Climbing wheels

24

Comments

  • intheknowcycling.com
    intheknowcycling.com Posts: 75
    Pedalbasher - I love the C24s for going up. Used them in a century with about 5K ft of climbing last summer and they were superb going up. Only trouble was that they were relatively slow going down and on the flats. I'd beat my buddies going up on the C24s only to have them fly by me on their 45mm rims going down. I agree with others who've said an all-around is the way to go. You've got a good one in the Assault if it is this year's new SLG. The Shimano C35 clincher is a great alternative - a carbon-alloy light all -round wheel with a DA hub. I compared a dozen and a half all-rounders including the C35 and Assault SLG in a recent review on my site. Have a great time on your trip. Steve
  • northpole
    northpole Posts: 1,499
    If you can find a good deal on Fulcrum Zero's they are as stiff as a stiff thing and I reckon are great climbers (esp when accompanied by a decent engine room!). Occasional adjustment required to the hub cover plate is the only slight demerit plus you may not like just how stiff they are, but that's part of the deal when you focus on climbing qualities! Dura-ace would make a fab wheelset also, but given the choice it would be Zeros for me.

    Peter
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    intheknowcycling.com wrote:
    I'd beat my buddies going up on the C24s only to have them fly by me on their 45mm rims going down.

    Can't have beaten them going up by much then.........
    Faster than a tent.......
  • pedalbasher
    pedalbasher Posts: 215
    Thanks for all the responses.

    I do appreciate that saving in the region of 100g on a set of wheels will make s0d all difference to my climbing speeds and I'm unlikely to miss out on the carrot cake simply because I haven't upgraded.

    My issue is this: I have just bought a Scott Foil with 11-speed Ultegra di2. This renders my old 10-speed Ksyriums redundant (although I will put them on my posh winter bike). I have a set of Assaults (2014 model) but I guess I am paranoid about clincher rim failure risks when riding long descents... I'm planning to ride in Mallorca and mainland Spain this summer, and will be tackling one of the Hautes Routes next year, so I think I can just about justify a second pair of 11-speed wheels, as an alternative to the Assaults, for these events and others (which will all be climbing-focussed) and for riding in the UK when it's wet.

    With that in mind, I'm basically looking at replacing my 10-speed Elites with a similar 11-speed, alloy clincher, option. If I'm going down this route, I might as well look for something light and climbing-friendly as this will be the wheels' main purpose).

    The shortlist so far is:

    1. Dura Ace C24s (£620 online deal) - Steve, thanks for the feedback on these, they sound promising although I wonder why others have said they "don't count as stiff"?

    2. Fulcrum Racing Zeros - but is this hub cover plate adjustment issue enough to discard them from the shortlist?

    3. Handbuilt (I like this idea in principle, but cautious because I don't feel knowledgeable enough to know exactly what sort of spec I should be looking for, and would be grateful if anyone can give me a few tips based on my intended use, weight etc)

    Thanks again.

    Any other suggestions?
  • DiscoBoy
    DiscoBoy Posts: 905
    £620 budget for some handbuilts you say?
    viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12964664
    Red bikes are the fastest.
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    Never had an issue with my Zeros - ever. I originally had a red spoked set but sold them to a mate after a couple of years to part cover the cost of my RSY SLR's. Realised I missed them and bought some new Dark Label jobs. I've now got two great wheel sets that never flex and run smoother than a smooth thing.
  • pedalbasher
    pedalbasher Posts: 215
    Wiggle has the C24s at £589, plus Quidco cash back. Think it might be a done deal.

    Does anyone know the weight of the C24s? Can't see it on any retailers' sites.
  • pedalbasher
    pedalbasher Posts: 215
    pedalbasher wrote:
    Wiggle has the C24s at £589, plus Quidco cash back. Think it might be a done deal.

    Does anyone know the weight of the C24s? Can't see it on any retailers' sites.

    I take that back - Wiggle says 1395g. Seems v good if true.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    For handbuilts think the Pacenti SL23 or the Ryde Pulse comp rims, these are light. The Pacenti come in 20H 24H and 28H making a 20F/24R or a 20F/28R possible. The Ryde rims are 24H. 28H or 32H. Pick a light weight but durable hub like Shimano Dura Ace 9000 or maybe White Industries T11. Hope Pro 3's may fit the bill and there many other too like DT Swiss 240's. Use sapim laser spoke and a c 1500g or less wheelset can be built making it comparible to the factory options in terms of stiffness and weight but the handbuilts will easier to repair if something goes wrong.
    For example a 20F/24R build with the SL23 rims, sapim laser spokes/alloy nipples and WI T11 hubs weighs in at 1455g.

