functional strength training

poynedexter

with the racing season slowing down in a few weeks, i'm starting to plan for what to do for next year. i'm planning to involve functional strength routines twice a week along with the usual turbo and outdoor stuff. it seems to involve whole body, balance, core stability, flexiblity work, and avoids single muscle group exercises. does anyone else use these routines and had good or no results from them?

single leg squats, jumps, lunges, planks and a variety of body weight exercises are recommended and claim to help create muscles which work better when trained as a whole.

i dont want this to become a dont do weights debate please :roll: , i dont intend to do leg extensions or leg presses.

imposter2.0

poynedexter wrote:

single leg squats, jumps, lunges, planks and a variety of body weight exercises are recommended and claim to help create muscles which work better when trained as a whole.

what does that even mean?

poynedexter

Imposter wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

single leg squats, jumps, lunges, planks and a variety of body weight exercises are recommended and claim to help create muscles which work better when trained as a whole.

what does that even mean?

it means not doing isolation exercises on machines, amoung other things

imposter2.0

poynedexter wrote:

Imposter wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

single leg squats, jumps, lunges, planks and a variety of body weight exercises are recommended and claim to help create muscles which work better when trained as a whole.

what does that even mean?

it means not doing isolation exercises on machines, amoung other things

ok - so that's what it doesn't mean. What does it actually mean? Personally, I wouldn't want to be doing an exercise regime that I couldn't explain...

JayKosta

Since you mentioned "racing season", I'm guessing that your primary long-term goal is to improve your racing performance. If that's the case, then you need to determine what parts of your current physical condition need improvement - and then do 'functional training' to improve those aspects.

How do you currently find yourself lacking in races or aggressive group rides? Hills? Sprints? Endurance? etc.
Are you carrying extra body fat?
Is your 'body type' / 'athletic ability' compatible with successful bike racing?

A limited amount of whole body exercise is good for overall conditioning, but bike racing has specific requirements that need to be addressed by people who are really familiar (experienced) with it. Asking for advice on a 'general interest bike forum' might not generate the best responses.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

poynedexter

thanks jay,

i guess i'm doing what i can in terms of bike time, turbo and racing. but i'm beginning to think that as much as i can ride and work my legs, the support network for those muscles need improvement. ie core strength and flexibility. i'm thinking that they are restricting my legs and merely riding more wont make the gains i need to make, does this make sense?

i'm planning vo2 max tests (to find out if i'm a total donkey) and a body fat pod test.

also i'm way less muscular than those i'm racing with, and its gotta be a factor? no?

imposter2.0

poynedexter wrote:

also i'm way less muscular than those i'm racing with, and its gotta be a factor? no?

Correct. No.

What kind of racing are you doing - and what level of on-bike training are you doing?

sloppyschleckonds

madasahattersley wrote:

poynedexter wrote:

they are restricting my legs and merely riding more wont make the gains i need to make, does this make sense?

No idea what makes you think that but good luck with whatever you're trying to achieve.

The OP would be better of getting a coach to look at his training

jibberjim

poynedexter wrote:

also i'm way less muscular than those i'm racing with, and its gotta be a factor? no?

Possibly a huge advantage, depending on what type of races you're doing (ie huge advantage on 1 hour climbs, less of an advantage on others, disadvantage in the 500m ...)

JayKosta

Regarding your muscle development, much depends on your age, and the type and amount of previous training you have done - and also your genetics.

I think you need to see and talk with a competent coach or trainer (even briefly or informally) who will give you some personal attention.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

top_bhoy

JayKosta wrote:

Regarding your muscle development, much depends on your age, and the type and amount of previous training you have done - and also your genetics.

I think you need to see and talk with a competent coach or trainer (even briefly or informally) who will give you some personal attention.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

If the 'competent' coach recommends weights as part of an overall training structure, in the eyes of many on here they would be incompetent. You need to define competent :P

dennisn

Top_Bhoy wrote:

JayKosta wrote:

Regarding your muscle development, much depends on your age, and the type and amount of previous training you have done - and also your genetics.

I think you need to see and talk with a competent coach or trainer (even briefly or informally) who will give you some personal attention.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

If the 'competent' coach recommends weights as part of an overall training structure, in the eyes of many on here they would be incompetent. You need to define competent :P

Competent - Any person out there except the people chiming in on this topic who are giving advise.

olake92

At the risk of being attacked and gutted, then hung up by my feet as a reminder to never mess with the rules, I'm going to stick my neck out; I think functional strength training is a good idea. You seem to already realise the difference between functional strength and aesthetic body building etc, so you don't need lectures on that.

I've found strength training helps. I include squats, single leg squats, deadlifts, calf raises, bench press, press ups, pull ups, rows, sit ups, planks, side plank and lots of SMR and stretching, which kind of goes hand in hand with functional training.

It does not make me faster at sub-maximal efforts - that is the first point to make and one that I think many people misunderstand and therefore use to write off strength training. It does increase my sprint speed however, which is simply a short maximal burst very closely related to maximal strength and similar to lifting a heavy weight (there's a reason all the sprinters have big muscles). Anyway, I think you know this already.

