Scottish Independence Referendum

mr_goo

With the impending referendum on Scottish independence looming in September. Should there not also be a referendum in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as to whether we would like Scotland to remain part of the union?
It all seems rather unilateral to me.

Over to you Pina001, my nemesis north of the border.

pinno

hI do not think that even Salmond in his wildest dreams thinks he is going to get a majority Yes vote. I think He is aiming high so that Devo Max will be the ultimate outcome. I also think that full independence is crazy and that Devo Max is the only practical way forward to test the water for a possible independence.
It may be that Devo Max is the way forward and all parties would be happy. So my vote will be tactical, even though not wanting full independence, I will vote YES because it will push through the Devo max option.

ballysmate

The debate has become very fractious and a lot of bad feeling has resulted. Initially I wanted a No vote as my mother is Scottish and I have family up there, but now? Feck em. I hope they get Independence. The SNP want it, then live with it. I can see this being a running sore if there is a sizable minority vote Yes, so get rid now.

nathancom

I am voting Yes. Here's hoping the polls narrow further. Project fear has been ridiculous, why of all places would Scotland be unable to be an 'independent' country when so many others manage it perfectly well across Europe.

arran77

If they think they'll be better off without us then let them go, we'll certainly be better off down here

ballysmate

nathancom wrote:

I am voting Yes. Here's hoping the polls narrow further. Project fear has been ridiculous, why of all places would Scotland be unable to be an 'independent' country when so many others manage it perfectly well across Europe.

Sure you can be Independent. What is risible is the lack of detail that the SNP can give. They have been working 30 years for this moment and are woefully ill prepared. Basic stuff like currency and EU membership.
Anybody who disagrees with Big Eck is either scaremongering or bullying. Congratulations on using another of their buzz words - project fear- well done.

Frankly the people of Scotland (and the rest of us, because it affects us all) deserve better than back of a fag packet stuff to make an informed decision.
If you collectively want to take a punt on Salmond and step into the unknown, then good luck to you. But you should be clear what the ramifications are if Salmond is not the Moses to lead you to the land of milk and honey.

Philly8mt

I'd certainly vote to let em go if given the chance ... I think most would?

random man

I'm in favour of independence. They've already got a parliament. If they get in the sh*t, though, I wonder who'll be expected to bail them out? :roll:

taon24

As I see the main problems are

1) Europe - While a large minority of the UK population want to leave the EU, Scotland wants to stay. The UK government won't care. However the Spanish government will. Several areas of Spain are trying to become independent, including Catalonia, and I doubt the Central Spanish government would be willing to set a precedence of allowing automatic EU membership for newly independent states.

2) Currency - I can see no reason why a currency union should exist with Scotland having equal weighting to the rest of the UK. It represents a fraction of the UK population and therefore I can see no reason why the UK government would agree
Continuing to use the pound would prevent Scotland having control or a say in its currency, to its clear disadvantage

mr_goo

I find that the most insightful comment on Scottish independence has come from Edinburgh born author CJ Sansom.

Below is his view on Scottish Nationalism which is a rather large post script in his book Dominion.

I find it heartbreaking — literally heartbreaking — that my own country, Britain, which was less prone to domestic nationalist extremism between the wars than most, is increasingly falling victim to the ideologies of nationalist parties. The larger ones are not racialist, but they share the belief that national identity is the issue of fundamental, overriding importance in politics; it is the atavistic notion that nationhood can, somehow, allow people to bound free from the oppression — nationalism always defines itself against some enemy “other” — and solve all their problems. UKIP promises a future that will somehow be miraculously golden if Britain simply walks away from the European Union. (To what? To trade with whom?) At least they have the honesty to be clear that they envisage a particular type of political economy, based on that other modern dogma which has failed so often and disastrously, not least in Russia, that “pure” free markets can end economic problems.