    However if the DA C24 float your boat then go ahead many have and you can have them next week if you like ans shimano wheels are normally pretty good.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    well I got c24 cls and I had zero's and I can feel zero difference in stiffness, whether that is road racing, tts or alpine cols, Rapha used them in a Nat A RR around Brentor and Kirsten House didn't seem to have any issues with flexi wheels.
    the c24s are also lighter by a lot, the carbon/alloy rim is where they save the weight.

    Personally I would go for some handbuilt carbon tubs, given what u want them for.
  • kevin_stephens
    kevin_stephens Posts: 184
    How do the Kysrium SLS compare to the other suggestions for climbing and descending?
    I want to climb hills so badly;
    and I climb hills so badly
  • jon33
    jon33 Posts: 256
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    For handbuilts think the Pacenti SL23 or the Ryde Pulse comp rims, these are light. The Pacenti come in 20H 24H and 28H making a 20F/24R or a 20F/28R possible. The Ryde rims are 24H. 28H or 32H. Pick a light weight but durable hub like Shimano Dura Ace 9000 or maybe White Industries T11. Hope Pro 3's may fit the bill and there many other too like DT Swiss 240's. Use sapim laser spoke and a c 1500g or less wheelset can be built making it comparible to the factory options in terms of stiffness and weight but the handbuilts will easier to repair if something goes wrong.
    For example a 20F/24R build with the SL23 rims, sapim laser spokes/alloy nipples and WI T11 hubs weighs in at 1455g.

    However if the DA C24 float your boat then go ahead many have and you can have them next week if you like ans shimano wheels are normally pretty good.

    Would they chance much with Sapim CX Ray spokes?
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    CX-rays can be used practically the same spoke as the laser it just cost alot more for a very slight aero advantage.

    You can calculate your power output by the following equation

    P = power
    Vg is ground speed
    Va is air wind i.e wind
    Grad is grad in %
    Theta is the angle of the slope = Tan^-1 (grad/100)
    Mr is mass of rider
    Mb is mass of bike
    CdA is drag coefficent x frontal area use 0.40 for on the hoods
    Fw is a factor which model the energy requirments to keep a wheel spinning, 0.044 for a non aero wheel (this is an empirical factor).
    rho is the density of air 1.2 kg.m^-3
    Crr is the rolling resistance of your tyres ~0.0025

    P = 0.5*CdA*rho*(Vg+Va)^2*Vg + ((Mr+Mb)*crr*9.81*cos(theta) +FwVg^3 + (Mr+Mb)*9.81*sin(theta)

    To put into context for me 84kg (clothed) on a 10kg bike going up a 5% gradient at 6ms^-1 (13.4 mph) power is 341 W assuming no headwind. On an 8 kg bike power is 334W. A real saving 7W but it translates to 0.2mph speed advantage! So on a 1km climb (where do we have one of those) I would on a 8kg bike arrive at the mythical tea stop (if I was a pro which I am not) in 124.2secs and on the 10 kg bike I would arrive in 166.67 secs. Hardly worth worrying about. A spreadsheet does the sums not me.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • northpole
    northpole Posts: 1,499
    2. Fulcrum Racing Zeros - but is this hub cover plate adjustment issue enough to discard them from the shortlist?

    Just to clarify - I've had these wheels about three years now and the adjustment has only been needed twice to the rear wheel (none to the front). The wheels come with the relevant tool. The wheels still run dead true and the hubs/ bearings are in great shape. A bit of a non issue really.

    Peter
  • intheknowcycling.com
    intheknowcycling.com Posts: 75
    thecycleclinic - really enjoying the clinic you are putting on for us. Very instructive. Also agree that 150g-200g is about the point at which a 'cycling enthusiast' (rather than a lean racer) will notice a weight difference between one wheel and the other. What do you think about how the weight is distributed between the hub and the rim? I've often heard that in addition to a climbing wheel typically being lighter than an all-around, with a higher percentage of its total weight in the hub than in a deeper wheel, its makes it 'feel' lighter still.

    Re: you comments on the stiffness of the C24, would think that pedalbasher's leg strength (or body weight as a surrogate) may be a consideration in how stiff the C24's feels to him. Of course many of the pro cyclists are sponsored by Shimano and use the C24s in the climbing stages. Most pros are light (e.g. 68kg and less) and while plenty strong, don't have the massive strength a sprinter does where stiffness really comes into play that much more. I personally found the C24s sufficiently stiff for me even pedaling out of the saddle but I'm light (and not very strong). Maybe pedalbasher could tell us how much he weighs. Thanks, Steve
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    To put into context for me 84kg (clothed) .... power is 341 W

    Yeah, keep dreaming... :lol:
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    pedalbasher wrote:

    My issue is this: I have just bought a Scott Foil with 11-speed Ultegra di2. This renders my old 10-speed Ksyriums redundant
    Any other suggestions?

