Power Meter Software for Stages

supermurph09

Hi

What are the preferred software packages for analysing power meter data? The few I know are Training Peaks and Golden Cheetah, anything else worth considering?

Thanks

Stalin

Supermurph09 wrote:

Hi

What are the preferred software packages for analysing power meter data? The few I know are Training Peaks and Golden Cheetah, anything else worth considering?

Thanks

You might consider measuring the power of both your legs. Garbage in garbage out. Garbage in gospel out. No matter what software you use.

wavefront

Not really answering your question (who does on forums!!) but Golden Cheetah is very good. Good enough for me not to even want to try training peaks. When used with strava it's a good combination. I find strava good for logging hours in a nice graphical way, and you can access and check routes you've done on it easily (I find CG doesn't have this ability) I then use GC for everything else, most usually to look at my performance on intervals, log my TSS and look for trends ( weakness or improvements!). I find it's also nice to see how far I've come!

Can't see what else you'd need from this pairing but interested in others responses!

meanredspider

Stalin wrote:

Supermurph09 wrote:

Hi

What are the preferred software packages for analysing power meter data? The few I know are Training Peaks and Golden Cheetah, anything else worth considering?

Thanks

You might consider measuring the power of both your legs. Garbage in garbage out. Garbage in gospel out. No matter what software you use.

Trolling if ever I saw it...

herzog

Golden Cheetah - free and does pretty much everything Training Peaks software does.

moscowflyer

Herzog wrote:

Golden Cheetah - free and does pretty much everything Training Peaks software does.

Seconded. The only reason I went for TP is that I also run a fair bit, but GC is cycling only. It's very good though.

Tom Dean

+1 for Golden Cheetah

supermurph09

thanks for the replies, I'll install GC and see how I get on.

NUFCrichard

Stalin wrote:

Supermurph09 wrote:

Hi

What are the preferred software packages for analysing power meter data? The few I know are Training Peaks and Golden Cheetah, anything else worth considering?

Thanks

You might consider measuring the power of both your legs. Garbage in garbage out. Garbage in gospel out. No matter what software you use.

If DCrainmaker says it is good enough, that is good enough for me!

Mr_K_Dilkington

Stalin wrote:

Supermurph09 wrote:

Hi

What are the preferred software packages for analysing power meter data? The few I know are Training Peaks and Golden Cheetah, anything else worth considering?

Thanks

You might consider measuring the power of both your legs. Garbage in garbage out. Garbage in gospel out. No matter what software you use.

You know something Team Sky don't I presume?

Stalin

Mr_K_Dilkington wrote:

Stalin wrote:

Supermurph09 wrote:

Hi

What are the preferred software packages for analysing power meter data? The few I know are Training Peaks and Golden Cheetah, anything else worth considering?

Thanks

You might consider measuring the power of both your legs. Garbage in garbage out. Garbage in gospel out. No matter what software you use.

You know something Team Sky don't I presume?

I know something Team Sky know. Fan boys will believe anything.

RChung

Mr_K_Dilkington wrote:

You know something Team Sky don't I presume?

Probably not, but Team Sky probably knows things that you don't.

Stalin

RChung wrote:

Mr_K_Dilkington wrote:

You know something Team Sky don't I presume?

Probably not, but Team Sky probably knows things that you don't.

Sky know there is a lot more to training than measuring power. Their use of Stages might indicate the importance they attach to accurate power measurement.

RChung

Stalin wrote:

RChung wrote:

Mr_K_Dilkington wrote:

You know something Team Sky don't I presume?

Probably not, but Team Sky probably knows things that you don't.

Sky know there is a lot more to training than measuring power. Their use of Stages might indicate the importance they attach to accurate power measurement.

Exactly. A team like Sky has different needs and resources than most of us so their equipment decisions (whether for bikes, tires, wheels, training equipment, or power meters) aren't always appropriate for us.

meanredspider

Stalin wrote:

RChung wrote:

Mr_K_Dilkington wrote:

You know something Team Sky don't I presume?

Probably not, but Team Sky probably knows things that you don't.

Sky know there is a lot more to training than measuring power. Their use of Stages might indicate the importance they attach to accurate power measurement.

Even the little I know about Team Sky (again, from the Sean Yates autobiography), shows that they attach quite a lot of importance to power measurement. In fact, they seem to have an analyst who spends a fair bit of time looking at power outputs.

