Commuting as training

menthel

So, how do you do it? My recent cycling has led me to realise where I am lacking and it would be nice to do something about it but leading a busy life means that my commute is probably the best time to do a bit of training.

On the TT on Sunday my legs seemed to be the limiting factor, tiring before I became uncomfortably out of breath or my HR climbed to far (ave HR was 154 and max of 161). This also seems to occur when climbing hills- I tend to have my legs fail first, often just before the top!

What would help with this that I could do on my trips to and from work? My commute is 13km along CS7 and then down Queenstown Road and over Chelsea Bridge. I try to add in Richmond Park once a week so that may also be a good opportunity to add something different.

Sorry for the long questions but my tired legs need your help!

mtb-idle

I commute a reasonable distance (18 miles each way) 4 or 5 days a week. Whilst it's great in terms of increasing general stamina and distance covered (12,000 km p.a.) it's not particularly good at specific training e.g. hill climbing (there aren't any) or interim training (too much traffic etc).

But it is good for allowing me to spend 2 1/4 hours per day on the bike that would otherwise be dead time i.e. sitting on tube/train.

So it depends how targeted you want it to be

menthel

I know what needs to be improved, I am just wondering what can be done within my limited time to actually improve it. Whilst my commute (mostly) helps me keep the weight off and gives me some exercise, it is not helping with the things that seem to hold me back- I would really love to get over those hills without the capitulation 100m from the top. I would also like to give TTs another try now I know what it involves.

tgotb

I've done almost no non-commute training in the last few months (though I have raced pretty much every weekend). What seems to work for me is riding the longest stretches I can at about 120-130% FTP. In real terms, this means riding all the way from Battersea Bridge to LBR at around 25mph, on the hoods. Same thing across the park in the evening (though not in the morning, as I haven't warmed up) and along LRR if safe to do so. Recover at lights and in busy bits. If you get a run of green lights, just keep the hammer down and suck it up. Absolutely no drafting (mopeds, lorries, other bikes).
I use NKR and any busy areas to recover, normally too dangerous to do that sort of speed along there. If in any doubt, take it easy!

That, and a race every weekend (mostly 25s at the moment) seem to keep me topped up. I raced the last 'cross season, which helped me get a real step-up in performance; if you were really dedicated you could replicate that with a couple of really intense interval sessions a week on the turbo, but I don't have the mental fortitude to do that...

I also came to the conclusion that (at our level) over-training is pretty hard to do; with hindsight, I've wasted lots of training time in the past by taking it easy when I really should have pushed through it. Now I just take it a bit easy if I have an important race the next day, and I've been going a lot better.

Edit: This is a bit controversial (especially for TTs), but consider learning to spin. If your legs are struggling but your heart/lungs ok, consider pedalling faster and transferring some of that load to your cardiovascular system. On the flip side, if your legs feel great but you can hardly breathe, flick it up a gear.

smokey_bacon

Given the "challenges" of commuting I try to stick to tempo (usually 70-80% effort) and increase my mileage. Of course there are the odd balls out blasts but nothing that I would call interval training. I'm interested going longer and higher not necessarily faster so it works for me. As for hills I find my own pace where I can keep a decentish rpm (standard stuff really). What helps me alot is a change in pedal stroke, i think its called ankling, it helps me get a bit more purchase on the pedal and uses different muscles.

pblakeney

You could possibly check your cadence.
It sounds to me like you may be grinding out too big a gear and stressing your muscles.
Try an easier gear and pedal faster for the same speed.
It feels strange and inefficient at first but the benefits will become apparent.

vimfuego

I do 16 miles each way in from Epsom via CS7 - like you say, it's been good for general base work and keeping the mileage up/weight off BUT there's no hills to speak of (the awesome fear-inducing Balham Hill excepted obviously ) so no real help with climbing. Personally I do like climbing (though Surrey has no answer to the Ventoux) so build my weekend "proper" rides round various of the Surrey Hills/North Downs - plenty of people on this forum are happy to moan about the roads, traffic etc - but I've never had a problem and love it out there. Loads of lumpy route options, lots of other cyclists (I think we officially outnumber cars in a lot of places of a weekend) and on my doorstep - perfect.