    In your rush to spend you forgot that your Ksyrium freehub is already capable of taking an 11 speed cassette, by simply removing the spacer you currently fit behind the cassette... then if you want a reason to upgrade anyway, take a hammer and smash them... it's quite therapeutic... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • charlie_potatoes
    charlie_potatoes Posts: 1,921
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    So on a 1km climb (where do we have one of those) I would on a 8kg bike arrive at the mythical tea stop (if I was a pro which I am not) in 124.2secs and on the 10 kg bike I would arrive in 166.67 secs. Hardly worth worrying about. A spreadsheet does the sums not me.

    Hardly worth worrying about??? :shock: :shock: :shock:

    I'd sell a kidney to get that much improvement :D
    "You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul
  • sloppyschleckonds
    sloppyschleckonds Posts: 8,019
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    To put into context for me 84kg (clothed) .... power is 341 W

    Yeah, keep dreaming... :lol:

    5 second power?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • gin0rm0
    gin0rm0 Posts: 40
    pedalbasher wrote:

    My issue is this: I have just bought a Scott Foil with 11-speed Ultegra di2. This renders my old 10-speed Ksyriums redundant (although I will put them on my posh winter bike)…..................With that in mind, I'm basically looking at replacing my 10-speed Elites with a similar 11-speed, alloy clincher, option.

    Did you realise that all Mavic wheels have been 11 speed compatible for years? Just remove the spacers from the freehub.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    SloppySchleckonds wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    To put into context for me 84kg (clothed) .... power is 341 W

    Yeah, keep dreaming... :lol:

    5 second power?

    I've been able to hold a VAM of 1200 mt/h for 3-4 minutes or so, but realistically I am more in the 900-950 range on a good day for real world climbing (which is when there is actually a hill to climb)... in Watts in my case it's probably 260-270 tops.
    As wheels go, they don't seem to have any influence within a sensible range of weight. I would expect a set of SLR tubulars, given they are nearly a Kg lighter than your average set and just as stiff, to give you a Kg worth of time saving, so roughly 1-1.5%.

    The thing is in the south of the country 1% means 1-5 seconds, given the "hills" we've got, so very much nothing
    left the forum March 2023
  • paulmon
    paulmon Posts: 315
    pedalbasher wrote:
    Wiggle has the C24s at £589, plus Quidco cash back. Think it might be a done deal.

    Does anyone know the weight of the C24s? Can't see it on any retailers' sites.

    There you go.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/m00nigan/ ... 171887811/

    I got mine from Evans who price matched Wiggle.
  • pedalbasher
    pedalbasher Posts: 215
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    pedalbasher wrote:

    My issue is this: I have just bought a Scott Foil with 11-speed Ultegra di2. This renders my old 10-speed Ksyriums redundant
    Any other suggestions?

    In your rush to spend you forgot that your Ksyrium freehub is already capable of taking an 11 speed cassette, by simply removing the spacer you currently fit behind the cassette... then if you want a reason to upgrade anyway, take a hammer and smash them... it's quite therapeutic... :wink:

    Ha! Thanks Ugo. This did cross my mind but I told myself it didn't matter whether they are 11-speed compatible anyway, as I will use them on my winter bike (which I'm building from scratch).

    But no rush for now I guess.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I have done climbs like that before ugo. Still that level of fitness does not help me stay with a race pack for long enough as todays race proved every hill brought my rubber band closer to snapping until it went, that what happens when you have have to put out in excess of 500W on climbs and sprint off afterwards to try and keep up with the pack. Race leaders are fit with amazing powers of recovery.

    I personally think the stiffer the wheel the longer it will last. Pro's get there wheels changed regularly so what the pro's ride is of no concern to us. Those that buy c24's and spend £600 need them to last. Given the low spoke count on the rear a heavier rider/powerful one and escpecially ones that rocks the bike alot on climbs is going to fatigue the spokes alot faster. This is where a stiff wheel helps as less flex means less spoke fatigue during every revolution of the wheels. As for weight distribution. I don't even think the weight of the hub even matters (unless to are trying to build a light bike overall for the sake of it). Rim weight is what people fee ans lighter rim will feel light. The lightest rims I have are my old Super Champion Arc de Ciel at 340g each these feel light and you do feel like they spin up well but that does not make me any faster though. Also the lighter the rim the flexible it is meaning a higher spoke count is needed or thicker spokes. A more aerodymanic wheel is always going is always going to be of more benefit than a lighter wheel. It is possible with very expensive carbon rims to have both light an aero but you are really chasing every marignal gain then. Also if you are chasing marginal gains a stiffer wheel loses less energy due to flex. I suspect but I cannot prove as I do not have access to FEM software that a light more flexible wheel will lose you fractionally more time that a slightly heavier stiff wheel and the spokes won't last as long. It is very marginal though. You can of course have light stiff and aero but that will really cost you.