So what does strength training do? It makes you more efficient; it makes you more comfortable on the bike (planks etc improve core strength and stability); allows you to put out power while in the stress position that is cycling; keeps you more stable and thus waste less energy; helps to prevent lower back/shoulder/neck pain; helps muscle groups to fire correctly where one may be compensating for a weakness in another (this happens quite often with the glutes); prevents injury by strengthening connective tissue and bones.

That last one is the most important! Here's some anecdotal evidence; I had quadriceps and Achilles tendonitis earlier this year. Adequate rest, stretching, massage was helping but not curing it. After two weeks of daily eccentric strengthening exercises, I was good to go! A week later I managed a 4hr race with little to no pain. I certainly notice a difference when I stop strength training.

Functional strength training will not make you faster on its own, but it has a place in your training routine and helps to build the base upon which you can train hard. Don't think of yourself as a cyclist, train like an athlete.

Also, would you rather look like Froome or Boonen? To be less mean and compare Froome to other GC hopefuls, Jakob Fuglsang or Michal Kwiatkowski are both very strong cyclists who can still ride up mountains very quickly.

This guy has some useful stuff - I've linked to him before and I believe he knows what he's talking about.

Links:

This is a pretty good explanation of some types of leg strengthening you could do.

This is a good scientific breakdown (including studies) of how strength training aids endurance athletes.

(EDIT: I'd be really interested to hear from people who have included functional strength training and had no results at all)

dennisn

olake92 wrote:

At the risk of being attacked and gutted, then hung up by my feet as a reminder to never mess with the rules, I'm going to stick my neck out; I think functional strength training is a good idea. You seem to already realise the difference between functional strength and aesthetic body building etc, so you don't need lectures on that.

I've found strength training helps. I include squats, single leg squats, deadlifts, calf raises, bench press, press ups, pull ups, rows, sit ups, planks, side plank and lots of SMR and stretching, which kind of goes hand in hand with functional training.

It does not make me faster at sub-maximal efforts - that is the first point to make and one that I think many people misunderstand and therefore use to write off strength training. It does increase my sprint speed however, which is simply a short maximal burst very closely related to maximal strength and similar to lifting a heavy weight (there's a reason all the sprinters have big muscles). Anyway, I think you know this already.

So what does strength training do? It makes you more efficient; it makes you more comfortable on the bike (planks etc improve core strength and stability); allows you to put out power while in the stress position that is cycling; keeps you more stable and thus waste less energy; helps to prevent lower back/shoulder/neck pain; helps muscle groups to fire correctly where one may be compensating for a weakness in another (this happens quite often with the glutes); prevents injury by strengthening connective tissue and bones.

That last one is the most important! Here's some anecdotal evidence; I had quadriceps and Achilles tendonitis earlier this year. Adequate rest, stretching, massage was helping but not curing it. After two weeks of daily eccentric strengthening exercises, I was good to go! A week later I managed a 4hr race with little to no pain. I certainly notice a difference when I stop strength training.

Functional strength training will not make you faster on its own, but it has a place in your training routine and helps to build the base upon which you can train hard. Don't think of yourself as a cyclist, train like an athlete.

Also, would you rather look like Froome or Boonen? To be less mean and compare Froome to other GC hopefuls, Jakob Fuglsang or Michal Kwiatkowski are both very strong cyclists who can still ride up mountains very quickly.

This guy has some useful stuff - I've linked to him before and I believe he knows what he's talking about.

Links:

This is a pretty good explanation of some types of leg strengthening you could do.

This is a good scientific breakdown (including studies) of how strength training aids endurance athletes.

(EDIT: I'd be really interested to hear from people who have included functional strength training and had no results at all)

OMG. They are gonna come for ya. Blasphemy like that will not be tolerated. You shouldn't have told them where you live.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Only studies that claim an improvement have been cited, including that last link. It's classic cherry picking to suit the message, rather than looking at the evidence and drawing a sound conclusion.

One example is the study linked talking about strength and efficiency. It's a pretty weak study, with no control group(s). All you can say is that the measured DE changed, but not why. To do that you need controls. The other problem is it doesn't assess use of such training compared with on bike training efforts for which we know have a greater impact to performance.

For a review to be really useful, it should cover all relevant studies, and it should also assess the validity of the conclusions by examining the protocols used and raw data.

When you examine the body of evidence on the topic, you realise that evidence of performance improvement for endurance cycling from such training is pretty weak/equivocal, and does not match gains from on bike training efforts (e.g. intervals).

That's not to say one shouldn't do it as there are many reasons why you might, but don't expect on bike performance miracles, and there is more likely to be better ways to attain endurance cycling performance improvement through on the bike training.

As for anecdotes, my own experience with various forms of strength training is that my performance in endurance events and even in short duration track racing declined. Even my sprint got worse. The stronger I got, the slower I went.

olake92

I'll admit that the studies aren't great, as you say they're small groups and some lack controls. I tried to avoid studies using untrained individuals as that's not really what we're talking about and it would definitely skew the study.

