Upgrade to Hydros

Prowlus

I know I've just got my new Disc equipped Sportif just yesterday but i'm considering the potential upgrades I can do to this bike in the future namely the braking system .
Come across this adapter from hope that mounts underneath my headtube and connects the mechanical pull wires towards fully hydraulic calipers

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/hop ... m-ec034986

Is this worth procuring or is it best to wait for integrated hydraulic brake shifters?

Schobiedoo

IMO, wait.

Anonymous

You can already get integrated levers can't you?

I would find a converter under the bars a bit of a faff but I thought TRP did ones that use all of the cable and have a reservoir on each calliper.

Is it a Fuji that you have? Some disc brakes are shocking. They might bed in a bit though.

timothyw

Wait for the new shimano hydraulic 11 speed setup:
http://road.cc/content/news/115210-shim ... l-shifting

In the meantime look at trp hy/rd brakes if you must have hydro now, or the trp spyres if you want the best mechanical disc brakes currently available.

bendertherobot

Anyone with an ounce of DIY skills can fit TRP Hy Rd. They are a piece of cake.

Once fitted they are as good as hydros because, basically, they are.

And you don't have to faff around with shortening brake hoses and bleeding etc.

They aren't the last word in lever travel. But, with a bit of simple tweaking you can get the lever travel down to virtually nothing. Just install as per instructions then loosen the cable bolt, push the lever arm slightly and retighten.

Initialised

I fitted the Parabox R V2 to my bike as my BB5s seized so I couldn't really wait any longer, I got a year and maybe (8000 miles) out of them, I have some spare Baradine Organic BB5 Pads if you want them.

With the Parabox I do need to shorten my hoses but it works perfectly well a is. I already had a bleed kit (my MTB has Tektro, same pads too which keeps maintenance simple) but got a spare tube, syringe and more fluid in the box. Bleeding TRP/Tektro is easy compared to AVID.

The Parabox/V-Twins solutions are compatible with all levers and groupsets it's just a shame neither company opted to build it into a stem to better hide the cable clutter.

TRP HyRD is a neater solution but is prone to all the negatives of cable brakes, rusty cables and cable stretch and there is a low fluid volume so in theory it would take less energy to boil it and bring on brake fade. Having said that I haven't managed to get brake fade on a bike (must ride more hills and see if I can force it).

It really depends if you want to spend £200-250 on hydraulic brakes now and sell the BB5s while they still work or £500-600 in six months time for the 105 kit and change your hubs to centre lock at the same time and potentially change your rear derailer and cassette to accommodate 11 speed.

964cup

bendertherobot wrote:

Anyone with an ounce of DIY skills can fit TRP Hy Rd. They are a piece of cake.

Once fitted they are as good as hydros because, basically, they are.

And you don't have to faff around with shortening brake hoses and bleeding etc.

They aren't the last word in lever travel. But, with a bit of simple tweaking you can get the lever travel down to virtually nothing. Just install as per instructions then loosen the cable bolt, push the lever arm slightly and retighten.

Really, really don't do this. I did exactly this to my Hy/RDs. For a while I had exactly the short travel I wanted. Then I had no braking because restricting the actuator arm travel stops the piston returning fully which in turn means that any air that gets in the system can take up all of the remaining travel. The Hy/RD instructions are really clear on this point. I completely agree, by the way, that there's too much travel, but short of modifying the arm with a cam to change the pull ratio I can't see a way of addressing this while retaining full motion of the arm.

Initialised

BTW the Parabox R V2 is now £209

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/trp-parabox-r-r ... brake-kit/

I paid more like £240 a couple of months back.

Prowlus

Cool So which is the better of the 2 ? The parabox or the hope v-twin? I'm leaning towards parabox

Initialised

Can't say, I haven't used the Hope but went Parabox (2012) as someone on here said the Hope was spongy, but knowing hydros that could just mean it was needin' a bleedin' as BR say it was nice and tight. The red and blackness of the calipers suits my frame (I turned down a pair of nearly new silver HyRDs on that basis) and it takes the same pads as my MTB.

