Gerry Adams

ballysmate

Well?
Who'd have thunk it?
That paragon of peace, that martyr to mediation, arrested. Surely not?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... urder.html


I can't imagine what it was like to dread a knock on the door. All I have had to fear is the Provisional Wing of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I hope that if he has got blood on his hands, justice catches up with him.

Mikey23

interview with son who was 11 at the time on R4 this morning. Describing what happened and how even he was tortured because some of the thugs were not masked. When he was 11 years old. He knows who did it but will not tell for fear of reprisals to himself and his family... even now, little has changed. The IRA and its various splinter groups are a criminal gang and probably always were. Let justice prevail

Pross

Adams won't get charged, it would be too political. The price of peace over there has meant that high profile suspects will never be brought before a court.

bdu98252

I guess that is the problem with armed conflicts in that once they have ended or are in the process of ending through a formal peace process the people with the kudos to represent a side in the political process often have blood on their hands. Otherwise why would they be chosen as a representative to get to the table to perform the negotiations on behalf of a group of people.

I can't imagine how I would feel if it was my parents or family who had been taken and then watching the new political classes getting rich in later life.

slowmart

http://www.foundation4peace.org/who-we-are/


If the price of justice means stability and not getting killed because your political or religious beliefs are different then isn't that a price worth paying?

I would that thought a truth and reconciliation commission would have been appropriate to provide closure for the victims families in this situation. I can't imagine what it meant to live through those times and the cost it bought to the community.

Could I forgive someone who planted a bomb in a crowded town centre which killed my daughter? I honestly don't know but it is humbling when you click on the link and see the great work being undertaken in the name of the victims of the Warrington bomb.

DeVlaeminck

I couldn't forgive, I can understand that it may be better that some people never get justice for the greater good, but I couldn't forgive someone killing an innocent family member if they are still denying the truth. Maybe if they came forwards and admitted it you could make a start.

debeli

It is an odd situation. Many of the acts carried out by paramilitary organisations on both sides of the conflict were despicable. The IRA faced the difficulty that they weren't ever helped or 'pointed in the right direction' by the forces of law & order, as was often the case with the 'loyalist' side of the scrap.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find (definitively) that Adams played an active role in the carnage, bloodletting, terror and torture. Similarly McGuinness.

However, the issue was created by London, through the initial taking of Ireland and then through the utterly bizarre creation of the Six Counties to somehow appease all elements while creating a weeping, open boil of hate for generations.

Many quite bright people I speak to from outside the UK who have a basic grasp of the issues find more moral legitimacy in the actions of the IRA than they do in those of the then RUC, the British Army or the loyalist paramilitaries.

The only one I ever really trusted was that Cillian Murphy, who fought against the Black & Tans instead of going to study medicine in London. That was before he woke up in a London Hospital after a bicycle crash. Where did I put my brandy?

Diamant49

Its a difficult one - I grew up and lived through the whole thing, and some people I knew were killed or injured - and some even killed (I was close friends with an ex para). When i was 10 a bomb was exploded in the street we lived in - we were the only ones living there (above a shop), and couldn't be evacuated - not hurt, but a bit traumatised at the time.

Gerry Adams does annoy me much more than many of his other SF colleagues, simply because he denies his obvious involvement. However, there is a bunch of victims groups here - Innocent Victims of the Troubles or something like that and they seem prepared to derail the whole process unless they get what they consider justice. I have a real problem with their approach - I know its tough, but I look at my 10 year old daughter and to be honest its much more important that we don't have any more victims to add to the list.

But this place always looks to the past much more than the future, so I don't hold out much hope for the future as too little is being done to actually change things for the better.

nathancom

Well this has proven clearly why he denies his involvement because otherwise he would be sent to jail.

The Northern Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens for centuries, and over 150 years longer than Catholics in the rest of the UK, following the act of emancipation. They were excluded from public life, from university, from many careers. There was a history of intimidation, torture, summary execution all carried out by the UK government against NI Catholics. The troubles also began as a result of Bloody Sunday, when unarmed Catholics engaged in a peaceful protest were deliberately fired upon by Army units.

