Jumping Red Lights

iPete

Ai_1 wrote:

I'm not about to play your little game.
Breaking red lights is illegal, irresponsible, selfish, disrespectful and socially detrimental to all cyclists.

but

iPete wrote:

If a cyclist runs a red in the early hours of the morning and no one is around to see it, did it ever happen?

Can't tempt you with a little game?

Joeblack

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

My general philosophy is this, if I'm not going to cause a accident or get myself killed then it's safe and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok.

And as for the legal eagles out there, have you never gone above 30 in a 30? Or smoked pot...or done anything illegal ever??? C'mon!! Loosen up your knicker straps.

darkhairedlord

if they poop in my garden.... just been revoked! BAM!

darkhairedlord

if you rlj, thanks, keep it up, Darwin will take care of you.
Honestly, you wonder why so many in the daily heil bang on about cyclists, we all get it in the neck because of these fools.

ai_1

Joeblack wrote:

....My general philosophy is this, if I'm not going to cause a accident or get myself killed then it's safe and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok....

Here's the big problem, you and those like you DO cause accidents merely by provoking the ire of motorists who consider cyclists collectively as inconsiderate/irresponsible pests who don't belong on the roads.
You are an inconsiderate/irresponsible pests who doesn't belong on the roads. Unfortunately we all get bundled in to the same category with you and I'm just as likely to suffer the consequences of your actions.

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars...

If you place yourself correctly at a junction, make sure you're seen and pull off promptly when the lights change you'll be just fine - you'll beat cars off the line anyway so you're still initially ahead of the masses. What evidence do you have that breaking the lights is safer? Are you routinely run over when you pull off after the light changes.

I do wait for the lights "and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok" so using your own logic there's nothing dangerous about waiting for the lights. Your argument is null. You're just making excuses for doing what you like and screw the rest.

chris_bass

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

My general philosophy is this, if I'm not going to cause a accident or get myself killed then it's safe and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok.

And as for the legal eagles out there, have you never gone above 30 in a 30? Or smoked pot...or done anything illegal ever??? C'mon!! Loosen up your knicker straps.

in the film "Meet Joe Black" he dies right at the start getting hit by a car! so be careful out there joeblack!!

chris_bass

I can honestly say I have only ever once jumped a red light.

It had fallen over or been hit by a car or something, they are just too high otherwise!

Joeblack

Chris Bass wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

My general philosophy is this, if I'm not going to cause a accident or get myself killed then it's safe and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok.

And as for the legal eagles out there, have you never gone above 30 in a 30? Or smoked pot...or done anything illegal ever??? C'mon!! Loosen up your knicker straps.

in the film "Meet Joe Black" he dies right at the start getting hit by a car! so be careful out there joeblack!!

Not whilst he's on a bike he doesn't

Joeblack

Ai_1 wrote:

I do wait for the lights "and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok" so using your own logic there's nothing dangerous about waiting for the lights. Your argument is null. You're just making excuses for doing what you like and screw the rest.

Ever cycled during rush hour in the capital?

vertigo16

There are different ends to the spectrum of RLJing. On the one hand is doing it "dangerously" (eg. rush hour, eyes closed, slowly), and the other hand is doing it with no or next to no incremental risk to yourself and/or other people (eg. middle of the night, nobody around, pedestrian crossing with nobody on it).

No, laws are not all created equal - or to save getting into that entire debate, at the very least their application is not equal. A slightly different question is whether the fact something is illegal in law means individuals should choose not to do it, but that is also a whole debate in itself.

To summarise though: I don't RLJ as a rule and I genuinely can't remember any time I have. In most of the circumstances in which I see it done (daily) I think it's at best an unhelpful thing to do, and at worst downright dangerous.

To say that I absolutely never would though is ridiculous. After all, most people would kill in the right circumstances so why the hell would they not jump a red light!!??

mattsaw

I've never understood the safety argument for jumping a red light.

If you're so worried about being safe at a junction, take primary behind the last vehicle. You won't get squashed, you won't get overtaken until you're ready, and you'll have a much better road position.

I would have a lot more respect if people justified it as they couldn't be bothered to wait and think of themselves as better than everyone else. I have the same contempt for them as people who push onto trains before letting others off. Ultimately (mostly) harmless, but simply some of lifes tw@ts

slowbike

Joeblack wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

I do wait for the lights "and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok" so using your own logic there's nothing dangerous about waiting for the lights. Your argument is null. You're just making excuses for doing what you like and screw the rest.

Ever cycled during rush hour in the capital?

by RLJ you are helping to make cycling unsafe for the rest of us - you're angering drivers and helping perpetuate the myth that all cyclists jump red lights. We all get tarred with the brush meant for you.

