(Isotonic) Electrolyte Sports Drinks
Comments
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You were happy to dismiss Gatorade for that exact reason though...why the change now?
Trying to drag this back to the original question, what was it you ve read that makes you use (if so) and electrolyte "concoction of your own making"?We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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ddraver wrote:You were happy to dismiss Gatorade for that exact reason though...why the change now?
Trying to drag this back to the original question, what was it you ve read that makes you use (if so) and electrolyte "concoction of your own making"?
If I understand your query correctly, the difference is that Tim Noakes is an internationally renowned doctor and scientist who has his worked published and peer reviewed. Gatrorade (read PepsiCo) is a massive food and drink conglomerate whose altruistic motives for their customers are questionable at best.
In an effort to get back to the original premise of the thread, let's examine another one of Tim Noakes' assertions; namely that electrolyte supplementation is unnecessary.
Traditionally the premise is that when we exercise, we sweat. The harder we exercise, especially in warmer temperatures the more the body sweats to try and keep itself cool. When we sweat it comes out salty. The logic then being we are losing salt, sometimes at a great rate and we need to replace that salt if we are to remain healthy. Wrong.
There is a major flaw in that logic. We in the West consume far too much salt in our everyday diets. Even if we don't add any extraneous salt to our food, it is in almost every processed food we eat. This problem has been exacerbated by an obsession with avoiding fat at all costs since the 1960s when it was (erroneously) postulated that fat is the direct cause of heart disease. Food manufacturers since that time driven by numerous misguided health authorities have removed fat from all sorts of products in an effort to make them appear more “healthy”. However, the big problem with that is that if you remove the fat from something you also remove a lot of the flavour. To restore the product to something resembling palatable to their customers they have to increase the salt and sugar content to ridiculous levels making the food even less healthy than before. The upshot of all this is that we are now consuming way too much salt (and sugar) for our needs.
According to the NHS website we in the UK consume on average, 8.1g of salt per day whereas the recommended upper level is around 1.5g. Where does all the excess salt go? As with most excesses in human consumption, the body has ways of dealing with it and pumping it out through sweating and urine are the usual outlets. The fact that you sweat salt is therefore not an indication that you are getting deficient and need to replace it, rather you have too much to start with and the body is just ridding itself of the excess. The fact that we start chucking it down in energy drinks is just forcing the body to work even harder to get rid of that lot as well..
Tim Noakes describes the body's system for managing its blood sodium level and it is a very sophisticated system which recognises if salt levels are getting low and will then shut off the depletion and sweat will get less salty. He quotes research that has been done into very severe sodium restriction over long periods and still the body copes more than adequately by preserving what it needs.
From the link I posted earlier:
http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlog ... -book.html
Simply put, the presence of salt deposits on skin and clothing are due to the body ridding of excesses, and when sodium balance is achieved – or if a blood sodium deficit is perceived – the body will conserve it from sweat and urine.
And later on in the same article:
The original belief of salt deficits and cramps was based, according to Noakes’ review of research, on studies of a single miner in the 1920s, who showed salt and fluid losses in association with cramps.
Noakes points out many studies that not only fail to show an association, but demonstrate normal – if not mildly elevated – blood sodium concentrations in those with muscle cramps. Conversely, it is well accepted that those suffering from hyponatremia do not suffer from muscle cramps – the very patient population that would, in theory suffer the most cramping, should a sodium deficit truly cause cramping. Internal or external temperatures also do not play a role, as EAMC occur in cool conditions (including extreme cold water swimmers).
Interestingly, more recent studies have even shown that ingesting electrolyte drinks actually increase cramping incidence: a 2005 study found a 68% incidence of those drinking Gatorade, versus a 54% drinking water, or nothing. And there may be a reason for that.
The current leading theory on muscle cramping is that neuromuscular fatigue – and the loss of inhibitory reflexes – causes excessive muscle activity, resulting in cramping. Moreover, a 2011 study has identified those two risk factors for developing cramping: previous cramping experiences, and faster finishing times; not body weight losses or blood sodium levels. This could explain the greater incidence of cramps amongst Gatorade drinkers: if an athlete perceives protection from drinking it – along with the ergogenic aid of glucose solution – they will run more intensely, possibly resulting in more cramps.
Please read the articles for yourselves and make up your own minds if it makes sense or not. Too long we have been fed a line by manufacturers pushing one product or another and we don't question the underlying logic of what is going on. Ultimately you have to find what works for you. If that is drinking water with Zero tablets then fine, carry on doing it.
Getting down from the soapbox here is what I currently do. I was on a 100 mile sportive just last Sunday and had the following:
1x 750ml bottle containing 240g maltodextrin + 60g whey protein
3x 750ml bottles of plain water
4x 40g homemade rice cakes using Dr Allen Lim's recipe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UiuqIWGe_s)
There is some salt in the rice cakes because I use bacon and light soy sauce in the recipe but no electrolytes in any of my drinks.