Whilst this may not justify individual acts of violence carried out by individual Catholics it certainly suggests that responsibility for the troubles lies more with the UK government than with those who struggled against it.

mr_goo

Slowmart wrote:

Could I forgive someone who planted a bomb in a crowded town centre which killed my daughter?

I would't, no matter what was at stake. I cannot imagine what it was and is like for the families that lost loved ones in Warrington or Omagh. They are obviously more spiritual and forgiving than me.

As has been said on here, the IRA and all its affiliates and splinter groups are/were NOT 'freedom fighters' , but extremely violent organised crime gangs, hence the continuation of violence in NI. And don't get me started on Messrs Adams and McGuiness and the agreement that the multi millionaire Blair made.

mamba80

Mr Goo wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Could I forgive someone who planted a bomb in a crowded town centre which killed my daughter?

I would't, no matter what was at stake. I cannot imagine what it was and is like for the families that lost loved ones in Warrington or Omagh. They are obviously more spiritual and forgiving than me.

As has been said on here, the IRA and all its affiliates and splinter groups are/were NOT 'freedom fighters' , but extremely violent organised crime gangs, hence the continuation of violence in NI. And don't get me started on Messrs Adams and McGuiness and the agreement that the multi millionaire Blair made.

the bottom line is that agreement has allowed many people to live who otherwise would have died, maimed etc in horrible circumstances.
I don't like it anymore than anyone else but just like the end of WW2 (or add in many other conflicts) we don't go on punishing the germans, lots were hung/jailed but many many more escaped justice and even went on to work for allied agencies/companies or became wealthy businessmen in the resurgent german economy.

to me this is a case of "be careful what you wish for...."

sungod

nathancom wrote:

Well this has proven clearly why he denies his involvement because otherwise he would be sent to jail.

The Northern Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens for centuries, and over 150 years longer than Catholics in the rest of the UK, following the act of emancipation. They were excluded from public life, from university, from many careers. There was a history of intimidation, torture, summary execution all carried out by the UK government against NI Catholics. The troubles also began as a result of Bloody Sunday, when unarmed Catholics engaged in a peaceful protest were deliberately fired upon by Army units.

Whilst this may not justify individual acts of violence carried out by individual Catholics it certainly suggests that responsibility for the troubles lies more with the UK government than with those who struggled against it.

which in turn grew from the centuries of intimidation, torture, summary execution that the catholics inflicted on the jews, protestants, muslims and everyone else who didn't share their imaginary friend and follow their rules

looking back and blaming on the basis of selective interpretation is easy, it's one of the favourite techniques used to drive division, oppression, hatred and the self-righteous 'justification' of murdering scum of all persuasions

a more accurate view would be, in the past there were some real shitheads, driven by greed, lust for power, delusion and sheer malice, they came in all flavours, they really screwed things up

let's try not to be like them, let's not cite their behaviour as justification for ours

nathancom

sungod wrote:

nathancom wrote:

Well this has proven clearly why he denies his involvement because otherwise he would be sent to jail.

The Northern Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens for centuries, and over 150 years longer than Catholics in the rest of the UK, following the act of emancipation. They were excluded from public life, from university, from many careers. There was a history of intimidation, torture, summary execution all carried out by the UK government against NI Catholics. The troubles also began as a result of Bloody Sunday, when unarmed Catholics engaged in a peaceful protest were deliberately fired upon by Army units.

Whilst this may not justify individual acts of violence carried out by individual Catholics it certainly suggests that responsibility for the troubles lies more with the UK government than with those who struggled against it.

which in turn grew from the centuries of intimidation, torture, summary execution that the catholics inflicted on the jews, protestants, muslims and everyone else who didn't share their imaginary friend and follow their rules

looking back and blaming on the basis of selective interpretation is easy, it's one of the favourite techniques used to drive division, oppression, hatred and the self-righteous 'justification' of murdering scum of all persuasions

a more accurate view would be, in the past there were some real shitheads, driven by greed, lust for power, delusion and sheer malice, they came in all flavours, they really screwed things up

let's try not to be like them, let's not cite their behaviour as justification for ours

I am not sure that the entire list of crimes that can in some way be attributed to the Catholic Church justifies the repression of those who follow the Catholic faith in the northern corner of Ireland. That they responded with violence after Bloody Sunday is not surprising. But then according to you they should have just sucked it up apparently. The Blacks in America should have just sucked it up and so should the Jews in Nazi Germany, and any acts of violence by members of any of these groups should be deemed an unwarranted disturbance of the peace.