They both got 4 stars in their BR reviews and back then the Parabox was £360 and hadn't been updated while the V-Twins was £260 and hasn't changed.

Prowlus

Thanks . I just noticed there are 2 version of the parabox . Just wondering if anyone knows which year this parabox is on evans

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/trp ... r-ec037721

Reason is Evans can give me a free fitting within a 6 week period

Initialised

That's the older model (2011), it needs 14mm clearance under your stem and is less tolerant of steeply angled stems, the 2012 model only needs 5mm, is angled down for better clearance on steep stems (you can compensate for moving the stem up by using a steeper angle and is £70 cheaper at Wiggle which should cover fitting costs at an LBS or Evans. Fitting it took me an afternoon, I'd expect it to take a professional mechanic a couple of hours.

mikenetic

I honestly wouldn't bother with Hydros. TRP Spyre will give you all braking you need if you want to upgrade, they are a lot nicer than BB5.

Concerns about cable stretch are easily dealt with by simply turning the adjuster barrel, and most good quality cable inners are stainless steel these days, so rust isn't that much of an issue.

Road Hydro is all a bit Version 1 at the moment. I'd wait for some other guy to be the Guinea Pig.

Prowlus

Initialised wrote:

That's the older model (2011), it needs 14mm clearance under your stem and is less tolerant of steeply angled stems, the 2012 model only needs 5mm, is angled down for better clearance on steep stems (you can compensate for moving the stem up by using a steeper angle and is £70 cheaper at Wiggle which should cover fitting costs at an LBS or Evans. Fitting it took me an afternoon, I'd expect it to take a professional mechanic a couple of hours.

So is that one you have the 2011 model? I was speaking to evans head office today and they claim its a "2013 version" by trp . I even got them to request one sent to my local Evans in Hendon to view it . So judging by packaging , how can you tell which version it is?
http://imageshack.com/a/img845/6319/fqsx.jpg

above is what my stem looks like . Is this enough clearance for the box?

bunter

I run TRP Hy/Rds and like them a lot. Anti compression cable housings make a massive difference to lever feel and allow powerful braking with one finger. With my previous mechanical discs getting short lever travel was critical and I used to have to spend time every week or so adjusting them as the pads wore. Having the lever bite point closer to the bars is no problem with Hy/Rds - there's no way you are ever going to get the lever near the bar and it makes it more comfortable to cover the brakes. The pads self adjust so the bite point stays in the same place.

Prowlus

I think I will definitively need a more powerful braking system on my Fuji because after a long shakedown cruise with it today , the mechanical brakes have a very high biting point compared to my old dolomite's rim and my current camber mtb''s hydraulics which can be a bit dangerous when going downhill .
Went to Evans to comment about the problem (and fix a squeaky headset) but they said to me "it is normal for road mechanical s to be this way" .
Are they right or wrong with that statement?

timothyw

Make sure the inbound pad adjustment is properly set. There should only be a small gap between the rotor and the static pad.

If the brakes are still weak, realign the caliper by carrying out the 'business card' procedure here:
http://www.ecovelo.info/2011/04/15/a-fo ... sc-brakes/

Note that after performing the business card adjustment you may need to tweak the static rotor and cable tension to get the braking at its sweetest.

Also if you haven't ridden the bike much, remember that you need to bed in the brakes before they will work well anyway - do a few hard stops to accelerate the process!

Initialised

Prowlus wrote:

Initialised wrote:

That's the older model (2011), it needs 14mm clearance under your stem and is less tolerant of steeply angled stems, the 2012 model only needs 5mm, is angled down for better clearance on steep stems (you can compensate for moving the stem up by using a steeper angle and is £70 cheaper at Wiggle which should cover fitting costs at an LBS or Evans. Fitting it took me an afternoon, I'd expect it to take a professional mechanic a couple of hours.