Again, though (and I'd cross-reference the leg strength thread), IF we're agreeing that power is mostly to do with the aerobic system, then whether you measure left leg or right leg or both legs, whilst there may be small differences in the absolute measurements, it's the relative differences you're looking for. If you want to recalibrate, use a system that measures both legs then correct the Stages out for leg imbalance. I can't see why that matters though (least of all for us amateurs who just like to see we're making progress).

RChung

meanredspider wrote:

Even the little I know about Team Sky (again, from the Sean Yates autobiography), shows that they attach quite a lot of importance to power measurement. In fact, they seem to have an analyst who spends a fair bit of time looking at power outputs.

Exactly. They have a different level of resources, including someone whose job it is to analyze the data and years of data from riders using the SRM. Having those resources means that they can put their Stages data into a context that most of us can't -- unless you also have years of SRM data and the time and knowledge to analyze your data in the same way.

meanredspider

RChung wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Even the little I know about Team Sky (again, from the Sean Yates autobiography), shows that they attach quite a lot of importance to power measurement. In fact, they seem to have an analyst who spends a fair bit of time looking at power outputs.

Exactly. They have a different level of resources, including someone whose job it is to analyze the data and years of data from riders using the SRM. Having those resources means that they can put their Stages data into a context that most of us can't -- unless you also have years of SRM data and the time and knowledge to analyze your data in the same way.

That's fine - because most of us are only really interested in ourselves. I finished La Chouffe Classic yesterday and saw that I'd improved my 20 min avg power output - I was very happy. I also had a pretty accurate estimation of the calories I'd burned, my TSS, my normalised power etc and I was able to compare that ride to other rides I'd done this year. I'm not looking at the guy trying to break away and estimating his chances of success (in the way that Team Sky might). It's a tool that tells me just a bit more about how I'm doing and helps me do better. I confidently predict that in 5-8 years most riders who today ride with GPS and HRM will also ride with power too. I don't care whether that's a good thing or not.

RChung

meanredspider wrote:

I confidently predict that in 5-8 years most riders who today ride with GPS and HRM will also ride with power too.

In 5-8 years? I confidently predict that most riders who today ride with GPS and HRM won't.

meanredspider

RChung wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I confidently predict that in 5-8 years most riders who today ride with GPS and HRM will also ride with power too.

In 5-8 years? I confidently predict that most riders who today ride with GPS and HRM won't.

It's slightly different but given that it is only about 5 years since the iPad came out and lots of people were saying then that it's a waste of space and never catch on (where are you now?) and given the sharp increase in the number of affordable power meters - I feel pretty confident. 8 years ago, GPS was pretty rare on bikes now it's nearer the norm. I might be a year or two out but not much more I think.

Stalin

meanredspider wrote:

RChung wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Even the little I know about Team Sky (again, from the Sean Yates autobiography), shows that they attach quite a lot of importance to power measurement. In fact, they seem to have an analyst who spends a fair bit of time looking at power outputs.

Exactly. They have a different level of resources, including someone whose job it is to analyze the data and years of data from riders using the SRM. Having those resources means that they can put their Stages data into a context that most of us can't -- unless you also have years of SRM data and the time and knowledge to analyze your data in the same way.

That's fine - because most of us are only really interested in ourselves. I finished La Chouffe Classic yesterday and saw that I'd improved my 20 min avg power output - I was very happy. I also had a pretty accurate estimation of the calories I'd burned, my TSS, my normalised power etc and I was able to compare that ride to other rides I'd done this year. I'm not looking at the guy trying to break away and estimating his chances of success (in the way that Team Sky might). It's a tool that tells me just a bit more about how I'm doing and helps me do better. I confidently predict that in 5-8 years most riders who today ride with GPS and HRM will also ride with power too. I don't care whether that's a good thing or not.

I think the valid point RChung is making, which you miss, is that Sky have the previous data and expertise and other equipment to ensure they can use Stages correctly. They already know their riders imbalances, and how those imbalances change at different power outputs and different levels of fatigue. If you don't know your imbalance profile you could be seriously mislead by the data from only the left leg.

I'm sure in time power meters will be just as integral to the bike as Campagnolo or Shimano gears are today.

meanredspider

Nope - I didn't miss the point.

The point I made is that (as I think you amongst others have argued) is that leg strength is of minor importance (and, as I understand it, impossible to "fix" at this time - at least I've seen nothing) so what am I going to do with the information? All I'm interested in is am I getting better or worse or not changing. I can then adapt my riding to suit. If what I'm mostly working on is my aerobic system, that will affect both legs broadly equally (at least within the boundaries of other error). So if my left leg is getting better, I expect my whole is getting better (the same premise as Sky will be working on with their current data more or less). Same goes for in- ride data. I know that if the FTP of my left leg measurement is X, I can work against a percentage of that. It's good enough - I'm not a pro and my mortgage doesn't depend on it. What's the small percentage difference (if there is even one) going to tell me anyway?

