TRP HyRd - should it be a recall?

meanredspider

As per my AD6 report, my TRP HyRd had issues on the ride. After 2 descents of Alpe D'Huez, I had no front brake. It transpired that the pad wear compensation wasn't working on my first gen calliper so I ran out of lever travel once the pad wore down. Fortunately
a. I had done a test ride so was aware of the issue and had plenty of spare pads and was monitoring this closely
b. I had a BB7 on the back which is obviously unaffected by this issue.

Anyhow, I posted this issue on the Volagi FB page and had another rider who'd had exactly the same issue with his first gen HyRd callipers. Mine and his have both been changed under warranty.

The question is: shouldn't TRP be doing a recall on these 1st gen callipers? I work in quality and get involved in recall decisions - I'd have thought this was pretty close. It's not hard to think of a scenario where you'd be out of brakes. I asked the guy at TRP to comment but, I suppose, I shouldn't be surprised I got no response.

What do you think?

timothyw

Well, it sounds like they ought but perhaps after the Spyre recall they're a bit reluctant to take the hit again.

bunter

ouch, that sounds a bit scary.

some questions: (I have HY/RDs)

How do you tell if you have 1st gen HY/RDs?
Did you notice having to pull the lever ever closer to the bar as the pad wore down?
Did you use the lock screw when you set the cable tension? - the manual says if the lever can't fully return then the system can't self adjust (I think)

meanredspider

bunter wrote:

ouch, that sounds a bit scary.

some questions: (I have HY/RDs)

How do you tell if you have 1st gen HY/RDs?
Did you notice having to pull the lever ever closer to the bar as the pad wore down?
Did you use the lock screw when you set the cable tension? - the manual says if the lever can't fully return then the system can't self adjust (I think)

Not sure how you tell 1st gen but you can always email info@trpbrakes.com to ask.

Yes - basically the lever gets closer to the bars until there's no more travel - not something you notice as you hurtle down a 12% switchback Alpine descent though :shock: Not until you realise you aren't slowing as quickly as you'd like! :roll:

And, yes, brakes were set up perfectly. I entirely understand the principle (I prepare my own race car in which brakes are quite critical ) but, even with the pads removed and the cable disconnected, cycling the lever on the calliper only produces the tiniest inward adjustment of the pad (maybe a way to test yours?). I suspect the callipers do compensate but just not quick enough to keep up with organic pad wear on a long fast descent.

First.Aspect

I take it you've read this? https://www.trpbrakes.com/userfiles/fil ... ev%20B.pdf

Assuming you have and the line to the master cylinder doesn't have sufficient capacity to keep up with prolonged periods of braking, wouldn't pumping the brakes have worked?

meanredspider

First Aspect wrote:

I take it you've read this? https://www.trpbrakes.com/userfiles/fil ... ev%20B.pdf

Assuming you have and the line to the master cylinder doesn't have sufficient capacity to keep up with prolonged periods of braking, wouldn't pumping the brakes have worked?

Yes & No


Actually, as above. Just take a calliper and pump the lever with no pads. If you do the equivalent with a proper hydraulic brake, it won't be long before your pistons have dropped out. I could pump my calliper 50x and the pistons still hadn't stepped in much. And it's not air or lack of fluid as the lever was always firm.

First.Aspect

meanredspider wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

I take it you've read this? https://www.trpbrakes.com/userfiles/fil ... ev%20B.pdf

Assuming you have and the line to the master cylinder doesn't have sufficient capacity to keep up with prolonged periods of braking, wouldn't pumping the brakes have worked?

Yes & No


Actually, as above. Just take a calliper and pump the lever with no pads. If you do the equivalent with a proper hydraulic brake, it won't be long before your pistons have dropped out. I could pump my calliper 50x and the pistons still hadn't stepped in much. And it's not air or lack of fluid as the lever was always firm.

Good to know. Did they ever work? I wonder if something is getting degraded by the brake fluid (crappy seal or something).

Either way, did your shorts clean up okay?

meanredspider

First Aspect wrote:

Good to know. Did they ever work? I wonder if something is getting degraded by the brake fluid (crappy seal or something).