Far larger, and more dangerous, is the threat to all of Britain posed by the Scottish National Party, which now sits in power in the devolved government in Edinburgh. As they always have been, the SNP are a party without politics in the conventional sense, willing to tack to the political right (as the 1970s) or the left (as in the 1980s and 1990s) or the center (as today) if they think it will help them win independence. They will promise anything to anyone in their pursuit of power. They are very shrewd political manipulators. In power, they present themselves as competent, progressive democrats (which many are) but behind that, as always, lies the appeal to the mystic glories of independence, which is what the party has always been for. Once ruling an independent state, they will not easily be dislodged. How people who regard themselves as progressive can support a party whose biggest backers include the right-wing Souter family who own Stagecoach, and Rupert Murdoch, escapes me completely. Like all who think they will be able to ride a nationalist tiger, they will find themselves sadly mistaken.

The SNP have no real position on the crucial questions of political economy that affect people’s lives, and never have; their whole basis has always been the old myth that released national consciousness will somehow make all well. They promise a low-regulation, low-corporate-tax regime to please the right, and a strong welfare state to please the left. The wasting asset of oil will not resolve the problem that, as any calculation shows, an independent Scotland will start its life in deficit.

It does not take more than a casual glance at its history to show that the SNP have never had any interest in the practical consequences of independence. They care about the ideal of a nation, not the people who live in it. They ignore or fudge vital questions about the economy and EC membership. In recent times, before the Euro crisis, they cheerfully talked of an independent Scotland joining the euro (they evade the huge issue of whether an independent Scotland, as well possibly as the remainder of the UK, would have to reapply for EU membership, a legal minefield). Before 2008 they spoke of the banking sector, of all things, as the core of an independent Scottish economy, forecasting a Scottish future comparable to that of Ireland and Iceland, shortly before both countries went so catastrophically bust. Now they talk of keeping the pound but following an independent economic policy. (How would that work? Why should the rest of the UK agree effectively to write a blank check? How would that be independence exactly?) But the practical problems of the real world have never been of interest to parties based on nationalism; on the contrary populist politicians like Alex Salmond ask people to turn their backs on real social and economic questions and seek comfort in a romanticized past and shared — often imagined — grievances. National problems are always someone else’s fault. The unscrambling of the British economy and British debt after three hundred years of intimate unity is impossible to calculate using any accounting formula. Arguments are already leading to bitterness and growing national hostility on both sides of the border. That is what nationalism does, and what it feeds off. And all the arguments, all the ill feeling, are tragically unnecessary.

Meanwhile the SNP are trying to manipulate the independence referendum to secure a maximum vote for themselves, by holding it in the anniversary year of the Battle of Bannockburn and lowering the voting age to include sixteen- and seventeen- year- olds, because polls have shown that age group is most likely to vote for them. This smacks dangerously of electoral manipulation by a ruling party to stay in power and increase its power. God knows we have seen enough of that in modern European history. John Gray has recently written that while the dictatorships of the 1930s are unlikely to return, “toxic democracies based on nationalism and xenophobia” could emerge in a number of countries and be in power for long periods.11 Scots are proud, rightly, of seeing their country in a European context. This, today, is the context.

nathancom

So how come you voted and proclaimed support for UKIP 2 days ago (as well as trying to stir up racial hatred against Muslims)?

mr_goo

nathancom wrote:

So how come you voted and proclaimed support for UKIP 2 days ago (as well as trying to stir up racial hatred against Muslims)?

1. I do not agree with an open door policy into the UK nor into any other country. USA and Australia have quite strict entry requirements, we need to do this.

3. Re the Muslim issue. Its not the people, its the religion.
The UK is supposedly a democracy based on fairness for all irrespective of gender or race. A country which has good life values (compared to many others) and is technologically advanced. I just do not believe that Islam even its moderate form sits well in a modern western democracy. All western countries have equal status for males and females and the LGBT community but Islam is to totally opposed to this. However it is welcomed and accepted by government. How can anyone square that circle?
Many of the mosques and Islamic learning centres in UK are funded from Saudi Arabia, a country which practices the very orthodox form of Islam, Wahhabism.

As stated in previous topic I abhor all forms of organised religion. Religion was conceived to control the masses who back in medieval times were by and large educated. I would have hoped that 21st century homosapien would have cast off the shackles of medieval fairy tales.

