice of ratios and a suitable chain.

MTB shifters are over complicating things, no need on a road bike. The R770s will work better and cost you far less. Put the money saved into something that will actually make a real difference.

Manc33

I have to have a MTB cassette on or I wouldn't get up many hills. :P Been there, tried that.

It (Triban 3) had a 30-39-50 triple with a 11-25T cassette at first. The lowest gear (1.2 turns) was far too high for me to get up longer hills, so I ended up putting a 11-32T on the back, the extra links in the chain needed... and used it that way for ages.

Then I wanted an even lower low gear so I swapped the 30T inner for a 28T. Still can't get up this particular hill near me but its slightly easier with the 28T inner. The difference at the front is the max from 28T-50T but it changes fine.

I don't know how people manage on 34-50 or 39-50 chainsets. They obviously have about twice the energy I must have. :shock:

The tiers of cyclists go like this:

- Elite level (average say 20-25 MPH)
- Intermediate level (average say 16-19 MPH)
- Beginner (average say 13-15 MPH)
- Twelve year old kids
- Me

I must be putting out the wattage of an 8 year old child or something like that.

cooldad

My road bike has 42/52 up front. And I am old and puny.

Just saying.

njee20

53/39 here.

No one said you had to change your cassette. Just don't get MTB shifters. They're not wholly compatible. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

If you want a 10 speed 11-32, get one... But get the R770 shifters, not M980s.

Manc33

cooldad wrote:

My road bike has 42/52 up front. And I am old and puny.

Just saying.

I remember riding a road bike years ago with only 2 chainrings, it is bliss compared to a triple, I have to admit.

njee20 wrote:

53/39 here.

No one said you had to change your cassette. Just don't get MTB shifters. They're not wholly compatible. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

If you want a 10 speed 11-32, get one... But get the R770 shifters, not M980s.

On the rear shifter/mech, it shouldn't matter that its an M980 shifter.

With the Tiagra R443 on at the front though why isn't a left MTB shifter suitable? The cable pull on the FD is meant for "flat bar" shifters which I thought was secret commuter enthusiasts code for MTB shifters? They just don't want to call it "MTB" and make people buying commuter bikes get confused.

One known known is a MTB front mech won't ever go on this road bike, won't fit (swingarm hits tyre). The chainrings are 5mm closer to the frame than on a MTB and the rear mech has to cope with the chainring being a 50T, but it has done. What other differences are there apart from the FD cable pull between a road and MTB drivetrain? I can't think of much else.

I say throw it all together and "hope" it works.

Found this:

"operating a "road" front derailleur with a "mountain" shifter will result in the shifter jamming before the internal ratchet catches, meaning the chain will shift but immediately return to its starting position. In other words, the shift fails."

Yeah, this happened when I had the Sora front mech on with MTB shifters, the whole reason I got the R443 in the first place. No offence but I have already been through what you're telling me about using "flat bar" shifters, they are just MTB shifters in (marketing?) disguise. Not marketing as such but they have to be labelled differently just so a commuter doesn't think they are getting a hodge podge of a bike.

My main concern is this "8-speed" (maybe only labelled as such and is a 9-speed one) R443 front mech working with a 10-speed chain. If an 8-speed R443 doesn't even exist, I must have a 9-speed one, if so won't it work better with a 10-speed chain than an 8-speed FD would?

FD's to me aren't a sensitive thing, I mean just give it a shove and its reet.

Manc33

Look:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-r443-tr ... 5300014932

Is it mostly 8-speed, or mostly 9-speed?

njee20

On the rear shifter/mech, it shouldn't matter that its an M980 shifter.

Yes, it will, because MTB 10 speed shifters pull a different amount of cable to road ones, so you'll need a new rear mech, which you won't if you use the R770s.

With the Tiagra R443 on at the front though why isn't a left MTB shifter suitable? The cable pull on the FD is meant for "flat bar" shifters which I thought was secret commuter enthusiasts code for MTB shifters?

No, it's for "flat bar" road bikes, which is what you have. You don't have a mountain bike. This isn't marketing, this is fact. There are dedicated shifters for bikes like yours, LIKE THE R770.

No offence but I have already been through what you're telling me about using "flat bar" shifters, they are just MTB shifters in (marketing?) disguise

And you're also saying how the shifting is stiff, you get rubbing, it won't change properly. Do you perhaps think they could be related? With a triple it's not as clear cut as that quote of yours, they're not incompatible per se, you can get a shifter to work (I used to use a Dura Ace front mech on my MTB as they're lighter), but the throw is shorter, so it introduces more problems than you need.

Is it mostly 8-speed, or mostly 9-speed?