Either way, did your shorts clean up okay?

They seemed to be working OK but, in hindsight, I'm not sure. The fact that TRP swapped them after nothing more than me sending a pic of the calliper suggests they know exactly what's wrong.

Ha - I swapped the callipers at my LBS. I think the guy thought I was mad climbing Alpe D'Huez 6x until he realised that I'd descended the Alpe 5x with a known dodgy brake at which point he thought I had balls the size of planets or had completely lost the plot

bunter

Just out of interest, did you start off the ride with a new set of pads?

Initialised

I also have worked in quality control and take Tektro/TRPs methods as sound.

There is a techbulliten that (kind of) addresses the problem and says don't ride if affected which you chose to ignore.

Whether it's going to be a recall will come down to their FMEA, basically the chance of it killing a few people and making the news in the right channels. From your description I'd say that most affected users are going to notice the problem before it kills them and get in touch (or simply replace the pads or sell on the calipers) so the 'recall' can be done on the quiet on a case-by-case basis.

In addition road disc brakes, especially hydraulics, are currently limited to us early adopters. We are essentially BETA testing the product as a retrofit upgrade to mechanical brakes rather than buying an off the peg bike with them pre-fitted. this market segment typically has higher than average intelligence and fettling ability and the ability to promote the product so it makes sense for TRP to simply send you a GEN-2 product in the hope this give you a warm glow and makes you pass on this "good customer support" message once road Hydros and Electronic shifting go mainstream and integrated shifters become as irrelevant on road bikes as they are on flat bars.

meanredspider

Initialised wrote:

I also have worked in quality control and take Tektro/TRPs methods as sound.

There is a techbulliten that (kind of) addresses the problem and says don't ride if affected which you chose to ignore.

Whether it's going to be a recall will come down to their FMEA, basically the chance of it killing a few people and making the news in the right channels. From your description I'd say that most affected users are going to notice the problem before it kills them and get in touch (or simply replace the pads or sell on the calipers) so the 'recall' can be done on the quiet on a case-by-case basis.

In addition road disc brakes, especially hydraulics, are currently limited to us early adopters. We are essentially BETA testing the product as a retrofit upgrade to mechanical brakes rather than buying an off the peg bike with them pre-fitted. this market segment typically has higher than average intelligence and fettling ability and the ability to promote the product so it makes sense for TRP to simply send you a GEN-2 product in the hope this give you a warm glow and makes you pass on this "good customer support" message once road Hydros and Electronic shifting go mainstream and integrated shifters become as irrelevant on road bikes as they are on flat bars.

Can you point me towards the tech bulletin that even vaguely describes this problem?

I'm less sure than you which was why I asked them for their risk assessment on this issue. Running out of brakes is pretty severe and, as I said, I certainly didn't notice before I had no brakes. I'd like to understand their logic. In the medical device world, this would be a no-brainer recall.

bunter wrote:

Just out of interest, did you start off the ride with a new set of pads?

Not the first test descent that I noticed the issue. But then I did on the day itself I started with new pads and changed them after every other descent. 4 sets of pads for 6 descents!

First.Aspect

Surely a good analogy would be to motorcycles or cars. Would there be a recall if the brakes stopped working on one of those? Toyota issue a recall if the cup holders don't work these days. But I guess bikes are toys, not vehicles.

As cyclists we are so often sold over priced, poorly engineered tat. Many after market parts are made by comparatively small companies and prototyping amounts to sending a bloke out for a ride. I guess its just something you have to live with. Are TRP large enough to cope with a recall?

Initialised

This is the issue:
http://www.trpbrakes.com/userfiles/file ... ev%20B.pdf

TRP wrote:

If the Lock Knob will NOT thread into the actuator arm or is very
difficult, this means that the actuator arm is preventing the piston
from returning fully and has closed off the reservoir port. This
prevents the brake to compensate for pad wear.

To remedy this - follow the cable installation and adjust instructions
in the HYRD Owner's Manual.

DO NOT RIDE A BIKE WITH A BRAKE IN THIS CONDITION.
IT COULD CREATE A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SITUATION,
PARTICULARLY WITH WORN PADS.