2. Regarding UKIP. British politics needs shaking up. Hopefully UKIP will do this.

VTech

nathancom wrote:

So how come you voted and proclaimed support for UKIP 2 days ago (as well as trying to stir up racial hatred against Muslims)?

Do you have any idea of the danger you put people in.
I have read online where people have said only minor things and definitely without hatred being in mind and have had their life ruined yet you seem willing to openly suggest someone else shows racial hatred and post it online against your fellow forum member. Your behaviour needs looking at. Not only because your a horrid individual at times but because your willing to go to any lengths you feel fit to make a point wether that means accusing someone of racism or anything else you decide.

I accept people here dislike me, I've no issue with that as I do come across badly at times but you will never see a nasty side to me, that's because I'm not nasty.
Likewise I've argued with others here like mattc59 mr goo ballys mate etc but it's stopped at arguing at varying levels.

Honestly, sort yourself out before you do something you regret.

nathancom

VTech wrote:

nathancom wrote:

So how come you voted and proclaimed support for UKIP 2 days ago (as well as trying to stir up racial hatred against Muslims)?

Do you have any idea of the danger you out people in.
I have read online where people have said only minor things and definitely without hatred being in mind and have had their life ruined yet you seem willing to openly suggest someone else shows racial hatred and post it online against your fellow forum member. Your behaviour needs looking at. Not only because your a horrid individual at times but because your willing to go to any lengths you feel fit to make a point wether that means accusing someone of racism or anything else you decide.

I accept people here dislike me, I've no issue with that as I do come across badly at times but you will never see a nasty side to me, that's because I'm nasty.
Likewise I've argued with others here like mattc59 mr goo ballys mate etc but it's stopped at arguing at varying levels.

Honestly, sort yourself out before you do something you regret.

Why don't you take your sanctimonious idiocy elsewhere. You haven't even read Mr. Goo's various posts against Muslims, you absolute ****.

It appears you are therefore supporting statements such as this - a clear attempt to stir up racial fear against muslims:

Mr Goo wrote:

Although I cannot find the resource for it. Saif Al-Islam (Gaddafi's second son), has in the past quoted that Muslims do not need to invade Europe. They will conquer it through population growth. Or words to the effect. Quite a portentous and worrying quotation, and one that seems to be ringing true.

VTech

Your such a sad person. I honestly feel for you and your family/friends.

My point wasn't what was written by someone else. It was you posting your interpretation which in fact could have been wrong. If the guy was a racist I am sure he would be found out and so he should be but I doubt he is and whatever, an open forum isn't for you to lord yourself as judge jury and executioner.

nathancom

VTech wrote:

Your such a sad person. I honestly feel for you and your family/friends.

My point wasn't what was written by someone else. It was you posting your interpretation which in fact could have been wrong. If the guy was a racist I am sure he would be found out and so he should be but I doubt he is and whatever, an open forum isn't for you to lord yourself as judge jury and executioner.

go argue with yourself in the mirror. not interested

VTech

nathancom wrote:

VTech wrote:

Your such a sad person. I honestly feel for you and your family/friends.

My point wasn't what was written by someone else. It was you posting your interpretation which in fact could have been wrong. If the guy was a racist I am sure he would be found out and so he should be but I doubt he is and whatever, an open forum isn't for you to lord yourself as judge jury and executioner.

go argue with yourself in the mirror. not interested

No mirrors around I'm afraid, just sitting on a yacht watching the F1 whilst feeling rather sad for you trying to show your gonad size whilst sitting behind a keyboard.

nathancom

VTech wrote:

nathancom wrote:

VTech wrote:

Your such a sad person. I honestly feel for you and your family/friends.

My point wasn't what was written by someone else. It was you posting your interpretation which in fact could have been wrong. If the guy was a racist I am sure he would be found out and so he should be but I doubt he is and whatever, an open forum isn't for you to lord yourself as judge jury and executioner.

go argue with yourself in the mirror. not interested

No mirrors around I'm afraid, just sitting on a yacht watching the F1 whilst feeling rather sad for you trying to show your gonad size whilst sitting behind a keyboard.

haha you have no sense of irony do you.

