2014 crashes

rick_chasey

This classics season was a ridiculous crash fest.

This Giro is even worse.

Am I imagining it, or are crashes getting a lot more frequent?

And secondly, what's causing it?

jscl

Rick Chasey wrote:

This classics season was a ridiculous crash fest.

This Giro is even worse.

Am I imagining it, or are crashes getting a lot more frequent?

And secondly, what's causing it?

If you ask different riders taking part in these events there's a few different opinions. Some say it's due to an increase in the number of 'newer' less experienced riders to the peloton. Some say it's due to larger numbers of riders. Some blame the crowd. Some blame event organisers for poor route maintenance (whether it be road quality, marshalling of the course, whatever). Each has a strong opinion, but I think it's probably just down to luck (or a mixture of the above reasons I've heard from riders).

RichN95.

It might be worth merging this thread with a similar one (Does Farrar have a point). It's an interesting topic.
My 2 cents: tyres. I have no evidence of this but I think teams are using tyres which more than ever trade off performance for control. This Giro we have seen a lot of bikes just slide from under riders (particualrly Garmin ones)

mm1

Spoke to a rider after Flanders who is in his first season riding in World Tour events, who said that it is only a matter of time before he has a serious stack. He said that the racing is crazily aggressive and higher fitness levels mean that there are more riders left in the finale. I suppose that the ending of the old feudal system of a small number of "bigs" with gregario riding purely in their service is also a factor. Its just more competitive is my guess.

Lanterne_Rogue

RichN95 wrote:

It might be worth merging this thread with a similar one (Does Farrar have a point). It's an interesting topic.
My 2 cents: tyres. I have no evidence of this but I think teams are using tyres which more than ever trade off performance for control. This Giro we have seen a lot of bikes just slide from under riders (particualrly Garmin ones)

Not sure this flies (happy to be proven wrong though) - as one example, teams happily trade off absolute performance for mechanical durability in the cobbled classics, so why would they insist on tyres that easily lose control in a Giro that's already seen a load of water pissing down?

My couple of cents asks 'is there any hard evidence crashes are becoming more common'?

RichN95.

underlayunderlay wrote:

My couple of cents asks 'is there any hard evidence crashes are becoming more common'?

Well that's a good point. Everything seems more common when we start looking for it.

I was just remembering something I read recently (not sure where) were Chris Boardman (I think) was saying that there was a lot of room for improvement in the tyres that most team use (which may give less grip). As I say - I have no evidence of this whatsoever.

Omar Little

Im not sure if 2014 is peculiar but the crashing does seem to be part of longer trend over the last 2 or 3 years. It is IMO partly to do with riding differently - for sprint stages you have a few teams with capable sprint trains teams rather than one dominant one (there hasnt been one since the demise of Highroad) so it becomes a bit more chaotic. The pace going into the final few KM is probably higher than in the past too with more riders on the limit and more prone to be making mistakes.

Also it is a bit of cause and effect - the greater the perceived risk of crashes (whether there are more or not doesnt matter in this respect) then the more teams and riders will want to move up and ride towards the front particularly as they approach key technical sections. Race radios probably make this even worse with the riders having their DS screaming in their ear to move up

RonB

Would've thought that carbon rims might be having more of an effect than tyres, as mentioned on occasion by number of commentators, in wet conditions anyways. But maybe Mr Boardman knows best

So long as every rider's braking system is equal (good or bad) then chances of a pile up should not alter much. I think that this has been touted as a reason for avoiding a piecemeal approach to the use of disk brake systems.

Lanterne_Rogue

Omar Little wrote:

Also it is a bit of cause and effect - the greater the perceived risk of crashes (whether there are more or not doesnt matter in this respect) then the more teams and riders will want to move up and ride towards the front

Good point that - I remember this being talked about a lot in the year Wiggins crashed out of the TdF as a potential cause of the spate of crashes in that race.

I can also imagine that between carbon rims, newer tyre designs, different quality road surfaces (no idea if this is a genuine thing, but let's throw it out there) and a perception that riders are taking more risks or trying to mix it up with the big boys without serving an apprenticeship, there might be more ways for things to go wrong.

Rich is probably right to point to the number of riders wiping out in fairly innocuous (but very wet) circumstances in the Giro though - that is a little odd.

milton50

Omar Little wrote:

Also it is a bit of cause and effect - the greater the perceived risk of crashes (whether there are more or not doesnt matter in this respect) then the more teams and riders will want to move up and ride towards the front particularly as they approach key technical sections. Race radios probably make this even worse with the riders having their DS screaming in their ear to move up

Yes, this is certainly a factor. The speed and aggression with which riders try and reach the front of the race going into a technical part of the course is making a crash something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The higher the speed and anxiety means a crash is more likely, so next time round the riders try even harder to get to the front and so on.

I've no evidence that this wasn't the case 20-30 years ago but that's the impression I get.

TheBigBean

I don't think there are any more crashes. You lot are just imaginging it.

inseine

Before people critize a particular rider, or call them lightweights or that they have 'no respect' for them (you know who you are), they should look at yesterdays Giro crash photos and remember these guys do this for our 'entertainment'. I've nothing but the greatest admiration for all of of them. Hard sport.

Sjaak

TheBigBean wrote:

I don't think there are any more crashes. You lot are just imaginging it.

