Upgrade to Hydros

964cup

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think you guys confuse "modulation" with "feel".

No, it isn't. Modulation is specifically about the linearity of the relationship between force of application and degree of retardation, and the speed of response in the system to changes in the force of application.

A frequent criticism of early carbon disc brakes in automotive applications was that they were difficult to modulate - this meant that once you had brought the wheel close to the locking point, it was hard to maintain it at that point by varying pedal pressure. "Feel" in this context generally referred to the initial application of pedal pressure not resulting in confidence-inspiring initial retardation - this was most noticeable with cold discs.

For example, I find that the Black Prince pad / carbon rim combination on my R3 has good feel (in the dry) but relatively poor modulation. In a fast descent, the increase in retardation is not linear to lever force, meaning that it's easy to overbrake, and the pads are slightly "grabby" once hot, meaning that lightly releasing pressure on the lever does not immediately result in reduced braking.

I found that the Lyras, on the original sintered pads, had poor feel; they also had poor modulation. Once you were hard on the brakes, they seemed to become somewhat binary. Changing to an organic pad has helped somewhat, although pad wear is worse, and overall retardation also reduced (although still exceeding the traction limits of the tyres, so essentially irrelevant). The Hy/RDs have a more linear modulation - although this is noticeably affected by pad wear.

I also found that, in commuting use, it was necessary to adjust the Lyras weekly to maintain optimum braking performance; I've had to adjust the Hy/RDs once in four months. The price difference between the systems is about £120 in total.

ugo.santalucia

964Cup wrote:

I also found that, in commuting use, it was necessary to adjust the Lyras weekly to maintain optimum braking performance; I've had to adjust the Hy/RDs once in four months. The price difference between the systems is about £120 in total.

I did consider the Hy/Rd at one point, but negative feedback on Campagnolo levers (fully serviceable) made me stir towards other systems. I'd have to swap to horrible Shimano levers (disposable) or worse, SRAM, that notoriously fail within a few thousand miles, inevitably just outside warranty.
I am also still unconvinced that such a tiny fluid reservoir is safe to use in all conditions... got the feeling it's designed for CX, which is not what I use my CX bike for. I don't think one review is enough to convince me of the opposite

bunter

964Cup wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think you guys confuse "modulation" with "feel".

No, it isn't. Modulation is specifically about the linearity of the relationship between force of application and degree of retardation, and the speed of response in the system to changes in the force of application.

A frequent criticism of early carbon disc brakes in automotive applications was that they were difficult to modulate - this meant that once you had brought the wheel close to the locking point, it was hard to maintain it at that point by varying pedal pressure. "Feel" in this context generally referred to the initial application of pedal pressure not resulting in confidence-inspiring initial retardation - this was most noticeable with cold discs.

For example, I find that the Black Prince pad / carbon rim combination on my R3 has good feel (in the dry) but relatively poor modulation. In a fast descent, the increase in retardation is not linear to lever force, meaning that it's easy to overbrake, and the pads are slightly "grabby" once hot, meaning that lightly releasing pressure on the lever does not immediately result in reduced braking.

I found that the Lyras, on the original sintered pads, had poor feel; they also had poor modulation. Once you were hard on the brakes, they seemed to become somewhat binary. Changing to an organic pad has helped somewhat, although pad wear is worse, and overall retardation also reduced (although still exceeding the traction limits of the tyres, so essentially irrelevant). The Hy/RDs have a more linear modulation - although this is noticeably affected by pad wear.

I also found that, in commuting use, it was necessary to adjust the Lyras weekly to maintain optimum braking performance; I've had to adjust the Hy/RDs once in four months. The price difference between the systems is about £120 in total.

I also went Lyra to Hy/Rd. and agree with everything above (except I don't mind sintered pads). It is so much less hassle in terms of maintenance that it would be worth it even if there were no other benefits. Hy/Rds perform better. It is much easier to brake hard and late without losing traction.

ugo.santalucia

Has anyone come down a proper mountain* with the Hy/Rd?

* that's one with narrow and twisty road with frequent and steep bends, rather than one of those French/American mountain motorways

964cup

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Has anyone come down a proper mountain* with the Hy/Rd?

* that's one with narrow and twisty road with frequent and steep bends, rather than one of those French/American mountain motorways

Various journalists certainly claimed to, without boiling the fluid. I agree the reservoir is tiny, but remember that the boiling point of mineral oil is a lot higher than brake fluid (310c vs 230c-260c depending on DOT rating). It will also depend on the rotor, the total weight of the system (bike+rider) and the riding style.

I use the Hy/RD-equipped bike for winter rides in Hertfordshire (distinct lack of mountains) and commuting, so I'm not profoundly concerned about its Alpine descent performance. The total fluid volume in proper road hydro systems will be much greater, of course, not just because they'll likely have larger reservoirs, but also because of the fluid in the pipes themselves. I can't see road hydro being more dangerous than the current "overweight rider + carbon clinchers + riding the brakes all the way down" scenario.

ugo.santalucia

964Cup wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Has anyone come down a proper mountain* with the Hy/Rd?

* that's one with narrow and twisty road with frequent and steep bends, rather than one of those French/American mountain motorways

Various journalists certainly claimed to, without boiling the fluid. I agree the reservoir is tiny, but remember that the boiling point of mineral oil is a lot higher than brake fluid (310c vs 230c-260c depending on DOT rating). It will also depend on the rotor, the total weight of the system (bike+rider) and the riding style.

I use the Hy/RD-equipped bike for winter rides in Hertfordshire (distinct lack of mountains) and commuting, so I'm not profoundly concerned about its Alpine descent performance. The total fluid volume in proper road hydro systems will be much greater, of course, not just because they'll likely have larger reservoirs, but also because of the fluid in the pipes themselves. I can't see road hydro being more dangerous than the current "overweight rider + carbon clinchers + riding the brakes all the way down" scenario.