Yes there were some real shitheads driven by greed etc in this situation. Unfortunately a good proportion were representatives of the State. Also unfortunately acts of violence are not always wrong and sometimes necessary.

slowmart

nathancom wrote:

sungod wrote:

nathancom wrote:

Well this has proven clearly why he denies his involvement because otherwise he would be sent to jail.

The Northern Irish Catholics were treated as second class citizens for centuries, and over 150 years longer than Catholics in the rest of the UK, following the act of emancipation. They were excluded from public life, from university, from many careers. There was a history of intimidation, torture, summary execution all carried out by the UK government against NI Catholics. The troubles also began as a result of Bloody Sunday, when unarmed Catholics engaged in a peaceful protest were deliberately fired upon by Army units.

Whilst this may not justify individual acts of violence carried out by individual Catholics it certainly suggests that responsibility for the troubles lies more with the UK government than with those who struggled against it.

which in turn grew from the centuries of intimidation, torture, summary execution that the catholics inflicted on the jews, protestants, muslims and everyone else who didn't share their imaginary friend and follow their rules

looking back and blaming on the basis of selective interpretation is easy, it's one of the favourite techniques used to drive division, oppression, hatred and the self-righteous 'justification' of murdering scum of all persuasions

a more accurate view would be, in the past there were some real shitheads, driven by greed, lust for power, delusion and sheer malice, they came in all flavours, they really screwed things up

let's try not to be like them, let's not cite their behaviour as justification for ours

I am not sure that the entire list of crimes that can in some way be attributed to the Catholic Church justifies the repression of those who follow the Catholic faith in the northern corner of Ireland. That they responded with violence after Bloody Sunday is not surprising. But then according to you they should have just sucked it up apparently. The Blacks in America should have just sucked it up and so should the Jews in Nazi Germany, and any acts of violence by members of any of these groups should be deemed an unwarranted disturbance of the peace.

Yes there were some real shitheads driven by greed etc in this situation. Unfortunately a good proportion were representatives of the State. Also unfortunately acts of violence are not always wrong and sometimes necessary.

And so the cycle of violence continues………………..

The Sunday after the Brighton Bomb the Sunday Express carried a quote of the day. It quoted Michael Collins and was something along the lines of 'you can't put an ideal against a wall and machine gun it to death".

DesB3rd

Oddly the violence probably achieved nothing, though those involved at the time weren't to know that...

Think what the 1960s/70s was like for minorities more generally; compared to the degree to which we now actively support minority rights, while our forefathers were painfully at ease the sort of institutional inequalities & injustices we've actively legislated against. Things changed in NI much as they did elsewhere in the UK; the presence of the violence was coincidental.

ballysmate

Of course these freedom fighters wouldn't have anything to do with organised crime would they?

http://flarenetwork.org/learn/europe/ar ... ug_war.htm

socrates

I'm afraid Nathancon has a slight distortion of facts when he says that the troubles started as a result of Bloddy Sunday. That was in 1972. However in 1971 a British army sgt was killed by a bomb thrown into Springfield Road Poice Station. Also in that year 3 young Scottish soldiers who were off duty were taken away by the IRA and shot dead. The troubles were going before Bloody Sunday. Some people tend to use it as an excuse for the IRA to carry out a campaign of murder for years.

nathancom

socrates wrote:

I'm afraid Nathancon has a slight distortion of facts when he says that the troubles started as a result of Bloddy Sunday. That was in 1972. However in 1971 a British army sgt was killed by a bomb thrown into Springfield Road Poice Station. Also in that year 3 young Scottish soldiers who were off duty were taken away by the IRA and shot dead. The troubles were going before Bloody Sunday. Some people tend to use it as an excuse for the IRA to carry out a campaign of murder for years.

