Riding two abreast - Legailty and Morality

CXrider

I have never known the answer to this.

Is riding two abreast ever actually illegal or just not good form?
It sounds silly as I type it but is there anything in the highway code about it?
I haven't seen that in 25 years! :oops:

Of course, there are some safety issues as two riders is logically a larger target than one.
However, I am starting to think that its a false safety.
Case in point - I was riding with a few mates and as we are newbies we are moving all over the place anyway and rarely nice and singular linear. More than once a car would just miss us as it tries to keep in our side of the road with oncoming traffic.
When two abreast the car HAS to move into the other side of the road and it's very safe as there is a lot more space to play with.

I would add that I like to ride two abreast when out with my mates or my father as I am a bit mutt and jeff in the left ear and we have a conversation but its only once in a while and nearly always only on the country roads (we ride in the weekday and its very quiet) and i always look behind me before pulling alongside.

The thing is, about 1 in 10 cars will press their horn in clear anger and others will shout profanities.
I do not know who is the right so I mainly don't do a lot of twp abreast out of fear of being embrrassed by angry motorists. It comes to patience I know and I am the first to admit that I don't like being held up when in the car.

The thing that my mate argues is that if we were a slow moving car, or a tractor, or had a problem then the car would have to overtake us anyway using the other side of the road. Bikes are a LOT quicker to overtake given relative speeds so what is the bloody problem?
I suspect it comes down to motorists having zero patience although we are all Mr Slow when we come across a horse and everyone knows they need a wide birth.
Shouldn't cyclists be afforded the same courtesy?

If you say that cyclists don't tend to jump out when spooked then you haven't cycled behind my 67 year old father!

buddy_club

Well the rule is that when you are overtaking a cyclist/group of cyclists you should give them the same space as a car would require, so you should go into the oncoming lane. So riding two abreast is legal and perfectly fine, however it is a bit inconsiderate on narrower roads where cars cannot overtake if you ride two abreast.

angry_bird

Riding tow abreast I feel is fine if the road is appropriate and you're not properly hindering cars from passing you that would otherwise be able to pass you safely if you were riding single file, that does seem a bit inconsiderate. Shouldn't do it on narrow roads, round corners or on busy roads really, as I think it says in the highway code.

Yesterday we had a woman honking at us for riding 2 abreast, about a minute later we came up behind an old steam roller thingy, funnily enough people didn't seem to have a problem with that.

Earlier I was riding two abreast with a mate, straight road, decent width, quiet up ahead so plenty of space for traffic to pass and as a van passes the driver started leaning over the passenger seat and swearing at us, as I made a kind of "what?" gesture (definitely nothing rude or aggressive) he pulls a metre or two ahead then puts his brakes on fairly hard and pulls over to the left, hitting me in the process and driving me into the kerb :roll:

I genuinely don't get his problem, he actually overtook us fairly safely but still had a go at us and took a swipe with his van :shock:

JackPozzi

Highway code rules for cyclists

https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-5 ... w-59-to-71

66
You should

keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear
keep both feet on the pedals
never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends
not ride close behind another vehicle
not carry anything which will affect your balance or may get tangled up with your wheels or chain
be considerate of other road users, particularly blind and partially sighted pedestrians. Let them know you are there when necessary, for example, by ringing your bell if you have one. It is recommended that a bell be fitted.

simon_masterson

Acceptable, just be reasonable about it. It really annoys me when cycling clubs cause huge tailbacks unnecessarily.

Agent57

CXrider wrote:

More than once a car would just miss us as it tries to keep in our side of the road with oncoming traffic.

Sounds like even if you're single file, you need to ride further out from the gutter to try and discourage that sort of overtaking.

markhewitt1978

Much of the time if you're riding safely on your own you would be riding where the second rider would be anyway. If a car has enough space to overtake in the other lane then it's fine. Remember you own the lane you are in.

rickeverett

"ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends"

that's what the official line is.......


basically single file 90% of the time. Most roads are narrow, bendy and busy in this country.

I personally don't like it. Its inappropriate most of the time.

rickeverett

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Much of the time if you're riding safely on your own you would be riding where the second rider would be anyway. If a car has enough space to overtake in the other lane then it's fine. Remember you own the lane you are in.