Stalin

meanredspider wrote:

Nope - I didn't miss the point.

The point I made is that (as I think you amongst others have argued) is that leg strength is of minor importance (and, as I understand it, impossible to "fix" at this time - at least I've seen nothing) so what am I going to do with the information? All I'm interested in is am I getting better or worse or not changing. I can then adapt my riding to suit. If what I'm mostly working on is my aerobic system, that will affect both legs broadly equally (at least within the boundaries of other error). So if my left leg is getting better, I expect my whole is getting better (the same premise as Sky will be working on with their current data more or less). Same goes for in- ride data. I know that if the FTP of my left leg measurement is X, I can work against a percentage of that. It's good enough - I'm not a pro and my mortgage doesn't depend on it. What's the small percentage difference (if there is even one) going to tell me anyway?

Yes I see your point. But if you take me for example. At maximum 20 minute power I'm near enough 50 / 50. But at FTP I'm usually left leg 54/53 right leg 46/47. So Stages might read 300 watts average over 20 minutes full on, but at FTP of 280 watts Stages could measure as high as 302 watts because it is doubling the power of the left leg. This is clearly daft. Now that imbalance is the same using Wattbike, Look Keo Power Pedals and Garmin Vector. At lower powers the imbalance can be as severe as left 60 and right 40.

Obviously my imbalance is severe.

Alex might be able to explain what is going on and why. I have had severe injuries to my right knee and hip. It seems my brain protects the right leg and only allows it to do its fair share when the chips are down.

Also you need accuracy to do aero testing, I can't see how you can use Stages for that unless you can allow for any left right imbalance.

slowbike

Stalin wrote:

Yes I see your point. But if you take me for example. At maximum 20 minute power I'm near enough 50 / 50. But at FTP I'm usually left leg 54/53 right leg 46/47. So Stages might read 300 watts average over 20 minutes full on, but at FTP of 280 watts Stages could measure as high as 302 watts because it is doubling the power of the left leg. This is clearly daft. Now that imbalance is the same using Wattbike, Look Keo Power Pedals and Garmin Vector. At lower powers the imbalance can be as severe as left 60 and right 40.

Obviously my imbalance is severe.

Alex might be able to explain what is going on and why. I have had severe injuries to my right knee and hip. It seems my brain protects the right leg and only allows it to do its fair share when the chips are down.

Also you need accuracy to do aero testing, I can't see how you can use Stages for that unless you can allow for any left right imbalance.

If you have a significant imbalance then perhaps the stages isn't for you - but I would consider the majority of us to be about equal, give or take - and the numbers we're interested in are not absolute (although some people will take it as such), we need to look at the change in numbers, the relativity - as this is what shows improvement or not.

Even with the severe imbalance, you could make use of Stages data, but it needs to be read with the prior knowledge of the imbalance. And also, it depends what you're trying to achieve. If you're attempting to improve the power of your right leg and measure it then any single output power device isn't going to give you the granular data required.

Stalin

Slowbike wrote:

Stalin wrote:

Yes I see your point. But if you take me for example. At maximum 20 minute power I'm near enough 50 / 50. But at FTP I'm usually left leg 54/53 right leg 46/47. So Stages might read 300 watts average over 20 minutes full on, but at FTP of 280 watts Stages could measure as high as 302 watts because it is doubling the power of the left leg. This is clearly daft. Now that imbalance is the same using Wattbike, Look Keo Power Pedals and Garmin Vector. At lower powers the imbalance can be as severe as left 60 and right 40.

Obviously my imbalance is severe.

Alex might be able to explain what is going on and why. I have had severe injuries to my right knee and hip. It seems my brain protects the right leg and only allows it to do its fair share when the chips are down.

Also you need accuracy to do aero testing, I can't see how you can use Stages for that unless you can allow for any left right imbalance.

If you have a significant imbalance then perhaps the stages isn't for you - but I would consider the majority of us to be about equal, give or take - and the numbers we're interested in are not absolute (although some people will take it as such), we need to look at the change in numbers, the relativity - as this is what shows improvement or not.

Even with the severe imbalance, you could make use of Stages data, but it needs to be read with the prior knowledge of the imbalance. And also, it depends what you're trying to achieve. If you're attempting to improve the power of your right leg and measure it then any single output power device isn't going to give you the granular data required.