I'll also agree that training on the bike trumps training off of it, both in terms of improving cycling efficiency and improving actual cycling ability. I specifically mention that it won't make you faster on its own. However, my point is that it's a very good supplement and trains areas that are neglected while on the bike.

Interesting to hear that your performance declined. Do you think that could be to do with increased muscle mass or did your amount of on bike training decrease while you undertook the strength training? I've found that the strength training has to be cycling specific. For instance, pedalling at 90 rpm, one revolution takes around .66 seconds, so squats should be performed as explosively as possible in order to train a fast movement. I saw one study (unfortunately I don't have the inclination to find it again :P ) that showed the effect on baseball pitchers of training with heavier or lighter balls. The heavier balls produced a slower throw but allowed more power, the lighter balls did the opposite. Therefore, the strength training needed to be supplemented with low resistance work (maybe plyometrics too?).

I can't see any down side to core work though. One of the reasons I like squats/deadlifts and heavy compound movements like pull up is that they are very good at engaging all of the core.

Alex_Simmons/RST

I did a range of different types of strength work at different times, from free squats (e.g. I would do several sets of 6-10 x 2.5 x body mass - which was very hard, many elite track sprinters are not that strong) amongst other lifts. At other times I focussed on explosive type of movements like you describe.

Training complemented on bike work, but of course I had to adjust what I could do on the bike.

I also used to do a regular set of training with track sprinters, and that was the training that saw my peak power improve the most, and I credit most of it to many hundreds of track standing starts and flying sprints. Although ironically my best ever peak power came at end of hard and very hot crit in which I broke away and was joined by another, we stayed away and we had a two up sprint at the end. And that was after months of solid aerobic training with little to no sprint work. Motivation is a powerful ally for peak power.

Then of course I had an accident and lower leg amputation, so when coming back to cycling such gym work wasn't really feasible. I tried it and all I ended up with was terrible knee trouble due to interface between prosthetic and my knee and that meant I couldn't use my prosthetic leg for weeks. No walking/riding etc.

So I focussed on on-the-bike training (as I had ultimately done before). I had lost 200-250W off my peak/5-sec power but the rest of my power duration capability was as good if not better and my race results were as good if not better, e.g. with my team I set national record in masters team pursuit both before and after amputation. My race strategy had to change, given the reduction in peak power meant I had one less weapon to use.

In any case, I don't for one moment assume my experience is universally applicable, as there are others who have done such gym work and improved. What can't really say though is whether it is because of or in spite of such work, and whether other training may have been more productive.

poynedexter

the reason why i think functional strength training may help me is because of my weaknesses are:

flexibility
balance
minor aches in both lower back and neck.

i have bought the tom danielson book and it trys to explain how these weaknesses result in reduced cycling performance. i could pedal all day long and still not address these weaknesses.

imposter2.0

When you say 'balance' - do you mean a 'L/R power' type of balance, or some kind of middle ear problem..?

poynedexter

definately l/r power. i need to pay attention to a weak left knee area.

mackdaddy

Wow it's been two years since I was on this forum and the threads are almost identical to where I left

To answer imposter's question from way back at the start, functional strength training, or whatever you choose to call it, uses whole chain movements instead of isolation exercises. So poyndexter is right and sometimes it is easier to explain what something isn't rather than what something is. A calf raise is a isolation exercise as is a bicep curl. A lunge on the other hand uses the whole muscle chain. They don't necessary have to be bodyweight only.

Now I know many people are against doing non-cycling as training for cycling, but you guys need to read the OP. If you have a weakness in the core, it will detract from your cycling. Alex is right, learning to squat 6000lbs will not improve your cycling, but improving a weak core will. Your body is not made up of just your quads. They're connected to other stuff and if that other stuff is jelly, then you're going to lose power.

Personally, I'd recommend deep core work such as pilates. Part of the reason many people fail to translate improvements is that they just do exercises like planks and lunges really badly.

Unleash the dogs!!!

dennisn

mackdaddy wrote:

Wow it's been two years since I was on this forum and the threads are almost identical to where I left

To answer imposter's question from way back at the start, functional strength training, or whatever you choose to call it, uses whole chain movements instead of isolation exercises. So poyndexter is right and sometimes it is easier to explain what something isn't rather than what something is. A calf raise is a isolation exercise as is a bicep curl. A lunge on the other hand uses the whole muscle chain. They don't necessary have to be bodyweight only.

Now I know many people are against doing non-cycling as training for cycling, but you guys need to read the OP. If you have a weakness in the core, it will detract from your cycling. Alex is right, learning to squat 6000lbs will not improve your cycling, but improving a weak core will. Your body is not made up of just your quads. They're connected to other stuff and if that other stuff is jelly, then you're going to lose power.

Personally, I'd recommend deep core work such as pilates. Part of the reason many people fail to translate improvements is that they just do exercises like planks and lunges really badly.

Unleash the dogs!!!

Woof woof