My own view is that if you want to improve your climbing, just seek out hills whenever you can and keep riding them, you soon work out your own style and preferences and manage the climbs better. As for the commuting - I view chasing down RLJers (where its safe to do so) and freewheeling past them whilst trying to look completely in control and not at all out of breath, as interval work - so I guess the idiots do have their uses after all!

menthel

So, current summary is:

• Go faster on normal commute
• Keep HR up in Z4
• Hit hills when possible
• Don't bother dawdling or with recovery riding

UndercoverElephant

Don't forget all those people saying change gear, you're mashing too much.

menthel

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Don't forget all those people saying change gear, you're mashing too much.

I don't think I am mashing- certainly not when my hill failures tend to happen in 34/30!

vermin

You don't need hills to train for riding up them. Simulate hills by riding hard on the flat.

jonnyboy77

menthel wrote:

So, how do you do it? My recent cycling has led me to realise where I am lacking and it would be nice to do something about it but leading a busy life means that my commute is probably the best time to do a bit of training.

On the TT on Sunday my legs seemed to be the limiting factor, tiring before I became uncomfortably out of breath or my HR climbed to far (ave HR was 154 and max of 161). This also seems to occur when climbing hills- I tend to have my legs fail first, often just before the top!

What would help with this that I could do on my trips to and from work? My commute is 13km along CS7 and then down Queenstown Road and over Chelsea Bridge. I try to add in Richmond Park once a week so that may also be a good opportunity to add something different.

Sorry for the long questions but my tired legs need your help!

I don't race, but I've found my 15 mile (each way) commute has improved various aspects of my cycling (notably speed & stamina). I recently did the Wiggle Dragon Ride (220km distance) and finished it comfortably- my only training was the commute and the odd Surrey Hills ride.

The HR reference was interesting - how does this translate into zones? My max HR is 180 something, so Z5 is 179+ and Z4 160+ so I try to operate within Z4 most of the time (when pushing) and avoid dipping into Z5 for any length of time (I've heard this referred to as burning matches, and you only have 3-5 Z5 matches, or something along those lines).

The commute affords me a number of segments in which to push hard (and on my aluminium hybrid with rucksack, lock etc) and try to find the optimum gear selection (I have 10 to choose from); all of which seems to translate into increased overall performance on the carbon road bike! What it doesn't offer (as others have said) is the hill climbing, but then I found in Wales that I was (relatively) happy with the climbing off the back of my commuting.

My thoughts on this then basically summarise into casual observation of HR zones & gear selection in pursuit of increased pace in segments that permit it.

I wonder if a power meter would add another dimension to this?

- Jon

markhewitt1978

I've been thinking something similar, although I don't commute and I'm not going to be able to. But I'm thinking 30 minutes 3 or 4 times a week, up the local hill and back down, might be a better idea than what I currently do through the week which is an hours ride maybe once a week.

tgotb

menthel wrote:

Sprints when safe

I'd say emphatically *not* this. You want to go harder than you would in a race, but we're talking the sort of pace you can *just* sustain for 2-3 minutes. Going flat out and fading after 45 seconds is going to be counterproductive because you'll be too tired to do the longer bits. So don't ride at *too* high an intensity because it'll cut down the amount you can ride at the right intensity.

The only reason to go flat out off the lights is if you're training for a race with mass starts (CX, MTB etc).

pblakeney

menthel wrote:

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Don't forget all those people saying change gear, you're mashing too much.

I don't think I am mashing- certainly not when my hill failures tend to happen in 34/30!

Your legs may be fatigued before you get to the hill.
Out of curiosity, what cadence do you ride at?

Another commuting benefit is that sprinting and resting between lights is simply interval training. That made a big difference to me. I prefer for there not to be lights but that is for the enjoyment of cycling, not training.

menthel

Now my brain is starting to hurt!

I will take sprints off the list.

With regards HR- I have taken my max as being the highest HR I have seen whilst cycling- 179 in my case. From this I usually end up doing most of my commute in Z2-3!

I know I can do distance (200km Audax a few weeks ago) and if it is rolling countryside I can keep on going all day at a sensible pace.