I use the multi-hour energy bottle strategy as suggested by Hammer Nutrition in their documentation but get all my energy products in bulk from Myprotein much cheaper. I drink the one energy bottle spaced out over the whole ride and it saves me having to carry extra powder to make up on the ride. I drink the water in my other bottle and it allows me to just drink plain water (you could add Zero tabs if you desire) especially when I am eating the rice cakes as well.
I finished in a gold medal time of 6 hours 12 minutes which is not meant to be a boast because I'm sure many of you could have done better. It was a pretty good time for me though and just meant to give an indication that I wasn't hanging around. I finished the ride with plenty of energy although my legs were tired with the effort of the undulating course. I did a normal 47 mile training ride two days later on Tuesday as well and felt fine. I am 58 years old, 6' 4” and 182 lbs at the moment and trying to lose every bit of fat I can in preparation for the Marmotte in July. I hope that helps.
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ddraver wrote:I ll try once more...do you know why having electrolytes in water helps/hinders or other wise unaffects the absorbtion of water?
No. As far as I have read (not just Tim Noakes) it's not clear either way whether it helps or hinders. There is research either way to suggest it helps, has no effect or actually contributes to cramping. I'm not sure if it directly affects water absorption but there is some evidence to suggest hypertonic drinks like Gatorade definitely do hinder stomach emptying and can lead to GI distress. Hypotonic amd isotonic drinks are supposed to be safer from this point of view.
If you think that electrolytes in water help you or you just prefer the taste then go with that. I would just say don't consume too much.0 -
I only train with water......I used these drinks when I raced, but, these drinks will destroy teeth even with good dental hygiene.....My dentist was really pi$$ed off with me.
Better to have a really good diet, obviously on some really hot days you will see salt lines on the kit, just eat plenty of Fruit/Veg and keep well hydrated, this will keep things in-check.0 -
damocles10 wrote:I only train with water......I used these drinks when I raced, but, these drinks will destroy teeth even with good dental hygiene.....My dentist was really pi$$ed off with me.
Better to have a really good diet, obviously on some really hot days you will see salt lines on the kit, just eat plenty of Fruit/Veg and keep well hydrated, this will keep things in-check.
Did your dentist mention the ingredient that destroyed your teeth?"You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Nope..but we did see the enamel go quite quickly...perhaps destroy is too strong. I will never drink these drinks again.0
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hypster wrote:ShockedSoShocked wrote:The Gatorade Sports Institute and Professor Jeukendrup who works with them are a good place to start.
http://www.gssiweb.org/publications/all
Gatorade appear to actually be interested in Sports Science unlike a few of the the everyday brands.
Much of the research that has been done showing the benefits of sports drinks in the past 30-40 years has been funded by companies like Gatorade. Gatorade are only interested in selling Gatorade. To think anything else is pure delusion.
He asks for brands which support their products with literature, so I provided a link. Most sports products are just examples of good marketing, right down to whey protein, which as a waste product of the Milk Industry, can be bought in incredible bulk for a pittance. Whack Gold standard on the label and you're banging it out for nearly £30 a kilo. That being said, you can't rubbish Jeukendrups entire career as he's done a bit of work for Gatorade. Unfortunately most publications are behind a paywall so most people don't have the option of looking any further than an abstract to make their own conclusions on research.
I'm sure certain publications do have vested interests. Perhaps people should, like with most things in life, take them with a pinch of salt (or electrolytes
)
(As an aside, I always enjoyed a couple of bottles of flat, watered down Cola after a couple of hours of racing!)"A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:hypster wrote:ShockedSoShocked wrote:The Gatorade Sports Institute and Professor Jeukendrup who works with them are a good place to start.
http://www.gssiweb.org/publications/all
Gatorade appear to actually be interested in Sports Science unlike a few of the the everyday brands.
Much of the research that has been done showing the benefits of sports drinks in the past 30-40 years has been funded by companies like Gatorade. Gatorade are only interested in selling Gatorade. To think anything else is pure delusion.
He asks for brands which support their products with literature, so I provided a link. Most sports products are just examples of good marketing, right down to whey protein, which as a waste product of the Milk Industry, can be bought in incredible bulk for a pittance. Whack Gold standard on the label and you're banging it out for nearly £30 a kilo. That being said, you can't rubbish Jeukendrups entire career as he's done a bit of work for Gatorade. Unfortunately most publications are behind a paywall so most people don't have the option of looking any further than an abstract to make their own conclusions on research.
I'm sure certain publications do have vested interests. Perhaps people should, like with most things in life, take them with a pinch of salt (or electrolytes )
(As an aside, I always enjoyed a couple of bottles of flat, watered down Cola after a couple of hours of racing!)