So is that one you have the 2011 model? I was speaking to evans head office today and they claim its a "2013 version" by trp . I even got them to request one sent to my local Evans in Hendon to view it . So judging by packaging , how can you tell which version it is?
http://imageshack.com/a/img845/6319/fqsx.jpg

above is what my stem looks like . Is this enough clearance for the box?

Parabox 2012:
Parabox 2011:

Mine is the 2012 model, the white one you posted looks is a white 2011 model and would stand out too much.

Looking at your stem (drools...) I can see you have plenty of stack height for either model, I had to raise mine by 10cm as I had it as low as it'd go. I could get it lower, back to where it was, with a different headset seal or a longer stem

barrie h

964Cup wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

Anyone with an ounce of DIY skills can fit TRP Hy Rd. They are a piece of cake.

Once fitted they are as good as hydros because, basically, they are.

And you don't have to faff around with shortening brake hoses and bleeding etc.

They aren't the last word in lever travel. But, with a bit of simple tweaking you can get the lever travel down to virtually nothing. Just install as per instructions then loosen the cable bolt, push the lever arm slightly and retighten.

Really, really don't do this. I did exactly this to my Hy/RDs. For a while I had exactly the short travel I wanted. Then I had no braking because restricting the actuator arm travel stops the piston returning fully which in turn means that any air that gets in the system can take up all of the remaining travel. The Hy/RD instructions are really clear on this point. I completely agree, by the way, that there's too much travel, but short of modifying the arm with a cam to change the pull ratio I can't see a way of addressing this while retaining full motion of the arm.

Easy fix, if you take the caliper off the bike and take the pads out, take the reservoir top off, put a piece of wood between the pistons and pump the brake arm a few times to get any air out, then fill the reservoir right to the top, replace the top and clean very carefully with brake cleaner before you put the pads back in
Replace the caliper and set up as per instructions and the brake leaver will have a short travel

Barrie

Initialised

Prowlus wrote:

I think I will definitively need a more powerful braking system on my Fuji because after a long shakedown cruise with it today , the mechanical brakes have a very high biting point compared to my old dolomite's rim and my current camber mtb''s hydraulics which can be a bit dangerous when going downhill .
Went to Evans to comment about the problem (and fix a squeaky headset) but they said to me "it is normal for road mechanical s to be this way" .
Are they right or wrong with that statement?

Not really, I could tune my BB5s for short travel (an Evan's mechanic did too), overtime the travel would gradually get further and would at times be a trade off between braking performance and noise (first sign was brake noise when climbing out of the saddle). The angle of wear on the inner pad meant I had to re-align the caliper to shut it up again. So long as the lever isn't reaching the bars you'll be able to stop.

964cup

barrie h wrote:

Easy fix, if you take the caliper off the bike and take the pads out, take the reservoir top off, put a piece of wood between the pistons and pump the brake arm a few times to get any air out, then fill the reservoir right to the top, replace the top and clean very carefully with brake cleaner before you put the pads back in
Replace the caliper and set up as per instructions and the brake leaver will have a short travel

I know, it's how I spent last Monday evening :-)

However, I wouldn't describe the travel as short. The lever doesn't hit the bars, and there's plenty of power, but there's also a good deal of movement before any meaningful retardation. I'd like a much firmer lever if I could get one, but can't seem to with this system - despite repeated careful bleeding (and feel is identical front to rear, so I think this is design, not user error).

barrie h

964Cup wrote:

barrie h wrote:

Easy fix, if you take the caliper off the bike and take the pads out, take the reservoir top off, put a piece of wood between the pistons and pump the brake arm a few times to get any air out, then fill the reservoir right to the top, replace the top and clean very carefully with brake cleaner before you put the pads back in
Replace the caliper and set up as per instructions and the brake leaver will have a short travel

I know, it's how I spent last Monday evening :-)

However, I wouldn't describe the travel as short. The lever doesn't hit the bars, and there's plenty of power, but there's also a good deal of movement before any meaningful retardation. I'd like a much firmer lever if I could get one, but can't seem to with this system - despite repeated careful bleeding (and feel is identical front to rear, so I think this is design, not user error).