We want to see data, and a bar graph

tuneskyline

I knocked this one up and it really is,,, err thingy for the crash stuff

specialgueststar

tuneskyline wrote:

I knocked this one up and it really is,,, err thingy for the crash stuff

well it is obvious then - the UCI has changed where feed zones are placed affecting speed in the last 25km and this is combined with DS's presssure to get WT points even for lesser places.

I did some correlations just to be sure and the bar graph data holds up ..... see

The_Boy

One thing that always occurs to me when watching races these days is how the GC riders seem to have most of their teams around them 'protecting' them. I'm too lazy to actually trawl through footage of old races and ty and make some sort of accurate comparison, but I seem to remember that back in the day the GC guys would only have one, maybe two, of their lieutenants by them.

Tbh though, even if we assume crashes actually *have* increased in frequency rather than confirmation bias giving that impression, there will be myriad unrelated reasons contributing so it's not like their is going to be a magic bullet to fix it.

tuneskyline

Nice work special guest star I think that is everything covered. I am over at Cern at the minute working on upgrading the large hadron collider If you fancy a job give us a call . We need the best.

mechanism

tuneskyline wrote:

Nice work, I think that is everything covered. I am over at Cern at the minute working on upgrading the large hadron collider If you fancy a job give us a call . We need the best.

A few pro cyclists could help with those collisions.

Richmond Racer

Milton50 wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

Also it is a bit of cause and effect - the greater the perceived risk of crashes (whether there are more or not doesnt matter in this respect) then the more teams and riders will want to move up and ride towards the front particularly as they approach key technical sections. Race radios probably make this even worse with the riders having their DS screaming in their ear to move up

Yes, this is certainly a factor. The speed and aggression with which riders try and reach the front of the race going into a technical part of the course is making a crash something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The higher the speed and anxiety means a crash is more likely, so next time round the riders try even harder to get to the front and so on.

I've no evidence that this wasn't the case 20-30 years ago but that's the impression I get.

20-30 years ago, you has les patrons, who would say each day whether they'd race hard or not. Not any more.

I always think of Sean Yates description of the first couple of hours of a race, the peloton rolling along 'eating ice creams', till the sound of the TV helicoptor, and then it'd be 'ok, fellas, time to put the show on' - and start racing.

You also have a much higher level of skils and ability right across the peloton. Everyone is at a very high level. Makes a big difference - much larger groups are making it to the finish etc.

tailwindhome

Is the thread title a prediction?

tuneskyline

I think if we explore the effect of speeding particles leading up to a speed of light impact then you will find that these impacts are caused by what we call the Farrar factor. It's a form of chaos theory that we have yet to understand.

RichN95.

Mechanism wrote:

tuneskyline wrote:

Nice work, I think that is everything covered. I am over at Cern at the minute working on upgrading the large hadron collider If you fancy a job give us a call . We need the best.

A few pro cyclists could help with those collisions.

Maybe what is happening is scientists are colliding cyclists into each other in an attempt to prove the existance of Boasson Hagen

The_Boy

hat, sir.

TheBigBean

It's almost like there were no crashes before. If I had a photo archive like frenchfighter, I'd do a quick montage that included some of the famous ones like Rolf Sørensen in yellow.

tuneskyline

Man pedal 2 wheel balance machine, man he lose balance he fall off, many man around him also fall off. Best not to fall off.

Pross

The sprinters want to be near the front with their teams, the GC contenders want to be at the front with their teams so therefore everyone except the break are battling to be in the first 20 odd riders. They crash, get doped up on Tramadol to get through the pain the next day when everyone is doing the same but are high as kites at the same time. Vicious circle.

dish_dash

Pross wrote:

The sprinters want to be near the front with their teams, the GC contenders want to be at the front with their teams so therefore everyone except the break are battling to be in the first 20 odd riders. They crash, get doped up on Tramadol to get through the pain the next day when everyone is doing the same but are high as kites at the same time. Vicious circle.

Do we also not have greater coverage via digital media - Twitter but fed by (more?) photographers who are able to quickly upload images. Plus the inevitable outrage cycle via the internets...

mm1

TheBigBean wrote:

It's almost like there were no crashes before. If I had a photo archive like frenchfighter, I'd do a quick montage that included some of the famous ones like Rolf Sørensen in yellow.

Sorensen was also involved in a horrible finishing sprint crash in the Giro, I have wracked my addled brains (such as they are) but honestly cannot remember which year?

Vino'sGhost

when there was more ped use there were less crashes FACT. drugs save careers.

Respect

rick_chasey

It's more the quantity of crashes.

There are always crashes, but the quantity seems so relentless this classics season and Giro.

All this chat around 'no patrons, no cippo trains' etc doesn't wash with me. That was a long time ago. That doesn't explain this peak in 2014.

DeVlaeminck

There are so many things that might be causing more crashes - that's even if we accept there are more - that it's going to be pretty much impossible to pin it down.

Certainly carbon rims and stiff deep section wheels can't help, possibly very aggressive positions on the bike contribute, but then it could be something like risk compensation due to wearing helmets or changes to roads making town centre finishes more dangerous.

Watching it I do wonder how more of them don't lose their bottle though - it's easy to think oh it's just another crash but once you've had a couple of bad ones or seen others have them it can stick in your mind.