Shimano 105 brake callipers or alternative?
Comments
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Gozzy wrote:lesfirth wrote:
This is your opinion to which you are quite rightly entitled. However in my opinion it is not a" technical" answer to my question. I am after technical reasons.
Have you tried emailing shimano or campagnolo or sram to see what they have to say, instead of asking people who aren't scientists?
What makes you think you'll get scientists at Campag, Sram or Shimano? You'll just get a load of PR people who will feed you the same bollox as we talk here times 10!Faster than a tent.......0 -
That may be true, but they might throw in some technical reason or two. You never know. Stanger things have happened.0
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Rolf F wrote:small_bloke wrote:So my test proves 105 brakes are better than cheap Tektro callipers. All other things being equal (levers, wheel rims, rider weight etc.)
Afraid it doesn't prove anything. For proof you need data and controlled conditions and you haven't provided either.
The problem is, that all things being equal aside from the calipers (presume you also include amongst that the pad clearance from the rims as that is about the only variable I can see that might explain the facts as you describe them), as you said, it is hard to see any physical explanation for what you describe.
I wasn't out to prove anything or to provide some scientific explanation, only to try and see what happens when you fit better quality calipers such as 105 compared to budget calipers. I've heard this makes a difference so I tried it for myself. For me it worked. By budget bike feels completely different and I love the confidence it provides when braking. £45 will be well spent to avoid an accident.
I'll send you the old calipers and you can try the difference yourself. You will see what I mean instantly.
I suspect theres a difference in the curve or length of the caliper arms which makes the difference but I haven't analysed very carefully, nor do I really care as long as it works better. The brake cables seem to sit in a slightly different position after the swap, now seem too long, which probably suggests theirs a shape difference between the two calipers.0 -
Would 105 calipers give a noticeable braking improvement over sora calipers when using sora levers?0
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105 brakes stop you quicker than Tiagra or Sora- that is as scientific as it needs to be.
To all those skinflints out there: throw your Tektro/unbranded/poverty spec calipers in the bin where they belong.
Cheap brakes= sh*t brakes.
Course, if you go everywhere at touring pace and avoid going down steep hills you may never reach speeds high enough to understand why this is so.0 -
Technically, that's true. But it's not a technical answer.0
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What we need is a Tour magazine group of brakes - anyone know if they've ever done one?0
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Semantik wrote:105 brakes stop you quicker than Tiagra or Sora- that is as scientific as it needs to be.
No, it isn't! Unless you are saying it isn't possible to exert the same force on a rim with Tiagra as with 105 and that in some way the friction imparted by a Tiagra caliper with the same pads as a 105 caliper is not as effective at slowing the bike then they don't stop you any quicker. And if you are saying that, then you really do need to explain how this is happening because I don't think that makes any sense.
We had a long thread a while ago which came up with pretty convincing explanations of why it didn't even strictly matter if the metal of the calipers was bendy - the same force could still be applied (the main difference is that if the set up is really noodly you end up having to use a really big lever movement which does make effective braking harder - but that's a slightly separate issue as I don't believe that Tiagra/Sora calipers are particularly bendy).
The overall mechanical leverage of the system is a balance between modulation and plain stopping ability and it is probably quite easy to make subtle changes that give a very different feel to the stopping performance but unless you actually measure what the impact of that is on stopping distances then all you are doing is perceiving differences that might not actually be there.
Wouldn't surprise me if Shimano just deliberately tweak the lever lengths very slightly between models to make them feel different............Faster than a tent.......0 -
lesfirth wrote:Do you think Shimano would admit that sora calpiers brake as good as dura ace?
Why wouldn't they? Otherwise how could they justify the price difference?0 -
bought a trek last year and the brakes were ropey to say the least. bought some 105 ones in Merlins sale late last year for £45 and they have been great. still have basic pads on but I'd wished I has Swiss Stops on this morning in the torrential rain!!! shop around and I'm sure you'll find a bargainCube Cross 2016
Willier GTR 20140 -
Rolf F wrote:Semantik wrote:105 brakes stop you quicker than Tiagra or Sora- that is as scientific as it needs to be.
No, it isn't! Unless you are saying it isn't possible to exert the same force on a rim with Tiagra as with 105 and that in some way the friction imparted by a Tiagra caliper with the same pads as a 105 caliper is not as effective at slowing the bike then they don't stop you any quicker. And if you are saying that, then you really do need to explain how this is happening because I don't think that makes any sense.
We had a long thread a while ago which came up with pretty convincing explanations of why it didn't even strictly matter if the metal of the calipers was bendy - the same force could still be applied (the main difference is that if the set up is really noodly you end up having to use a really big lever movement which does make effective braking harder - but that's a slightly separate issue as I don't believe that Tiagra/Sora calipers are particularly bendy).
The overall mechanical leverage of the system is a balance between modulation and plain stopping ability and it is probably quite easy to make subtle changes that give a very different feel to the stopping performance but unless you actually measure what the impact of that is on stopping distances then all you are doing is perceiving differences that might not actually be there.
Wouldn't surprise me if Shimano just deliberately tweak the lever lengths very slightly between models to make them feel different............
Rolf, you truly are the Stephen Hawking of Bikeradar- for you, every nut or bolt on a bicycle has its own quantum theory of physics which takes a whole chapter to explain to the ignorant masses, at the end of which most of us still don't understand what you're saying.