The issue you were suffering from no?

meanredspider wrote:

a. I had done a test ride so was aware of the issue and had plenty of spare pads and was monitoring this closely

You were aware of the problem before the ride, yet chose to do a lot of descending on a bike with known faulty or, as TRP may interpret, incorrectly adjusted brakes.

First Aspect wrote:

Surely a good analogy would be to motorcycles or cars. Would there be a recall if the brakes stopped working on one of those? Toyota issue a recall if the cup holders don't work these days. But I guess bikes are toys, not vehicles.

Are TRP large enough to cope with a recall?

Sadly, the main difference in the FMEA for car and cycle brakes is the low probability of third party damages arising in the event of a brake failure.

Yes, Tektro are huge in the OEM market, TRP is just their high end brand.

That they are willing to replace so easily suggests there's a little more to it...

BTW, I'm now relieved I chose a Parabox over the HyRDs.

meanredspider

No - that bulletin is not the issue - my brakes were perfectly set-up absolutely to the letter. Part of the challenge is that there's already a lot of brake lever travel with the HyRd for exactly this reason. It therefore makes it much harder to spot an issue because, even set right, there's probably less than 10mm of lever clearance to the bars.

Having identified the issue, I monitored the lack of compensation and swapped the pads when I needed to. Had I NOT identified the issue, I could have found myself with no front brake unexpectedly.

To be clear, TRP identified from a simple photo of the calliper that they would replace it. I'd contacted them initially to ask them what I was doing wrong. Ironically the HyRd setup video shows a Volagi and that's what I followed in addition to the DFU.

It's disappointing that TRP haven't considered this issue a recall. In the US in particular, they face the risk of very high compensation claims, especially as it can easily be shown that this is a known fault.

Based upon this, I'd be avoiding all TRP/Tekro products in the future as they clearly have a high threshold of risk for their customers. Sooner (probably) or later I'll swap to Shimano full hydraulic brakes.

The Rookie

I would say this should be a recall, if it were on a car it would be.

Brakes are safety critical, the front brake delivers most of the retardadtion, although there is some warning of the failure it would only aid a rider if they were aware of the condition before hand, as a significant decent could see the brake from 'ok' to 'o shite' and a potential for an injury accident then I would say it should be a recall, if anyone is hurt they would be in very deep doo doo as they knew about it and failed to act (negligence arguably).

davis

MRS, any chance you could share that photo please? I've got a pair of TRP HyRds waiting to go on a bike when I eventually get the money...

Feltup

Surely that amount of pad wear isn't normal? There has to be something causing that amount of pad wear.

meanredspider

Feltup wrote:

Surely that amount of pad wear isn't normal? There has to be something causing that amount of pad wear.

What amount of pad wear? The pad is only partially (hardly) worn but, because the pistons don't compensate (quickly?) enough, you run out of adjustment. Whilst two fast descents of Alpe D'Huez isn't "normal" it's perfectly foreseeable.

davis wrote:

MRS, any chance you could share that photo please? I've got a pair of TRP HyRds waiting to go on a bike when I eventually get the money...

Sure - I'll aim to do it when I'm home this evening - feel free to PM me if I forget

Initialised

The Tech Bulletin describes a problem with identical symptoms.

Assuming you've set them up right there is something else preventing the piston from returning.

Can you see any obvious differences in the new calipers?

meanredspider

Initialised wrote:

Assuming you've set them up right there is something else preventing the piston from returning.

There's no need to assume I've set them up right - I HAVE set them up right*

And, yes, there's something else preventing the piston compensating (not returning - it does that fine) - that's why they've replaced them....

I suspect that there is compensation just nothing like enough


* Apart from being able to read instructions and watch videos, I'm a graduate mechanical engineer, a fellow of the IMechE, a medical device quality director, I passed my EP1 and EP2 (hands-on engineering training that apprentices also do), I worked for two years as a shift mechanical foreman on a rolling mill, I've maintained bikes all my life, and I prepare and maintain my own race car. I'm not immune from mistakes but I'm very well qualified to set up a bike brake

meanredspider

davis wrote:

MRS, any chance you could share that photo please? I've got a pair of TRP HyRds waiting to go on a bike when I eventually get the money...