I have Campagnolo leavers I dont know if make will make any difference

Barrie

Initialised

barrie h wrote:

964Cup wrote:

barrie h wrote:

Easy fix...

I know, it's how I spent last Monday evening.

I have Campagnolo levers I don't know if make will make any difference

Possibly, there are reports of Campagnolo levers providing superior braking performance on Shimano rim brakes.

The other thing to check for badly performing cable actuated disc brakes whether the cable ends are square.

ugo.santalucia

We all want hydraulics, but we never ask ourselves why... we don't need better brakes, 'which can end up being dangerous, we just want the hydraulic feel and not the feedback prone cable feel... in essence it's a lot of money to have a lever that feels hydraulic...

Initialised

ugo.santalucia wrote:

We all want hydraulics, but we never ask ourselves why...

Oh I did, better feel and modulation was just part of it

Three reasons:
1: Reduced maintenance
2: Water freezing on rims in sub-zero conditions
3: Emergency stops downhill in heavy rain behind a bus

No regrets going Hydro after swapping out a pair of seized BB5s for a Parabox

964cup

ugo.santalucia wrote:

We all want hydraulics, but we never ask ourselves why... we don't need better brakes, 'which can end up being dangerous, we just want the hydraulic feel and not the feedback prone cable feel... in essence it's a lot of money to have a lever that feels hydraulic...

Paolo, I'm not sure that's fair. I have two disc-braked bikes, one on Hy/RD and one on Lyras. Both stop - but then so do all my rim-braked bikes - but the Hy/RDs need less frequent adjustment than the Lyras - and have better modulation - and both disc bikes stop better in the wet than the rim-braked bikes. I agree that in the dry it's much of a muchness - in fact I think the best overall braking feel and performance is my R3 with Ultegra 6800 calipers and SS Black Prince pads on carbon rims - but commuting in all weathers there's no comparison. Of course with enough lever pressure and after a little drying time you can lock up any type of brake on a descent, but the instant response and easy modulation of the Hy/RDs can make all the difference when the bus suddenly decides to stop half-way down Highgate Hill.

ugo.santalucia

I think you guys confuse "modulation" with "feel". Modulation is the same, whether the piston is pressed by a fluid or by a cable system... the more you pull the lever the more force it puts on the piston. I have plenty of modulation with cables, what I do not have is the nice feel of an hydraulic levers... it's not that before hydraulic brakes it was all or nothing...

You might be able to get extra force in a hydraulic system, but it is questionable whether you do need extra force. The same people would object that you don't need a 180 mm rotor as 160 is plenty... so extra froce yes or no? Make up your mind...

Yes, mechanical systems do require pad adjustment... which is a weekly operation that takes a few seconds with or without very basic tools... do I really want to spend an extra 500 quid (at least) to avoid doing that? Is my time really that valuable?

This is a very expensive upgrade in 2014, which only gives your hands a bit of extra pleasure, see if it is worth for you.... I will upgrade to hydraulics, the day they are cheap as chips no doubt I will...

Initialised

ugo.santalucia wrote:

extra 500 quid

Bit of an over estimate there, we're talking about hybrid systems costing around £200.

ugo.santalucia

Initialised wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

extra 500 quid

Bit of an over estimate there, we're talking about hybrid systems costing around £200.

Those are a mixed bag, with lever throw issues and don't give all the "benefits" of a hydraulic system. I have tried the Hope system and found it awful...

Initialised

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Initialised wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

extra 500 quid

Bit of an over estimate there, we're talking about hybrid systems costing around £200.

Those are a mixed bag, with lever throw issues and don't give all the "benefits" of a hydraulic system. I have tried the Hope system and found it awful...

Excellent, you've just answered the OPs question on the Hope V-Twins.

Prowlus

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Initialised wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

extra 500 quid

Bit of an over estimate there, we're talking about hybrid systems costing around £200.

Those are a mixed bag, with lever throw issues and don't give all the "benefits" of a hydraulic system. I have tried the Hope system and found it awful...

Can you tell us why? I'm in-between systems right now