Apologies for my comments, on reflection maybe it was a bit strong. I didn't mean to imply that there was no value in drinking Gatorade but some of the claims made for commercial products can be a bit misleading. I went to the reference link you provided and there is a lot of useful information there which will take some time to wade through.0 -
I'm appalled people question the marketing from Gatorade and other sports drink companies.
Asker Jeukendrup, wrote a book with Geert Leinders, the notorious dope doctor, who worked for Sky after he worked with and managed the doping program for the Rabobank team, where Jeukendrup also worked as a nutritional advisor for a time.
No, it would be outrageous to rubbish Jeukendrup and all his research just because in June 2011, he was named Global Senior Director of the Gatorade Sports Science Institute (GSSI) at PepsiCo.
Gatorade are a Team Sky sponsor and Sir Bradley and Lord Froome use their products. I'm appalled people continue to cast iniquitous aspersions. The moderators should do something about this.0 -
Stalin wrote:Gatorade are a Team Sky sponsor and Sir Bradley and Lord Froome use their products.
Gatorade are not on the sponsor list for 2014. The green bottles have gone. Replaced by blue 'Sky' bottles.0 -
Imposter wrote:Stalin wrote:Gatorade are a Team Sky sponsor and Sir Bradley and Lord Froome use their products.
Gatorade are not on the sponsor list for 2014. The green bottles have gone. Replaced by blue 'Sky' bottles.
I stand corrected. Sky used to use Gatorade. Same as they used to employ bent doctors and riders and coaches who used to dope.0 -
Stalin wrote:Imposter wrote:Stalin wrote:Gatorade are a Team Sky sponsor and Sir Bradley and Lord Froome use their products.
Gatorade are not on the sponsor list for 2014. The green bottles have gone. Replaced by blue 'Sky' bottles.
I stand corrected. Sky used to use Gatorade. Same as they used to employ bent doctors and riders and coaches who used to dope.
Fascinating - but what's that got to do with electrolyte drinks?0 -
Anything else you guys want to turn into a pointless debate?
Ikea furniture? Homebase range of compost bags? Double yellow lines?
Stick to the topic, which is Electrolyte sports drinks, not doping, not Team Sky... if you don't have anything to add to the topic, find something else to do tonight....left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Anything else you guys want to turn into a pointless debate?
Ikea furniture? Homebase range of compost bags? Double yellow lines?
Stick to the topic, which is Electrolyte sports drinks, not doping, not Team Sky... if you don't have anything to add to the topic, find something else to do tonight....
People should read Waterlogged by Tim Noakes. Someone else mentioned Gatorade first, it it is hardly my fault Gatorade were a Team Sky sponsor and hardly my fault Team Sky employed Geert Leinders.
Now if people want to keep Sky and doping from being discussed on cycling forums perhaps they should ask the likes of Gatorade to stop sponsoring pro cycling teams.0 -
ddraver wrote:Do you have anything useful to add about the science of how electrolytes aid water absorbtion?
Read Waterlogged by Tim Noakes.
It is a myth people need to add electrolytes to their water. Humans like all other mammals balance these things naturally.
The salty sweater is another myth. If you have too much salt in your body your sweat will be salty. A slice of pizza probably contains enough salt to last you a month. There is so much salt in the junk most idiots eat day in day out that the last thing they need to do is add salt to their water.
The body absorbs water, it does not need electrolytes to be added to it.0 -
ddraver wrote:*Deep Breath* Oh well we tried guys, it was fun while it lasted...
Thanks to the people on the first page who tried to discuss the matter in hand before the trolls found us.
On the first page you spoke to a high level racer who told you isotonic drinks increase the rate of water absorption.
Now when you are told to read what Tim Noakes has to say, you start shouting troll.
Instead of shouting troll, read this.
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e473 ... lhsQ%3D%3D0 -
Stalin wrote:ddraver wrote:*Deep Breath* Oh well we tried guys, it was fun while it lasted...
Thanks to the people on the first page who tried to discuss the matter in hand before the trolls found us.
On the first page you spoke to a high level racer who told you isotonic drinks increase the rate of water absorption.
Now when you are told to read what Tim Noakes has to say, you start shouting troll.
Instead of shouting troll, read this.
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e473 ... lhsQ%3D%3D
I read that carefully yesterday. It says VERY LITTLE that could be considered conclusive about the function of sports drinks (and most, if not all, are the type sold in bottles rather than the tablets that the OP really wants to know about). Mostly it just says the following:
1. Most of the research on sports drinks is funded by the sports drinks industry (no surprise there)
2. Only some of the research is of a high quality (note that it doesn't say that it's ALL rubbish)
3. There's very little evidence that sports drinks don't work and surmises (but doesn't prove) that the sports drinks industry blocks this research and publication (smacks of conspiracy theory).