VTech

nathancom wrote:

VTech wrote:

nathancom wrote:

VTech wrote:

Your such a sad person. I honestly feel for you and your family/friends.

My point wasn't what was written by someone else. It was you posting your interpretation which in fact could have been wrong. If the guy was a racist I am sure he would be found out and so he should be but I doubt he is and whatever, an open forum isn't for you to lord yourself as judge jury and executioner.

go argue with yourself in the mirror. not interested

No mirrors around I'm afraid, just sitting on a yacht watching the F1 whilst feeling rather sad for you trying to show your gonad size whilst sitting behind a keyboard.

haha you have no sense of irony do you.

Do you "HONESTLY" think I care about what you think of me ?



Enjoy the view....




Ohh, hang on, your only viewing a keyboard, sorry.

nathancom

VTech wrote:

nathancom wrote:

VTech wrote:

nathancom wrote:

VTech wrote:

Your such a sad person. I honestly feel for you and your family/friends.

My point wasn't what was written by someone else. It was you posting your interpretation which in fact could have been wrong. If the guy was a racist I am sure he would be found out and so he should be but I doubt he is and whatever, an open forum isn't for you to lord yourself as judge jury and executioner.

go argue with yourself in the mirror. not interested

No mirrors around I'm afraid, just sitting on a yacht watching the F1 whilst feeling rather sad for you trying to show your gonad size whilst sitting behind a keyboard.

haha you have no sense of irony do you.

Do you "HONESTLY" think I care about what you think of me ?



Enjoy the view....




Ohh, hang on, your only viewing a keyboard, sorry.

funny if I was in monaco on a yacht I wouldn't be on bike radar. Must be fascinating!

Oh, who was texting your wife btw?

VTech

Not really, I'm working.
Got a lot on at the minute, leave here tomorrow evening then back to Stratford for a few days and then off to Dubai (work again) then back to birmingham and a hop to Edinburgh for the Gumball3000 stopping over in London for a private party with Justin Timberlake and a few others then back on the road to France and finally into Ibiza.

I offered you the chance to join me.

finchy

Look at that! A parakeet!

DeVlaeminck

nathancom wrote:

I am voting Yes. Here's hoping the polls narrow further. Project fear has been ridiculous, why of all places would Scotland be unable to be an 'independent' country when so many others manage it perfectly well across Europe.

Quite ironic given your arguments about how the UK couldn't survive outside of the EU !

nathancom

DeVlaeminck wrote:

nathancom wrote:

I am voting Yes. Here's hoping the polls narrow further. Project fear has been ridiculous, why of all places would Scotland be unable to be an 'independent' country when so many others manage it perfectly well across Europe.

Quite ironic given your arguments about how the UK couldn't survive outside of the EU !

I heard from someone that the SNP are quite keen on the EU?

pinno

My view out of the window is rather tranquil with no stench of screeching tyres, no roar of screaming engines, surgery induced beauty, feather or fluff in an intangeable and un-enviable contrived meaningless existence where you do not know who your friends are, there is little real meaning to life and a cup of coffee costs you £40 a pop. I don't sea lavish yachts, sports cars and the obscenitites of wealth.
All that money - who of them care for the dwindling Elephant, the Tiger, the rainforests, the Rhino, the Lemurs of Madagascar, the pristine remaining jungles of Borneo? Who of them care that Indonesia is being deforested at an horrific rate leaving little or no natural habitat for our genetic cousins the Orangutang? All that money and the silly barstewards have obviously no desire to step outside of their cosseted marble lined world of Mahogany and Gold.
We live in a stunning blue orb, home to a myriad of countless species; birdlife, marine life, coral reefs, snow capped mountains, lakes, lochs, wildlife and the so called 'Privaledged few' think they are living a dream.
Why on earth would someone post a picture of a mass of tarmac, concrete and brick surrounded by the gawping worshippers of tat and think that some may suddenly jump up and say "Oh, you lucky thing...wish I was there".