As for cadence, I have no idea as I have no way of measuring but I don't think its low at all- I don't feel as if I am grinding my way along.

rower63

I've commuted by bike since 1989, and my "style" has remained pretty much unchanged throughout. That is, as far as traffic and conditions allow, full-on all the way. Until around 2.5 years ago, that was 10 miles each way. It was not enough to keep fit for rowing training or racing. I found that if I relied only on the riding, my sculling speed would suffer and my "peers" would beat me.
In November 2011 I moved, and my commute went to 19 miles each way (every day). Still using the same "always-on" philosophy, I've found my riding speed and power has noticeably increased, and the riding alone is now enough to remain stronger and to have improved all my rowing-based measures.
I put it partly down to the fact that it takes 30-40 minutes to warm up properly, the full extent of my former commute, and only then can I really start to hammer it, for instance be able to sustain 400W for 5 minutes and get real training benefit. If I try to do that earlier in my ride, for instance in RP on the way in after only ~16 minutes, my legs will just seize up.

mtb-idle

it doesn't really help but the best way to train to ride up hills is to errr...ride up hills, a lot.

I'm an MTB'er by trade so never worried about HR, cadence, FTP and all that other sh*te that roadies love so much. I started back cycle commuting in 2009 (after a brief period in 2003/2004) to increase my stamina for my MTB'ing at weekends.

And it worked, I could ride faster and farther but still wasn't particularly strong up hills (the Surrey Hills mainly). I will always get up a hill just not necessarily as fast as my mates.

Then in 2011 I took my sons to follow the TDF in the alps. We rode proper mountains including the alpe d'huez and Galibier for four days from Tuesday to Friday and then came back home.

I went out MTB'ing on the Sunday for a 3 hills loop (Leith, Pitch & Holmbury hills). I absolutely destroyed everyone else on the climbs, powering up them in the big ring (44T on an MTB).

Felt super strong on my daily commute the following week too but was back to flat, London stylie commuting.

Come the following weekend I was back to my usual level on the MTB.

Go figure!

Edit: this pattern has repeated itself each year as I have returned to follow the TDF in 2012, '13 & shortly to be '14.

vimfuego

what's the saying..... Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

kurako

Between Worple Road and Ridgeway ... go up one road and down the next until you get to Wimbledon. Practice makes perfect.

tgotb

menthel wrote:

With regards HR- I have taken my max as being the highest HR I have seen whilst cycling- 179 in my case. From this I usually end up doing most of my commute in Z2-3!

I've been there; you'll definitely benefit from going harder!

To the guys telling him to go and ride up hills: Have you actually read the original question?

As an aside, I spent a week doing some quite fast riding in the Alps last year, off the back of commute-only training (and a few TTs) and was just fine. At our level, 300W is 300W, whether you're hammering along a dual carriageway or riding up an Alp.

kurako

menthel wrote:

On the TT on Sunday my legs seemed to be the limiting factor, tiring before I became uncomfortably out of breath or my HR climbed to far (ave HR was 154 and max of 161). This also seems to occur when climbing hills- I tend to have my legs fail first, often just before the top!

Legs are tiring before out of breath. The muscles are not strong enough to do what he is asking them to do. Climb some hills to strengthen the muscles. The commute from Raynes Park is very flat (Col du Balham nothwistanding) but with an extra 10-15 mins each way he can get a bit of extra climbing in easy. Climbs up to Wimbledon Common are short but quite steep.

menthel

Kurako wrote:

menthel wrote:

On the TT on Sunday my legs seemed to be the limiting factor, tiring before I became uncomfortably out of breath or my HR climbed to far (ave HR was 154 and max of 161). This also seems to occur when climbing hills- I tend to have my legs fail first, often just before the top!

Legs are tiring before out of breath. The muscles are not strong enough to do what he is asking them to do. Climb some hills to strengthen the muscles. The commute from Raynes Park is very flat (Col du Balham nothwistanding) but with an extra 10-15 mins each way he can get a bit of extra climbing in easy. Climbs up to Wimbledon Common are short but quite steep.

I know the roads- what a way to spend an evening!

I think that my legs have the wrong kind of strength, I can shift big old weights with them at the gym (PT once a week and no more) but I think I lack cycling strenght if that makes sense (fast vs slow twitch I believe the terminology is).

kurako

menthel wrote:

Kurako wrote:

menthel wrote:

On the TT on Sunday my legs seemed to be the limiting factor, tiring before I became uncomfortably out of breath or my HR climbed to far (ave HR was 154 and max of 161). This also seems to occur when climbing hills- I tend to have my legs fail first, often just before the top!