??????


what? Thats almost as far out as the driving position would be in a car. Who rides so far out in the road???

philwint

Simon Masterson wrote:

It really annoys me when cycling clubs cause huge tailbacks unnecessarily.

But the thing is, if there are 10 of you out together I think it is usually easier to overtake a 5 bike long 2 abreast pack than a 10 bike long 1 abreast pack. Not always I grant you, e.g on a narrow country lane, but certainly a lot of the time.

We usually ride 2 abreast but will single out where its safe to do so and it will actually make it easier for a car to gt past us.

JackPozzi

rickeverett wrote:

"ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends"

that's what the official line is.......


basically single file 90% of the time. Most roads are narrow, bendy and busy in this country.

I personally don't like it. Its inappropriate most of the time.

The word should is also quite important there rather than must. On the rare occasions that I ride in a group nowadays I find my solo road position would normally be bang in the middle of the 2 lines so it's really not much wider, but riding two abreast makes the group half the length of a single file string which allows for easier overtaking. I won't ride in a group of more than 10 riders though....

ForumNewbie

If I'm out with a friend I only ride two abreast when safe to do so, and usually drop into single file if I hear a car coming. However even cycling on my own to work down a single carriageway A road, it really bugs me that a lot of lorries and vans in particular pass too closely in the same lane when cars are coming the opposite way. It would just take me to wobble a bit or to hit a pot hole and a truck could easily hit me by passing too close.

Considerate drivers will wait until the other carriageway is clear to pass me safely, but all too often drivers are impatient and in a hurry, and will try to squeeze past rather than wait.

Anonymous

Unfortunately we let people drive cars that should should not be and who do not know more than the basics and folk law about the rules.

Their brains say that bikes should be single file and they probably think they should be on a cycle path if there is one.

Anything unusual freaks them out and they just want whats best/easiest for them rather than having to deal with things like rules and laws.

slowbike

rickeverett wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Much of the time if you're riding safely on your own you would be riding where the second rider would be anyway. If a car has enough space to overtake in the other lane then it's fine. Remember you own the lane you are in.

??????


what? Thats almost as far out as the driving position would be in a car. Who rides so far out in the road???

No it's not, it's much closer in .... Unless you usually ride in the gutter ....

StillGoing

rickeverett wrote:

"ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends"

that's what the official line is.......


basically single file 90% of the time. Most roads are narrow, bendy and busy in this country.

I personally don't like it. Its inappropriate most of the time.

Completely disagree. The Highway Code is not the law, but the notion of riding no more than two abreast is logical from a safety point of view. Car drivers will try and pass wherever they can even if that means getting closer to you than is safe or necessary. Riding two abreast even as two riders makes them think twice about it and look for a clearer gap. In larger groups, a single line of riders makes the car driver having to look for a bigger opportunity to pass a line of riders and when oncoming traffic suddenly appears, they won't think twice about nudging into the line of riders who are a soft impact rather than a hunk of metal hurtling towards them.

Ride two abreast, but assist drivers by giving them an indication if its clear to pass. If it's a narrow road where a car wouldn't be able to get by, then file down to single file.

rolf_f

philwint wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

It really annoys me when cycling clubs cause huge tailbacks unnecessarily.

But the thing is, if there are 10 of you out together I think it is usually easier to overtake a 5 bike long 2 abreast pack than a 10 bike long 1 abreast pack. Not always I grant you, e.g on a narrow country lane, but certainly a lot of the time.

We usually ride 2 abreast but will single out where its safe to do so and it will actually make it easier for a car to gt past us.

That's the logic - but the counter to it is that irrespective of how easy single file or two abreast might actually be to overtake, drivers will assume single file is easier and therefore they will think you are being obstructive in riding two abreast.

Sometimes I think it is best just to humour them and single file even though I know they won't be able to overtake anway.

The risk is of course that single file might encourage a premature pass causing them to have to try to squeeze back in half way through the pass.