Feltup

meanredspider wrote:

Feltup wrote:

Surely that amount of pad wear isn't normal? There has to be something causing that amount of pad wear.

What amount of pad wear? The pad is only partially (hardly) worn but, because the pistons don't compensate (quickly?) enough, you run out of adjustment. Whilst two fast descents of Alpe D'Huez isn't "normal" it's perfectly foreseeable.

davis wrote:

MRS, any chance you could share that photo please? I've got a pair of TRP HyRds waiting to go on a bike when I eventually get the money...

Sure - I'll aim to do it when I'm home this evening - feel free to PM me if I forget

Ahh I thought you were seeing more wear than that before the issues kicked in.

bobbygloss

On those photos it looks like the Lock Knob is not threaded in, exactly as shown in the link that Initialised posted. Maybe due to a design flaw and not bad setup, but if there were an accident claim then TRP would have some grounds to say that they had warned people about it.

meanredspider

Bobbygloss wrote:

On those photos it looks like the Lock Knob is not threaded in, exactly as shown in the link that Initialised posted. Maybe due to a design flaw and not bad setup, but if there were an accident claim then TRP would have some grounds to say that they had warned people about it.

The lock knob is a complete red herring with this issue!

The lock knob is not meant to be threaded in during use. The process is pretty simple - you lock the lever, adjust the cable to remove slack, then unlock (ensuring that it will re-lock easily enough). From then on, you should be set until the pads wear out because you assured the lever throw will allow filling of the cylinder from the reservoir (it's actually incredibly similar to the master brake cylinder set-up on my floor-standing Alfa brake pedals).

As I've written (probably twice) before, you can completely remove the cable (and the wheel/disc and the pads) leaving the pistons and the lever completely free movement. You can then cycle the lever through its full stroke over and over. The pistons cycle in and out but hardly adjust inward at all. Try the same thing on a conventional hydraulic set-up and the pistons will be on the floor before you know it.

Just so you're all clear - here's the video complete with Volagi (exactly my bike) - notice the amount of brake lever throw at the bars https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8T6cON6y_Y

ugo.santalucia

My take on TRP is that they try to be too clever. Their brakes seem to be miles ahead of the competition in terms of technology, but I have the feeling the same solutions had been considered by Avid and others and discarded as problematic (see dual piston in Spyre). When it comes to brakes, I want the most reliable rather than the most powerful and for this reaons I have steered away from TRP, which seems to have problems on every single product they offer.

guinea

I have the post recall version of these.

They are pish.

Far too much lever travel which is exacerbated by using Campagnolo. TRP say they are fine for all bikes, but it's not true.

I was massively surprised one morning when approaching a roundabout and the front brake did almost no stopping. It was very scary.

Unfortunately it looks like the answer for me is to dump the entire Campagnolo groupset and go to Ultegra with their hydraulic version

The Rookie

Avid are not a good example as their MTB brakes often have an issue with the pistons retracting rather than adjusting, although once they are 'OK' they tend to stay OK. Shimano however are great, my 2006 XT brakes still work perfectly as do my daughters and sons same generation brakes (M765) of unknown age (sold 2005-2009).....

The one thing that sems to help Avids is getting the piston right out and then pushing it back so the seal is then working on a 'wet' and not 'dry' cylinder bore surface.

meanredspider

I'll probably go Shimano full hydraulic. I wasn't sure I'd bother but the reviews of it are excellent

timothyw

Bit of a bugger needing an 11 speed disc brake wheelset though isn't it? That'll probably keep me with Spyres for at least another couple of winters.

meanredspider

TimothyW wrote:

Bit of a bugger needing an 11 speed disc brake wheelset though isn't it? That'll probably keep me with Spyres for at least another couple of winters.

Why 11-speed? I guess you do if you go mechanical shifting? Di2 makes no difference.

asprilla

When Sram release their MY15 S700 group that will be 10 speed compatible.