See what it says on the tail of the cage...? It's 8 speed compatible (and indeed 7 and 6 if you want), but it's a 9 speed front mech.

I'm giving up, just go and waste your money on the M980s.

Manc33

How can cable pull differ between a MTB and road ten speed shifter when the cassette block is the same width and the spacings are all the same? How is that even possible?

I am not saying that isn't the case but it sounds so hard and pointless to do, why would Shimano introduce a ton of compatibility issues?

The cable pull on the M980 is already setup that way because it, like the R770, is 10-speed - so you need a 9-speed mech at least. The cable pull on the R770 and M980 is most likely exactly the same. I would rather have the best MTB shifters on it (XTR) and spend £30 on a rear mech, than have mid range shifters. Like with everything else here I have used other shifters and its the one part I want to be reliable and always work, for pretty obvious reasons.

You think I want them because they say XTR on them. If you read the pages and pages of discussions on this you'll find most people say "the extra cash isn't really justifiable but if you want the very best, do get them over XT" and people tend to want to stick to XTR shifters (after using XT).

Those people aren't all just saying that because they are trying to justify buying them although yeah, some will be.

njee20

You think I want them because they say XTR on them

When have I said that? I've used nothing by XX/XTR for years, I'm certainly not decrying the use of XTR. You seem to have a complex about that. I'm suggesting you buy the right product for your bike. Why not wait and get 11 speed Di2 XTR? That really will work better.

The cable pull on the R770 and M980 is most likely exactly the same

Ok, try it. Then when that doesn't work, just buy a SRAM rear mech. They work on the same cassette, therefore they must be the same, right?

Like with everything else here I have used other shifters and its the one part I want to be reliable and always work, for pretty obvious reasons.

Understandably, which is why it would make sense to use the part designed for your bike, LIKE THE R770 SHIFTERS.

I'm not sure if you're stubborn, or stupid.

Manc33

OK but the only reason to do that would be if I "refused to spend" £30 on a 9-speed rear mech, right?

When the upgrade is costing £150-£200 anyway (£40 of that is brake levers) I don't mind spending £30 on a mech, its not like I can't just sell off the old mech etc to offset it a bit. This is the first time ever I am going from all in one shifter "pods", to separates. Reason for that is using MTB brake levers on side pull brakes isn't ideal, gonna try to find a longer MTB brake lever (like the old ones in the 1990s).

I do want 10-speed, after reading that review about it being snappier on the smaller sprockets than the 9-speed it replaced (talking about the M980 groupset Vs the M970).

njee20

Manc33 wrote:

OK but the only reason to do that would be if I "refused to spend" £30 on a 9-speed rear mech, right?

When the upgrade is costing £150-£200 anyway (£40 of that is brake levers) I don't mind spending £30 on a mech, its not like I can't just sell off the old mech etc to offset it a bit. This is the first time ever I am going from all in one shifter "pods", to separates. Reason for that is using MTB brake levers on side pull brakes isn't ideal, gonna try to find a longer MTB brake lever (like the old ones in the 1990s).

I do want 10-speed, after reading that review about it being snappier on the smaller sprockets than the 9-speed it replaced (talking about the M980 groupset Vs the M970).

But you don't have M970s, so it's an irrelevant comparison.

There are flat bar road brake levers. The BL-R780 is the top one Shimano do.

Why would you buy a 9 speed rear mech when you're going 10 speed? If you buy M980 shifters you will have to buy a 10 speed Shimano mountain bike rear mech, nothing else is compatible. If you get the R770s you could use your existing mech, or get a 10 speed road one, but not an 10 speed MTB one.

Manc33

njee20 wrote:

There are flat bar road brake levers. The BL-R780 is the top one Shimano do.

Cheers, its probably going to have to be these. I only wanted longer levers to get more pull, but only needed more pull because they are MTB levers on side pull brakes - safe enough (in the wet I have my reservations and thats with salmons on), but not as powerful as V-brakes or side pulls with road levers.

njee20 wrote:

Why would you buy a 9 speed rear mech when you're going 10 speed? If you buy M980 shifters you will have to buy a 10 speed Shimano mountain bike rear mech, nothing else is compatible. If you get the R770s you could use your existing mech, or get a 10 speed road one, but not an 10 speed MTB one.

I wouldn't necessarily get a 9-speed its just a "theoretical minimum".

I was going to say yeah if I was doing all this, I would just get the XT M786 (but, a used one). Or maybe not when its this price: http://www.hargrovescycles.co.uk/shiman ... tAodJXQA5w

Not sure what that clutch thing on it does but I want it. 8)