I am not upset if you disagree with my own simplistic hypothesis on the relative performance of different brake calipers. I just know that better ones are better.
And it seems others agree with me.0 -
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sram ... -prod51842
Thoose SRAM apex calipers look goods says they come with some kind of swiss top pads also.
I live silver bits though & they are black :evil:0 -
You've got me thinking now. My Giant Defy 1 came with mostly 105 kit, but not the brakes which are tektra. Compared to my old boardman hybrid discs the brakes are rubbish. But I'm not sure if I upgrade to 105's there will be much difference. (The ocd in me wants to change them just to have the 105 branding on. The miser doesn't)
any thoughts?
Mike0 -
Yeah I had Tektro on my Trek 2.1 and I noticed a massive improvement swapping them out for 105 calipers, I'd say do it!0
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Semantik wrote:Rolf, you truly are the Stephen Hawking of Bikeradar- for you, every nut or bolt on a bicycle has its own quantum theory of physics which takes a whole chapter to explain to the ignorant masses, at the end of which most of us still don't understand what you're saying.
I am not upset if you disagree with my own simplistic hypothesis on the relative performance of different brake calipers. I just know that better ones are better.
And it seems others agree with me.
Lol - I can assure you it does my head in as well and debate is good because it makes you think whether or not you end up changing your mind! I'm actually pretty crap at physics - Stephen Hawking would be appalled at your comparison! Data and what it means and what you can do with it is my thing. All the gist of it is that a caliper is just like a see saw - there's a beam and a pivot and the only difference here is that the pivot isn't in the middle. The longer the lever on your end, the more force you exert but the less distance the other end moves . The shorter the lever on your end, the less force you exert but the bigger the movement on the block end.
The more movement at pad end, the quicker and more grabbier the brakes feel (dual pivot brakes exaggerate this moving the pivot much nearer to the pads - so you increase the braking force at the expense of fine control) - the more movement at your end the slower the movement and the more controlled the brakes feel (hence why Campag commonly use dual pivot at the front and single pivot at the rear). But this stuff (as I understand it) doesn't actually affect the braking performance - that is just down to the friction between the pads and the rims. This means that the caliper design largely doesn't actually matter very much as far as stopping distances go though two different sets of brakes might give that impression.
I hope this is vaguely makes sense and apologies for another chapter! My only angle is I get a bit irritated by manufacturers making stuff up to hype the latest product when there is nothing real to back it up. There's nothing to a caliper and not much you can to do improve it other than make sure it doesn't flex, provide it with good bearings and make it look nice. All the leverage stuff was optimised decades ago (dual pivots excepted).Faster than a tent.......0 -
Rolf F wrote:Semantik wrote:Rolf, you truly are the Stephen Hawking of Bikeradar- for you, every nut or bolt on a bicycle has its own quantum theory of physics which takes a whole chapter to explain to the ignorant masses, at the end of which most of us still don't understand what you're saying.
I am not upset if you disagree with my own simplistic hypothesis on the relative performance of different brake calipers. I just know that better ones are better.
And it seems others agree with me.
Lol - I can assure you it does my head in as well and debate is good because it makes you think whether or not you end up changing your mind! I'm actually pretty crap at physics - Stephen Hawking would be appalled at your comparison! Data and what it means and what you can do with it is my thing. All the gist of it is that a caliper is just like a see saw - there's a beam and a pivot and the only difference here is that the pivot isn't in the middle. The longer the lever on your end, the more force you exert but the less distance the other end moves . The shorter the lever on your end, the less force you exert but the bigger the movement on the block end.
The more movement at pad end, the quicker and more grabbier the brakes feel (dual pivot brakes exaggerate this moving the pivot much nearer to the pads - so you increase the braking force at the expense of fine control) - the more movement at your end the slower the movement and the more controlled the brakes feel (hence why Campag commonly use dual pivot at the front and single pivot at the rear). But this stuff (as I understand it) doesn't actually affect the braking performance - that is just down to the friction between the pads and the rims. This means that the caliper design largely doesn't actually matter very much as far as stopping distances go though two different sets of brakes might give that impression.
I hope this is vaguely makes sense and apologies for another chapter! My only angle is I get a bit irritated by manufacturers making stuff up to hype the latest product when there is nothing real to back it up. There's nothing to a caliper and not much you can to do improve it other than make sure it doesn't flex, provide it with good bearings and make it look nice. All the leverage stuff was optimised decades ago (dual pivots excepted).
Rolf I could not agree with you more.
If quantum theory is level 100 science this is level 2 applied mechanics. It really is simple.
If this topic was about French literature I would not contribute because on that subject I am one of the ignorant masses. I would keep my opinions to myself. I know I know nothing about it. However on this forum there are lots of people who do not know that they do not know. Consequently they talk a load of rubbish.0 -
Curious that French literature is mentioned as I can somehow relate at this moment to how Voltaire was feeling when he wrote:
<< Il est dangereux d’avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort >>
Translated as: << It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong >>0 -
Semantik wrote:Curious that French literature is mentioned as I can somehow relate at this moment to how Voltaire was feeling when he wrote:
<< Il est dangereux d’avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort >>
Translated as: << It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong >>
I am please to see that in some areas your education was more successful than it was in science.0