Does remind me once of an incident in my club that made me cringe. We were on a single track road. I was beyond the front of the group having dropped them on a climb. There were two cars at the back of the group so I stopped at a convenient point knowing that there was a mile of road before the next sensible stopping point. I call out that there is a car behind as the group goes past. They don't stop. I wave the cars past. I then watch the two cars crawl behind the group mostly up a hill at about 9mph average speed for seven minutes or so until they got to the top and let the cars past. I was glad that my club jersey was under a windproof that day.

slowbike

philthy3 wrote:

Completely disagree. The Highway Code is not the law, but the notion of riding no more than two abreast is logical from a safety point of view. Car drivers will try and pass wherever they can even if that means getting closer to you than is safe or necessary. Riding two abreast even as two riders makes them think twice about it and look for a clearer gap. In larger groups, a single line of riders makes the car driver having to look for a bigger opportunity to pass a line of riders and when oncoming traffic suddenly appears, they won't think twice about nudging into the line of riders who are a soft impact rather than a hunk of metal hurtling towards them.

Ride two abreast, but assist drivers by giving them an indication if its clear to pass. If it's a narrow road where a car wouldn't be able to get by, then file down to single file.

I partly disagree with that - Riding two abreast can make some car drivers angry to the point of pushing past when it's not safe to do so.

I agree with your last para though - if the cyclist can pre-empt the driver by indicating that it's safe to pass or moving so it is and also saying thanks at the same time somewhat takes the sting out of their tail ...

topdude

I think a bit of psychology comes in here, if i'm riding two abreast and a car comes up behind i will pull back behind the other rider.
Doing this instantly defuses any potential situation as you have been courteous and considerate. 8)
The trouble with exercising your rights by commanding the lane or riding two abreast is that you are the soft target and it is you the cyclist that will get hurt.

No good lying in hospital thinking "i'm right" :roll:

cougie

CXrider - did you not ever think to look this up in the highway code ?

socistep

rightly or wrongly riding 2 abreast seems to get a lot of (impatient) car users backs up, I've had a few heated debates with mates where its the usual "riding side by side chatting and taking up all the space" etc. - and as mentioned before seems to really rile people as opposed to slow moving tractors and horses

Doesn't really impact me as I go out solo

I can see the larger groups being a pain though, I was out sunday morning and a fast moving quick group from a local cycling club went past, I would guessed at about 20-25 and there were more in a pack, 3 or 4 abreast in some places - on small dales roads it must be hard to get passed

rickeverett

socistep wrote:

rightly or wrongly riding 2 abreast seems to get a lot of (impatient) car users backs up, I've had a few heated debates with mates where its the usual "riding side by side chatting and taking up all the space" etc. - and as mentioned before seems to really rile people as opposed to slow moving tractors and horses

Doesn't really impact me as I go out solo

I can see the larger groups being a pain though, I was out sunday morning and a fast moving quick group from a local cycling club went past, I would guessed at about 20-25 and there were more in a pack, 3 or 4 abreast in some places - on small dales roads it must be hard to get passed

On small Dales roads its also a accident waiting to happen.

kajjal

The best guide is don't put yourself at risk. There is a big difference between that and confident riding.

cougie

The pack probably wasnt 4 abreast - you were probably seeing riders from different 'pairs' up and down the chain.

homers_double

I'll ocasionaly pull up aside one the guys I ride with but drop back or pull ahead to tuck in if there's a car coming from behind.

socistep

cougie wrote:

The pack probably wasnt 4 abreast - you were probably seeing riders from different 'pairs' up and down the chain.

yeah I'm sure there is a lot of movement but it was still 3/4 abreast, I'm sure there is plenty of movement up and down which increases the size as they go along.

I also once saw a larger group coming down the Otley road from Leeds one sunday morning, I did wonder how much space they would take up.

Its not criticism, doesn't massively bother me either way but I can see that being a pain and a bone of contention for drivers - more the 'morality' side of things

JackPozzi

socistep wrote:

cougie wrote:

The pack probably wasnt 4 abreast - you were probably seeing riders from different 'pairs' up and down the chain.

yeah I'm sure there is a lot of movement but it was still 3/4 abreast, I'm sure there is plenty of movement up and down which increases the size as they go along.

I also once saw a larger group coming down the Otley road from Leeds one sunday morning, I did wonder how much space they would take up.