The point is that many people are not near enough 50/50 and if you only use Stages you would never even know that you have an imbalance.

slowbike

Stalin wrote:

The point is that many people are not near enough 50/50 and if you only use Stages you would never even know that you have an imbalance.

But does it matter if you do? If all you're after is the relative +/- and lets face it, that's the important bit - then it's all you need.

I happen to have had a try on a wattbike and there was no obvious major imbalance. I would think that anyone serious about power meters would know if they have a significant imbalance or not and what it means to them. Anyone not serious about power meters but wants to get one - then it doesn't matter does it ...

meanredspider

For sure, if you have a significant imbalance (especially a weak left leg) then Stages probably isn't for you. My son, following his cancer treatment, has some missing muscle, some nerve damage and some muscle atrophy in his left leg. It wouldn't make much sense for him to use the Stages unless he was specifically looking at targeting his damaged leg in some controlled manner.

For most of us, even with say a 45:55 balance, it really doesn't matter. We aren't comparing our figures with anyone than ourselves (especially as I'm sure you may as well ask people to post their real willy size as post their real power). I'm pleased to be seeing my 20 min average creeping up (especially as I see my average HR trending down). I also know what (left leg) power I can sustain over a century, 2 hours, 1 hour etc. that's really useful.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing against two leg power like Vector (even Power2Max only estimates balance based upon crank position) just I don't think it's something I need especially when there's some drawbacks (cost, flexibility, cleat type etc) that work less well for me than Stages.

Stalin

Imbalance changes with power, fatigue, cadence etc. it is not fixed. Some days my imbalance is greater than others. So with me Stages would tend to overestimate power when I'm fatigued. Sometimes it would show an improvement where in fact there is just more left leg power but less overall power.

That said, I don't dispute Stages is a viable option for anyone without a serious imbalance or someone with a static imbalance. The problems set in when some days the imbalance is much greater than other days or when the imbalance has a tendency to kick in and or kick out unpredictably.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Stalin wrote:

Now that imbalance is the same using Wattbike, Look Keo Power Pedals and Garmin Vector. At lower powers the imbalance can be as severe as left 60 and right 40.

Obviously my imbalance is severe.

Alex might be able to explain what is going on and why.

I doubt it, but your injury has something to do with it presumably.

What I find interesting though is that you report seeing the same left/right values from a Wattbike and with independent power measurement pedals. If that's accurate, then it might point to something, but it might also just be coincidence.

The reason why I say that is the Wattbike measures something quite different to the left-right numbers from independent pedal force measurement. i.e. they are not the same measurement.

Keep in mind that independent pedal measurement can also suffer from some variances in left and right side accuracy. They are two power meters, not one.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Slowbike wrote:

Stalin wrote:

The point is that many people are not near enough 50/50 and if you only use Stages you would never even know that you have an imbalance.

But does it matter if you do? If all you're after is the relative +/- and lets face it, that's the important bit - then it's all you need.

I happen to have had a try on a wattbike and there was no obvious major imbalance. I would think that anyone serious about power meters would know if they have a significant imbalance or not and what it means to them. Anyone not serious about power meters but wants to get one - then it doesn't matter does it ...

I've said before, whether a Stages makes sense for any individual depends on what applications they intend to use the data for. For many people it will be perfectly adequate as the demands they place on data quality isn't all that high.

Stalin

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Stalin wrote:

Now that imbalance is the same using Wattbike, Look Keo Power Pedals and Garmin Vector. At lower powers the imbalance can be as severe as left 60 and right 40.

Obviously my imbalance is severe.

Alex might be able to explain what is going on and why.

I doubt it, but your injury has something to do with it presumably.

What I find interesting though is that you report seeing the same left/right values from a Wattbike and with independent power measurement pedals. If that's accurate, then it might point to something, but it might also just be coincidence.

The reason why I say that is the Wattbike measures something quite different to the left-right numbers from independent pedal force measurement. i.e. they are not the same measurement.

Keep in mind that independent pedal measurement can also suffer from some variances in left and right side accuracy. They are two power meters, not one.

Alex, the imbalance was first seen on Look Keo. I did not believe it, in fact, as I'm right footed and my right leg is my front fencing leg my right leg is bigger than the left as measured round the thigh and calf areas. This is normal in a fencer. I told the Keo people that they had the wires crossed.

Later the same day I had a go on Garmin Vector. I was astonished to see the same thing.

Then a few minutes later I used a Wattbike. Same imbalance.

So far I have seen the same sort of imbalance on at least 5 different sets of Look Keo and 2 sets of Garmin Vector and 4 Wattbikes.