How about a shot of the Muur de Huy or some alpine pass with the road laid out like a piece of discarded string ? Would that not be a bit more fitting? Cycling puts you in touch with the flora and fauna, the birds and the weather. You're not really a cyclist are you Vtech?

Here's my view:

nathancom

+1

So true, whether it is the crudder deep in the pine forest descending the trails hyper aware of every tree root and knot, every lump of rock and stray branch, or the roadie seeking the relative seclusion of country roads or even when suddenly made aware of death when you see crows attacking road kill. Cycling puts you in contact with some more fundamental layer of life than transient human life and to not see it is to not see the base of our own lives. It is not even necessarily picturesque, mud, stone, blood, bone, the brick and mortar of everything.

pblakeney

Mr. Pinarello001 has neatly summed up the broken dream.

I dream of the day when people wake up enough to witness the vacuousness of the dream that they are chasing.

thegreatdivide

pinarello001 wrote:

My view out of the window is rather tranquil with no stench of screeching tyres, no roar of screaming engines, surgery induced beauty, feather or fluff in an intangeable and un-enviable contrived meaningless existence where you do not know who your friends are, there is little real meaning to life and a cup of coffee costs you £40 a pop. I don't sea lavish yachts, sports cars and the obscenitites of wealth.
All that money - who of them care for the dwindling Elephant, the Tiger, the rainforests, the Rhino, the Lemurs of Madagascar, the pristine remaining jungles of Borneo? Who of them care that Indonesia is being deforested at an horrific rate leaving little or no natural habitat for our genetic cousins the Orangutang? All that money and the silly barstewards have obviously no desire to step outside of their cosseted marble lined world of Mahogany and Gold.
We live in a stunning blue orb, home to a myriad of countless species; birdlife, marine life, coral reefs, snow capped mountains, lakes, lochs, wildlife and the so called 'Privaledged few' think they are living a dream.
Why on earth would someone post a picture of a mass of tarmac, concrete and brick surrounded by the gawping worshippers of tat and think that some may suddenly jump up and say "Oh, you lucky thing...wish I was there".

How about a shot of the Muur de Huy or some alpine pass with the road laid out like a piece of discarded string ? Would that not be a bit more fitting? Cycling puts you in touch with the flora and fauna, the birds and the weather. You're not really a cyclist are you Vtech?

Here's my view:

Post of the year so far. Well done sir.

VTech

In principle you would have a point but my comments were bought from an abusive post made by your fellow forum member towards another. It had hatred at the heart of it and was posted with no other reason than to cause distress.

You can also argue as much as you like for the pros and cons of concrete jungles against planted jungles but as humans we have choices.

A pic of Monaco and especially Grand Prix which was the aim of the picture shows mans achievements, I'm unsure if you or anyone could genuinely argue against achievements of man and rarely is this surpassed than by the motor car. Some of the worlds greatest minds will give an opinion towards the validity of vehicles and travel as one of the greets innovations of mankind, after all, this bought us together faster and to a greater level than any other invention in history.

As for views, yours is great, I won't deny that and I too chose not to live in a city and opted for this.



Thats the view 1000m above my home in Stratford Upon Avon.

pblakeney

I think you may have missed the point Mr. VTech.

Much in the same way that people misquote the saying - Money is the root of all evil.

The full quote is - The pursuit of money is the root of all evil.

Having money is fine. Enjoying spending money is fine. Earning enough to be content is fine. Where it goes wrong is when people lose track of the objective and quality of life is replaced by the pursuit of possessions of fill holes in their lives.
Especially when those chasing the most appear to give up quality of life to achieve possessions in a concrete jungle.

nathancom

Vtech jog on. I was not abusive and the poster in question has been on several long diatribes against Muslims. Replace Muslim for Black or Jew and he would have been banned most likely.

You ask why you should care what I think of you, but turn the question round for a second. Why should anyone care what you think. You then post dull photographs trying to impress god knows who, as if it will somehow intimidate people into thinking you know anything. You are just a know-it-all-know-nothing.

Go back to your little fantasy world where you wear your pants outside your trousers and you fight villains on the internet. You are a tube and you are talking oot yer fanny flaps as they say in Glasgow.