Its not criticism, doesn't massively bother me either way but I can see that being a pain and a bone of contention for drivers - more the 'morality' side of things

In a decent group there won't be any movement up or down that requires going 3 abreast, one line moves forwards and the riders rotate if there is any movement.

But you can sometimes get a situation like the diagram below (if it works!), if you pretend that's an overhead view of a group of riders, all are side by side so no more than 2 abreast, but viewed from the rear it can look like more.


---- |- |
--- |- |

---

| - |
-- |-- |
--- |- |

EDIT: Diagram didn't work as spaces don't show properly, have changed it now which isn't as effective. vertical lines are riders, horizontals are nothing

markos1963

Stop feeling guilty for doing what you are entitled to. You have every right to use the road, we are classed as 'carriages' and have the right to be there since 1897. If we hold up traffic then so be it. Yes to not causing unnecessary delays but if it isn't safe to overtake two cyclists riding abreast then it probably isn't safe to overtake one. The highway Code is there to give guidance so it is up to us to use it properly. Personally as I driver I would rather overtake a five long string of two abreast cyclists than a ten long single snake. The mount of time lost in waiting behind a group is measured in seconds let alone minutes and people need to get a sense of reality about this.

iron-clover

I find it really depends on the roads and also the general area that you're riding in. For example, if you assume a group of 10 riders- I say riding 2 abreast is easier if the road is too narrow for cars to overtake without moving into the opposite side (most of the time) and have a good view ahead as this halves the length of the group and makes no real difference to how the overtake should be made.
If the road is wide enough for cars to pass continually- ride single file, also when there is lots of oncoming traffic in any roads- and when you can't see far ahead in case a driver makes a mistake and lands in the group- when single file you can clear a space in a hurry.

I find generally in Surrey riding two abreast isn't a great idea as drivers are much more impatient here than anywhere else, whereas Oxfordshire is much better to ride two abreast as there is generally less traffic and everyone is much more sensible so overtaking is made easier overall (shorter distance for the car to clear).
I often find myself at the back of a group ride, and if the conditions aren't safe for overtaking I ride in the primary position to help prevent and silly maneuvers- if the vehicle can't get past me safely, then it certainly won't make the rest of the group.

It's a shame that you get to these situations in the first place though- if everyone had a sensible head on them it would be a much more pleasant place to both drive and cycle in.

Red.Devil.Ghost

For me, its a mute point. You can do whatever and many car drivers will still shout at you, make signs, all sorts. Its an on-going war with no end in sight as far as I can see. I'm not saying that all car drivers are the same because obviously they are not.

I have no problem with riding two abreast but most of the time in towns and the like, its just not worth the hassle. But in this ongoing war, cyclists are not entirely innocent either. While many cyclists will be courteous and do what is best, there are many cyclists who do not use lights, do not use hand signals, weave in and out of traffic and skip red lights. They do nothing to help the situation.

At the end of the day, I've stopped caring about what is best for anyone accept for me and anyone I might be riding with. You can be perfectly right in something, but it doesn't help you if you are dead. Self preservation is the key to the game. Until something drastic is done, nothing will change.

Agent57

JackPozzi wrote:

---- |- |
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-- |-- |
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EDIT: Diagram didn't work as spaces don't show properly, have changed it now which isn't as effective. vertical lines are riders, horizontals are nothing

Something like this perhaps:

From above:

     |  |
    |  |
     |  |
      |  |
    |  |

From behind:

    ||||||

From behind could even look like 6 abreast (depth perception notwithstanding), even though no individual pair of riders are more than 2 side by side.

StillGoing

socistep wrote:

rightly or wrongly riding 2 abreast seems to get a lot of (impatient) car users backs up, I've had a few heated debates with mates where its the usual "riding side by side chatting and taking up all the space" etc. - and as mentioned before seems to really rile people as opposed to slow moving tractors and horses

Doesn't really impact me as I go out solo

I can see the larger groups being a pain though, I was out sunday morning and a fast moving quick group from a local cycling club went past, I would guessed at about 20-25 and there were more in a pack, 3 or 4 abreast in some places - on small dales roads it must be hard to get passed

It winds car drivers up simply because they think it's illegal. There is an assumption among car drivers that cyclists cannot cycle side by side. They don't whine about horse riders doing it or them leaving a pile of shite for them to drive through.