There are plenty of cyclists in the capital who do not RLJ - why not join them and stop being a dick.

ilovegrace

We should not , but we do.

gozzy

To be honest, given the number of car drivers that run red lights, speed and make however many other illegal manouvres, i reckon motorists are on pretty shaky ground to complain about cyclists behaviour. So sod em. Next time a driver calls you out about an rlj, ask them how many amber/reds they've run that day or whether they've stuck to the speed limit. Chances are that the moral high ground will come crumbling down. And they'll want to hit you even more, the dickheads.

Joeblack

I think you'll find the thing that pisses drivers off the most about cyclists is that they have to slow down because of you! So generally they'll probably be pleased

Seriously though your holier than thou attitudes are ridiculous.

mpie

Gozzy wrote:

To be honest, given the number of car drivers that run red lights, speed and make however many other illegal manouvres, i reckon motorists are on pretty shaky ground to complain about cyclists behaviour. So sod em. Next time a driver calls you out about an rlj, ask them how many amber/reds they've run that day or whether they've stuck to the speed limit. Chances are that the moral high ground will come crumbling down. And they'll want to hit you even more, the dickheads.

It's funny. Take the above paragraph, swap 'motorist' with 'cyclist' and post it to the Daily Mail. It fits in perfectly! OK, apart from the speed limit bit, I admit. But you get the point? This is all just sounding like a race to the ethical bottom: "I reserve the right to be ethically no better than anyone else!"

mpie

Joeblack wrote:

I think you'll find the thing that pisses drivers off the most about cyclists is that they have to slow down because of you! So generally they'll probably be pleased

That and the fact that deep down they know that the cyclist is happier than they are. Got to love endorphines!

Slo Mo Jones

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

This is what I do - always stop, but often push off just before the lights change to get clipped in and going again before I've got the traffic going past me. That has to be safer for everyone, surely?

Joeblack

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

This is what I do - always stop, but often push off just before the lights change to get clipped in and going again before I've got the traffic going past me. That has to be safer for everyone, surely?

Well not according to most on here, their logic is you're agitating drivers who then drive dangerously and cause accidents elsewhere because they are angry at us!

And iv heard it whispered that you're causing starvation in Africa... It's the butterfly effect, you know it makes sense.


Someone think of THE CHILDREN!!!

vimfuego

When I read the title for this post I thought it was about some sort of phenomenon like Mexican Jumping Beans. Sadly mistaken.

Anyway, as someone pointed out above, stop obsessing about RLJ'ers it will just eat you up inside and turn you into a holier than though pr*ck with high blood pressure. Just do the right thing with your own ride - don't RLJ, be nice & give a thankyou wave when a car or bus lets you out, and shoulder check before you move. Let the spanners RLJ and allow Darwin to do the rest.

guinea

Ai_1 wrote:

Here's the big problem, you and those like you DO cause accidents merely by provoking the ire of motorists who consider cyclists collectively as inconsiderate/irresponsible pests who don't belong on the roads.
You are an inconsiderate/irresponsible pests who doesn't belong on the roads. Unfortunately we all get bundled in to the same category with you and I'm just as likely to suffer the consequences of your actions.

Balls.

Give me evidence of one case where an unsuspecting cyclist was hit by a car because the driver saw another cyclist jump some red lights.

It doesn't happen.

People who complain about cyclists jumping red lights are idiots. How many injuries are caused by this offence every year. Compare that to cars braking the law and you'll see that there isn't actually a problem.

Go to Belgium or the Netherlands and watch as cyclists ride on the pavement, ride the wrong way up one way streets, jump red lights and never wear helmets. The drivers never get worked up, nobody gets hurt and nobody gets stressed. The whole RLJ argument is based on car drivers grumping about having to share space with slower vehicles and is nothing to do with actual facts.

If we accepted that cyclists will break red lights, but they should be mindful of other road users (especially pedestrians) then the world would be a better place.

For the avoidance of doubt, there are plenty places on my commute it is FAR safer to go when the green man flashes at the end of the traffic signal cycle.

adr82

Mattsaw wrote:

If you're so worried about being safe at a junction, take primary behind the last vehicle. You won't get squashed, you won't get overtaken until you're ready, and you'll have a much better road position.

Oh hush with your extremely sensible and safe ideas, you'll only confuse all these poor idiots who think it's absolutely 100% super-duper essential that they do whatever it takes to get to the front of any queue of traffic, no matter the amount of ridiculous filtering required or whether the lights are about to change leaving them stranded between lanes or whether it'll involve going down the inside of a left-turning HGV.

Coincidentally there's a rather large overlap between people who do this and people who, having reached the front of a queue, continue gaily on through the lights "because safety lolz" :roll:

chris_bass

On a brighter note, its really sunny here today!

ai_1

Joeblack wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

I do wait for the lights "and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok" so using your own logic there's nothing dangerous about waiting for the lights. Your argument is null. You're just making excuses for doing what you like and screw the rest.

Ever cycled during rush hour in the capital?

Which capital?

mpie

Joeblack wrote:

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

This is what I do - always stop, but often push off just before the lights change to get clipped in and going again before I've got the traffic going past me. That has to be safer for everyone, surely?