Not overly worried about the fluid boiling, but rather seals giving once the liquid reaches a certain temperature or something similarly nasty. With cables I only have the pads to worry about, which a more predictable risk to take. I would be happy if someone did a descent down the Mortirolo, or something equally treacherous, but they all seem to choose American or French descents which are frankly an easy job in the absence of "heavy traffic".
When in Italy I often climb up Monte Scalaro and coming down can be interesting, with 42 tight bends in around 7-8 miles

Initialised

ugo.santalucia wrote:

964Cup wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Has anyone come down a proper mountain* with the Hy/Rd?

* that's one with narrow and twisty road with frequent and steep bends, rather than one of those French/American mountain motorways

Various journalists certainly claimed to, without boiling the fluid. I agree the reservoir is tiny, but remember that the boiling point of mineral oil is a lot higher than brake fluid (310c vs 230c-260c depending on DOT rating). It will also depend on the rotor, the total weight of the system (bike+rider) and the riding style.

I use the Hy/RD-equipped bike for winter rides in Hertfordshire (distinct lack of mountains) and commuting, so I'm not profoundly concerned about its Alpine descent performance. The total fluid volume in proper road hydro systems will be much greater, of course, not just because they'll likely have larger reservoirs, but also because of the fluid in the pipes themselves. I can't see road hydro being more dangerous than the current "overweight rider + carbon clinchers + riding the brakes all the way down" scenario.

Not overly worried about the fluid boiling, but rather seals giving once the liquid reaches a certain temperature or something similarly nasty. With cables I only have the pads to worry about, which a more predictable risk to take. I would be happy if someone did a descent down the Mortirolo, or something equally treacherous, but they all seem to choose American or French descents which are frankly an easy job in the absence of "heavy traffic".
When in Italy I often climb up Monte Scalaro and coming down can be interesting, with 42 tight bends in around 7-8 miles

Did you try it when you had the V-Twins?

ugo.santalucia

No, I never HAD the Hope system, I just tried it once on another bike and found it not very good, certainly not an upgrade to anything... it's not been very popular and rightly so

Initialised

ugo.santalucia wrote:

No, I never HAD the Hope system, I just tried it once on another bike and found it not very good, certainly not an upgrade to anything... it's not been very popular and rightly so

Ah, OK, so what in your opinion was wrong with it?

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

964Cup wrote:

I also found that, in commuting use, it was necessary to adjust the Lyras weekly to maintain optimum braking performance; I've had to adjust the Hy/RDs once in four months. The price difference between the systems is about £120 in total.

I did consider the Hy/Rd at one point, but negative feedback on Campagnolo levers (fully serviceable) made me stir towards other systems. I'd have to swap to horrible Shimano levers (disposable) or worse, SRAM, that notoriously fail within a few thousand miles, inevitably just outside warranty.
I am also still unconvinced that such a tiny fluid reservoir is safe to use in all conditions... got the feeling it's designed for CX, which is not what I use my CX bike for. I don't think one review is enough to convince me of the opposite

I think I probably have 20k minimum on sram now. Never had a component fail. Apex levers must have done at least 5k miles.

ugo.santalucia

Initialised wrote:

Ah, OK, so what in your opinion was wrong with it?

It was very much all or nothing, much more than my mechanical, very woody and not particularly effective. Essentially it was as good as a bad set of cable disc brakes like my old budget Shimano R505

dave in swansea

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Has anyone come down a proper mountain* with the Hy/Rd?

* that's one with narrow and twisty road with frequent and steep bends, rather than one of those French/American mountain motorways

Hi Ugo.
I bought my Whyte Suffolk with the HY RD for riding the hills north of Swansea. Unfortunately not ridden enough yet due to working away from home. Probably the biggest descent so far is into Garnswllt. 170m down in about 1.2 km, couple of nasty bends and a cattle grid. T junction at the bottom of the hill.
Braking was great and I am over 105 kg. Fully in control all the way, not dragging the brakes all the way, but neither off them a lot. Found I could switch to just front or rear to maintain control and allow the other to cool.
Note to all, I have previously exploded a front wheel on this descent under braking on my old bike.. (Pulled 5 spokes off the hub)
Dave.

964cup

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Not overly worried about the fluid boiling, but rather seals giving once the liquid reaches a certain temperature or something similarly nasty.

Well, it's the same technology as car disc brakes, and generally the only things one worries about there is boiling the fluid or frying the pads (I could tell you a story about the Shell hairpin at Oulton Park that would curl your hair). Having recently had my Hy/RDs in bits, I'd be pretty relaxed about the seals, less so about the fluid given the small volume, and the pads, given the small swept area.

The thing is the alternative is rim brakes. Alloy rims, dry conditions, fine - although my rather heavy (and cautious) friend popped a clincher on alloy rims as a result of overheating going down Highgate West Hill, so it can be done. Carbon rims, wet conditions, less fine. Carbon rims, dry conditions, exceed the transition temperature, not fine at all, especially if using clinchers. Discs move the heat problem away from the rim, stop us using a frankly inappropriate material as a braking surface (yes, exalith, yes, basalt, but frankly we need to remember that "carbon" discs on cars are a cast carbon-ceramic compound that would be way too brittle to use in a 700c rim), and - in the case of a full hydro system - also offer some options for force multiplication allowing lighter lever pressure. This last is appealing particularly in winter, when cold hands may mean less force can be applied to the lever.

Tell you what. I don't much fancy going *up* the Mortirolo on my F3X, but if you ride it up we can swap bikes at the top and I'll ride it down. No lilies, please.