    The c24's are not a bad wheel but ugo's comment sum it up. within a sensible weight range i.e 1400g to 1700g it matters very little indeed.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Slimtim
    Slimtim Posts: 1,042
    Just relax about the wheels. Pretty incidental to climbing. As above, anything 1500-1700 grams will be fine. Key is the way they go down the hill and stop. Have seen many horrors as have-a-go-heros on carbon rims have seen their dreams explode coming downhill. Also, worth getting wheels that can be serviced easily - getting a fancy spoke in the Alps is tricky and cut a great holiday short.
  • thegreatdivide
    thegreatdivide Posts: 5,807
    mamba80 wrote:
    well I got c24 cls and I had zero's and I can feel zero difference in stiffness, whether that is road racing, tts or alpine cols, Rapha used them in a Nat A RR around Brentor and Kirsten House didn't seem to have any issues with flexi wheels.
    the c24s are also lighter by a lot, the carbon/alloy rim is where they save the weight.

    Personally I would go for some handbuilt carbon tubs, given what u want them for.

    Lampre Merida (and previously Lampre ISD) are still using Zero's in races albeit the tub version. They've been on the roof of team cars since they were first released. A sure sign of a quality wheelset. Here's Horner and the team at the start of the Mallorca Challenge this year...

    lampre_mallorca.jpg[/url]
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Didn't say they are not good qualitywheels, my preference is a HB carbon tub for what the op wants them for, long alpine style climbs and descents in Spain.
    My post was about the mis conception that c24s flex, I have not noticed either wheel flexing, used in a variety of conditions, I ve never known anyone snap a spoke either BUT as the c24 has a paper thin rim then CC comments about fatigue wont matter as the wheel will be scrap before that occurs :lol:

    I still think that if the op wants a factory clincher then the c24 is hard to beat
  • jon33
    jon33 Posts: 256
    I'm still struggling to decide on which wheels to go for (hand built or factory)

    Comparing say the DA C24 or Fulcrum Racing Zero against say Pacenti SL23 on DA hubs.

    Both wheels are at a similar price (DA C24 and Fulcrum on sale) is the major difference the ease of repair to the hand built wheels or are they actually of better quality? Stiffness, weight, comfort etc.

    Looking at the factory built wheels many larger riders 85kg+ haven't had any problems with the low spoke count - are the spokes stronger or...?
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The only problem with facotry is if you do damage a rim say good bye to the wheels as a replacement is prohibitively expensive. A Pacenti rim is alot cheaper and that rim is fairly pricey for a rim. Also spokes for DA wheels are not cheap should you have a squirrel run through the wheel and take out a spoke or three.

    There may be many larger rider that run C24's/fulcrum with no issues equally there will be 85kg riders that have no end of problems (although admitly Shimano and Fulcrum wheels are generally reliable). Weight is a factor as well as how you ride.

    Buy the factory option if you just want wheels that are essentially throw away once the rim wears or spokes fatigue. Buy handbuilt if you want wheels that are repairable and can be re rimmed on the same hub time and time again. DA hubs will do daft miles not that C24 owners ever get close to that.

    Also the Pacenti SL23 rim is wider at 24mm than the fulcrum or DA C24 rim. a wider rim gives a wider tyre profile. why would you not want that?

    Shimano and fulcrum wheel spokes are not stronger than the Sapim or DT Swiss that many wheel builders use. The DA wheels for example use a 2.0/1.5/2.0 bladed spoke front and NDS rear, 2.0/1.8/2.0mm bladed DS rear. These are not thick spokes and the 2.0mm butted end is the same as many after market spokes. So either wheel builders over build wheels (quite possible but no bad thing either) or Shimano et al under build them. You decide.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    thegreatdivide wrote:

    Lampre Merida (and previously Lampre ISD) are still using Zero's in races albeit the tub version. They've been on the roof of team cars since they were first released. A sure sign of a quality wheelset. Here's Horner and the team at the start of the Mallorca Challenge this year...

    Shame Lampre hasn't won a race that matters for ages... probably since they started using the Zeros? :wink:
    left the forum March 2023

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