Legs are tiring before out of breath. The muscles are not strong enough to do what he is asking them to do. Climb some hills to strengthen the muscles. The commute from Raynes Park is very flat (Col du Balham nothwistanding) but with an extra 10-15 mins each way he can get a bit of extra climbing in easy. Climbs up to Wimbledon Common are short but quite steep.

I know the roads- what a way to spend an evening!

I think that my legs have the wrong kind of strength, I can shift big old weights with them at the gym (PT once a week and no more) but I think I lack cycling strenght if that makes sense (fast vs slow twitch I believe the terminology is).

Different things use the muscles in different ways. I can push a decent gear but a 5k run leaves me limping around for about a week.

pblakeney

menthel wrote:

With regards HR- I have taken my max as being the highest HR I have seen whilst cycling- 179 in my case. From this I usually end up doing most of my commute in Z2-3!

Go harder.
My non-scientific guide is:-
z0 - at rest.
z1 - cooling down, pootling.
z2 - warming up, pootling.
z3 - general cycling, high z3 training.
z4 - low z4 training, high z4 pushing it.
z5 - sprinting, cresting a hill.
z6 - EASE UP!

menthel wrote:

As for cadence, I have no idea as I have no way of measuring but I don't think its low at all- I don't feel as if I am grinding my way along.

If you don't know, then you won't know. Count if you can, get a meter if you can't. I couldn't be bothered counting, I was surprised at how low my cadence was - a natural 67. This meant that I had strong, powerful thighs that could push a big gear but I would fatigue and burn out. Increasing cadence means I can ride further and longer. Hills are easier too.

You need to know if the problem is a lack of power output or fatigue and address which ever one it is.

rower63

menthel wrote:

I think that my legs have the wrong kind of strength, I can shift big old weights with them at the gym (PT once a week and no more) but I think I lack cycling strenght if that makes sense (fast vs slow twitch I believe the terminology is).

One of my exercises, I think I've mentioned it here before, is borrowed from Graeme Obree's autobiography. Do a whole ride entirely in the hardest gear, eg 50x12, including any standing starts. In a commute, with so many stops for lights etc, it's a very good way of getting "free" cycle-specific leg-strength training. I used to do it once a week, I must get back into the habit.

menthel

Kurako wrote:

menthel wrote:

Kurako wrote:

menthel wrote:

On the TT on Sunday my legs seemed to be the limiting factor, tiring before I became uncomfortably out of breath or my HR climbed to far (ave HR was 154 and max of 161). This also seems to occur when climbing hills- I tend to have my legs fail first, often just before the top!

Legs are tiring before out of breath. The muscles are not strong enough to do what he is asking them to do. Climb some hills to strengthen the muscles. The commute from Raynes Park is very flat (Col du Balham nothwistanding) but with an extra 10-15 mins each way he can get a bit of extra climbing in easy. Climbs up to Wimbledon Common are short but quite steep.

I know the roads- what a way to spend an evening!

I think that my legs have the wrong kind of strength, I can shift big old weights with them at the gym (PT once a week and no more) but I think I lack cycling strenght if that makes sense (fast vs slow twitch I believe the terminology is).

Different things use the muscles in different ways. I can push a decent gear but a 5k run leaves me limping around for about a week.

I am perhaps the opposite then. I can happily run 5-10km at 5min/km (not too bad for an ex fat bloke).

I will be pushing myself on the commute from now. I will have a think about the wimbledon hill repeats...

rolf_f

vimfuego wrote:

what's the saying..... Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades.

Well nobody has suggested the OP spend his way out of the issue so the saying is irrelevant and, of course, we don't have grades here - we have hills or slopes or gradients; no grades!

I've dropped from 30 miles a day commuting to 20 miles a day - plus weekend rides. The reduced mileage seems to have had a huge positive impact in my pace. Less is more!

vimfuego

TGOTB wrote:

menthel wrote:

To the guys telling him to go and ride up hills: Have you actually read the original question?

erm... yes. And the subsequent comments too. :?
obviously just focusing on some aspects of it rather than others.

Anyway - good luck with it. Ride hard. Ride uphill when you can. And don't underestimate the need for recovery now & again.

Happy riding....I mean training.

menthel

What, you mean a lovely new Super Acciaio or Baracchi with some deep rims won't help?!?

markhewitt1978

menthel wrote:

What, you mean a lovely new Super Acciaio or Baracchi with some deep rims won't help?!?

No but switching to commuting on a Halfords BSO with massive heavy knobbly tyres might