Well there has been trouble in NI since the English invaded in the Middle Ages so pick your dates...the responsibility for the first RUC officer to be killed and the first bombings is attributed to Loyalist paramilitary forces, and the first death to RUC officers but then they were 'on our side' so it is excusable and fine. Much easier to spread hate against the Republicans.

socrates

Put it whatever way you like but Bloody Sunday did not start the troubles.

nathancom

socrates wrote:

Put it whatever way you like but Bloody Sunday did not start the troubles.

No discrimination against Catholics on the basis of their faith started the troubles and we are told that for some reason this was their fault.

tangled_metal

The whole nasty period could have it's origins back centuries. Back through the oppression of Oliver's army. They had a several year campaign suppressing Catholic action which I believe was in.response to Catholic attacks on protestant. Going further back I'm sure you'll have heard about the battle of the Boyne. That great protestant victory over the Catholic.armies. But when you look closely at it you'll see the Catholicschurchacked by the French who was in a Power play for influence in Christian Europe against the holy Roman church. What I once read the pope backed the protestants. The enemy of my enemy is my friend so they say.

All this goes to my main point that the troubles were a f**ked up time. Protestant paramilitaries may have colluded with police but republicans colluded with the state machinery of.the republic. The Catholic church of Ireland was never a clean bystander neither. It was a mess and one never to be cleared up to the satisfaction of everyone. My only hope is the return of those disappeared. To not have a body to bury, to get closure... how would you feel about that? The rest is just tit for tat. I mean one side did a bad so the other is justified?
Truth and conciliation? Not possible. I remember hearing on radio or seeing on tv some expert saying someone coming clean under the idea of immunity could still face prosecution. We're not like south Africa, we've been signatories of various justice bodies or systems for long enough to know a law to allow such a commission be against existing laws and treaties. Come clean then say done international court takes over and prosecutes anyway. Hard to act unilaterally these days.
Gerry Adams? Guilty or not? He's guilty of ssomething the leaders all have blood on hand. Would never rise to the top of they weren't up for a bit of violence.

DeVlaeminck

nathancom wrote:

socrates wrote:

Put it whatever way you like but Bloody Sunday did not start the troubles.

No discrimination against Catholics on the basis of their faith started the troubles and we are told that for some reason this was their fault.

Jean McConville was a Catholic, albeit one that had converted after marriage to a former Catholic British soldier. You can't help but feel that had something to do with what happened to her.

Yes nathancom you may be right about the immediate origins of the troubles but does that justify beating and then executing a mother of 10 in cold blood ? As has been said it may be for the best that Gerry Adams isn't prosecuted for this but what is almost certain is that he deserves to be. He's really no better than the people who were responsible for Bloody Sunday.

At the very least why haven't the provisional IRA come clean about what happened to the disappeared ?

socrates

And that in your opinion seems to be a valid reason to take a mother of 10 from her home in front of her children and murder her then hide her body. Let's not forget that the night before they took her away and gave her a beating. There was discrimination in NI before the troubles but it was not all on the one side. Do you really in all seriousness believe that these murderers should get off scot fre. For your information the paramilitaries on both sides are not freedom fighters, they are thugs and gangsters. Just look how many of the top men in these organisations are well off.

Cygnus

Tangled Metal wrote:

The whole nasty period could have it's origins back centuries. Back through the oppression of Oliver's army. They had a several year campaign suppressing Catholic action which I believe was in.response to Catholic attacks on protestant. Going further back I'm sure you'll have heard about the battle of the Boyne. That great protestant victory over the Catholic.armies. But when you look closely at it you'll see the Catholicschurchacked by the French who was in a Power play for influence in Christian Europe against the holy Roman church. What I once read the pope backed the protestants. The enemy of my enemy is my friend so they say.