4. Taking too many calories and being sedentary makes you fat. Sports drinks are meant to be used by athletes not coach potatoes.
They are the key things I took away from that. I suppose it's ironic that some pros drink diluted Coke.
Let's not confuse salt (NaCl) with salts either please. Talk of pizza is just silly.
Can someone point me towards Noakes' high quality research that shows that sports drinks (hypotonic) DON'T work?
There's some really spurious research about (like the bit about TT cyclists - I'd be surprised if TT cyclists actually needed to drink anything).
If water is all you need, why is it that you don't see the highest-paid athletes drinking (branded) water? Tennis players, for instance, often drink coloured drinks from clear unbranded bottles. Why would that be? They have effectively unlimited resources in this area and huge amounts of money to be made from marginal gains. They aren't selling anything. Why would it be?ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Stalin wrote:The salty sweater is another myth. If you have too much salt in your body your sweat will be salty.
This does make sense. An old training partner of mine used to produce white 'tide marks' of sweat all over his clothing every time we went out, even when it wasn't hot. One day I went round to his house for a meal and could hardly eat anything his wife made as she put so much salt into everything for the 'taste'. They were totally used to eating this much salt but to me it was practically inedible. No wonder he sweated out so much salt when he went out training!"an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.0 -
ddraver wrote:Hi All
I'm not trying to start one of the inevitable willy waving competitions that usually accompany these discussions but does anyone have a decent link to some proper science on whether or not isotonic sports drinks (i.e the SIS or high5 electrolite tablets) - ones that are NOT Energy Drinks - have any measurable effect, and over what sort or time/effort?
Just interested really...
David
Having read the BMJ article linked to by Stalin, I am now convinced that it will be almost impossible to get any sort of objective answer to this question. The main problem seems to be that the vast majority of research being done into the effectiveness of sports drinks is funded by the drinks manufacturers themselves. Of course they are going to big up any positive research and bury any negative so you are never going to get a clear picture of what is actually going on. Even if there were any unfunded, objective research going on which came out with a clear, unambiguous result either way, it would get lost in all the other "smoke and mirrors" debate going on.
The problem is further compounded by the fact that a lot of the drinks are being consumed by non-athletic, sedate human beings which is dragging the debate off into the "war on obesity" territory rather than focussing on whether or not they have any ergogenic benefits for athletes.
No one would doubt that energy replenishment is a basic requirement for anyone exercising for a substantial time. The question is whether or not electrolyte replacement has any benefits or is even necessary at all? As far as I can see Tim Noakes' message is quite clear that it is not necessary but his message is also being drowned out by all the controversy surrounding the subject. Whether or not you actually subscribe to his view or not it does at least provide an objective counterpoint to what the drinks companies are pushing with all their commercial vested interest.
In the absence of any clear data what I would suggest is everyone will have to try it for themselves. I don't see it doing any harm, unless of course you take it to excess. Whether or not it provides any positive advantage to all individuals in all circumstances is something I doubt we will ever know definitively. That waters have been too muddied to ever get a clear and unequivocal answer to the question.0 -
Yes but the waters were not muddied until Gatorade and the other sports drink companies muddied it.
Noakes covers all this in Waterlogged.0 -
Stalin wrote:Yes but the waters were not muddied until Gatorade and the other sports drink companies muddied it.
Noakes covers all this in Waterlogged.
He might - but, frankly it's pretty much as bad listening to one person (with an agenda of his own) as it is listening to the drinks companies. That's what I find strange about this debate: blind faith that one guy is right without, from what I can see, any objective evidence to support it (at least none that anyone here has pointed to).
That's why I've suggested looking at what top athletes do - you can be pretty certain it what works. Or, better still, try things for yourself and go with the best for you. That's what I've done: tried the isotonic drinks and didn't like them, tried just water but still got cramp, so settled on Zero tabs. Why do they work? Not a clue. Do I care? Frankly, No.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:Stalin wrote:Yes but the waters were not muddied until Gatorade and the other sports drink companies muddied it.
Noakes covers all this in Waterlogged.
He might - but, frankly it's pretty much as bad listening to one person (with an agenda of his own) as it is listening to the drinks companies. That's what I find strange about this debate: blind faith that one guy is right without, from what I can see, any objective evidence to support it (at least none that anyone here has pointed to).
That's why I've suggested looking at what top athletes do - you can be pretty certain it what works. Or, better still, try things for yourself and go with the best for you. That's what I've done: tried the isotonic drinks and didn't like them, tried just water but still got cramp, so settled on Zero tabs. Why do they work? Not a clue. Do I care? Frankly, No.
If you read the book you will find that the last 30% of the book contains all the references to the research. All the scientific evidence is there. It isn't a case of blind faith, Noakes is a real scientist.0