All this goes to my main point that the troubles were a f**ked up time. Protestant paramilitaries may have colluded with police but republicans colluded with the state machinery of.the republic. The Catholic church of Ireland was never a clean bystander neither. It was a mess and one never to be cleared up to the satisfaction of everyone. My only hope is the return of those disappeared. To not have a body to bury, to get closure... how would you feel about that? The rest is just tit for tat. I mean one side did a bad so the other is justified?
Truth and conciliation? Not possible. I remember hearing on radio or seeing on tv some expert saying someone coming clean under the idea of immunity could still face prosecution. We're not like south Africa, we've been signatories of various justice bodies or systems for long enough to know a law to allow such a commission be against existing laws and treaties. Come clean then say done international court takes over and prosecutes anyway. Hard to act unilaterally these days.
Gerry Adams? Guilty or not? He's guilty of ssomething the leaders all have blood on hand. Would never rise to the top of they weren't up for a bit of violence.

Religion has a lot to answer for.

nathancom

I think violent times will turn good men into bad and will raise bad men into positions of power they would never otherwise attain. I suspect that there is a mixture of both of these types amongst the paramilitary groups.

As to the wisdom of continuing to investigate and prosecute, I believe there is more chance of lasting peace if we held a truth & reconciliation style uncovering of events rather than continuing to create further resentments on either side.

Garry H

Thought this would have been covered under the good friday agreement?

NEWSFLASH:Released without charge. The better of two evils...

Frank the tank

If sinn fein are a democratic party surely they should back the police in their efforts to solve a murder of a fellow citizen.

I wouldn't like to think I was a member of a political party that endorsed kidnap and murder as acceptable.

Garry H

Frank the tank wrote:

If sinn fein are a democratic party surely they should back the police in their efforts to solve a murder of a fellow citizen.

I wouldn't like to think I was a member of a political party that endorsed kidnap and murder as acceptable.

Even if it were, at one time at least, the political wing of a terrorist organisation?

socrates

I can tell that Nathancon is a committed republican. The usual rhetoric and support for murderers. Maybe you should speak to some of the widows and children who grew up without mothers and/or fathers. Perhaps your views also support babies in their prams who were murdered by IRA bombs. Murder is murder no matter who commits or in what name. As I said before - thugs and gangsters.

nathancom

socrates wrote:

I can tell that Nathancon is a committed republican. The usual rhetoric and support for murderers. Maybe you should speak to some of the widows and children who grew up without mothers and/or fathers. Perhaps your views also support babies in their prams who were murdered by IRA bombs. Murder is murder no matter who commits or in what name. As I said before - thugs and gangsters.

There were definitely two sides involved. Let's look at what the The Council on Foreign Relations has to say about the Loyalists (http://www.cfr.org/terrorist-organizations-and-networks/northern-ireland-loyalist-paramilitaries-uk-extremists/p9274):

Despite accounting for almost thirty percent of the deaths in the Northern Ireland conflict, loyalists’ attacks have generally drawn far less media and international attention than those perpetrated by the IRA. Major loyalist attacks include:

The UVF’s 1966 shooting of four Catholics, one fatally, outside a Belfast pub. This attack was the first major act of sectarian violence since Ireland was divided, and it spurred Catholic activism, which soon turned violent.
The UVF’s 1969 bombing of a power station near Belfast. Initially attributed to the IRA, this attack also helped trigger the Troubles.
The UVF’s 1971 bombing of a Belfastpub, which killed fifteen people.
A pair of UVF bombings in Dublin and Monaghan, both in the Republic of Ireland, on May 17, 1974, that killed thirty-three civilians, making this day the deadliest of the conflict.
The UDA’s October 1993 machine-gun attack on a bar in the Northern Ireland town of Greysteel, which killed eight civilians.
The LVF killing of Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams’ nephew in January 1998.
A fierce campaign of intimidation and abuse of Catholic schoolgirls inBelfast between June and October 2001.
The murder of fourBelfast residents in the summer of 2005 (marching season). The Independent Monitoring Commission blamed the UVF for the deaths in a special report in September and the group’s ceasefire was declared broken later that month.

Now I am all for amnesty being given on both sides, unfortunately it seems that this conflicts with the European Convention on Human Rights (access to justice is ensured within article 2). It was a bloody conflict which has created resentment on both sides and it has taken courage from all concerned to step away from the conflict.

Furthermore, if there was proof against GA then he would no doubt have been charged with an offence. In the absence of any public display of evidence it is a little hasty for anyone to proclaim certainty of his guilt.

socrates

Let's hope the McConville family get enough support for a private prosecution.