Well not according to most on here, their logic is you're agitating drivers who then drive dangerously and cause accidents elsewhere because they are angry at us!

Not quite. The logic is more that if cyclists are perceived to ignore the law then they can't expect the law to protect them either. You reap as you sow. I don't think 'anger' comes into it most of the time.

Joeblack

mpie wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

This is what I do - always stop, but often push off just before the lights change to get clipped in and going again before I've got the traffic going past me. That has to be safer for everyone, surely?

Well not according to most on here, their logic is you're agitating drivers who then drive dangerously and cause accidents elsewhere because they are angry at us!

Not quite. The logic is more that if cyclists are perceived to ignore the law then they can't expect the law to protect them either. You reap as you sow. I don't think 'anger' comes into it most of the time.

The last sentence actually made me laugh out loud! You my man are clueless.

vimfuego

Ai_1 wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

I do wait for the lights "and as I'm here typing today without ever causing a accident or dying then clearly I'm doing ok" so using your own logic there's nothing dangerous about waiting for the lights. Your argument is null. You're just making excuses for doing what you like and screw the rest.

Ever cycled during rush hour in the capital?

Which capital?

You know - "The Capital" - It is like something from the Hunger Games at times

ai_1

adr82 wrote:

Mattsaw wrote:

If you're so worried about being safe at a junction, take primary behind the last vehicle. You won't get squashed, you won't get overtaken until you're ready, and you'll have a much better road position.

Oh hush with your extremely sensible and safe ideas, you'll only confuse all these poor idiots who think it's absolutely 100% super-duper essential that they do whatever it takes to get to the front of any queue of traffic, no matter the amount of ridiculous filtering required or whether the lights are about to change leaving them stranded between lanes or whether it'll involve going down the inside of a left-turning HGV.

Coincidentally there's a rather large overlap between people who do this and people who, having reached the front of a queue, continue gaily on through the lights "because safety lolz" :roll:

There's also a suspicious similarity between the people who'll try and justify jumping red lights and call motorists dickheads and the motorists who'll park in a cycle lane or run you off the road and call cyclists dickheads.

So, to clarify:

1. We have cyclists who run red lights and consider motorists dickheads. They will happily suggest that motorists shouldn't complain because they break laws too and have no high moral highground. These guys justify their name calling by telling us how motorists break laws and hate cyclists.

2. We have motorists who don't yield way to cyclists, cut them off, overtake then slam on the brakes, etc. They happily explain that cyclists are dickheads who don't really have a right to be there anyway and who don't even follow the rules of the road, so who are they to complain about how motorists drive.

Strangely, despite the fact that they are identical in every way except their choice of vehicle these two groups are utterly unable to empathise. We can only assume this is due to irrational prejudice, not caring enough to think about it, lack of imagination or just stupidity. If there's another explanation please let me know and don't be shy.

Conclusion:

The problem is not motorists and the problem is not cyclists. The problem is selfishness, ignorance and tribalism.
Thankfully we're not all self-righteous, tribalist, selfish muppets. Though I know several of you wont's understand a word of this. You think I'm the self-righteous one don't you?

vertigo16

Joeblack wrote:

mpie wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

Slo Mo Jones wrote:

Joeblack wrote:

I RLJ all the time esp in London, despite what most think it can actually be safer to pull of on your own rather than with the grouping masses behind you in their cars.

This is what I do - always stop, but often push off just before the lights change to get clipped in and going again before I've got the traffic going past me. That has to be safer for everyone, surely?

Well not according to most on here, their logic is you're agitating drivers who then drive dangerously and cause accidents elsewhere because they are angry at us!

Not quite. The logic is more that if cyclists are perceived to ignore the law then they can't expect the law to protect them either. You reap as you sow. I don't think 'anger' comes into it most of the time.

The last sentence actually made me laugh out loud! You my man are clueless.

That's not quite it though, is it. It's not to do with revenge attacks, or other road users thinking they are morally justified to ignore the laws with respect to you in return for you jumping a red light.

It's about rules of the road (and most laws for that matter) being the best way to ensure road users all behave predictably, in a way which, which in general, keep themselves and each other safest. After all, when you see the lights going amber for the "other" side, and you start to move yourself before the cars behind you get their green light (happy in the moral justification that it's safer for you to do so), surely the car behind you would be just as justified if it started to move early itself too? And what about motorbikes, do you think it's ok for them to RLJ with/without cyclist around?

When you ignore the rules which are designed for the benefit of everyone, you act selfishly for the benefit of yourself. The fact lots of cyclist do it means cyclists in general are seen as unpredictable at best, and dangerous at worst. I can see why that irritates car drivers (and other cyclists). It's difficult to share the road with people who make up their lwn rules.

ai_1

Gozzy wrote:

To be honest, given the number of car drivers that run red lights, speed and make however many other illegal manouvres, i reckon motorists are on pretty shaky ground to complain about cyclists behaviour. So sod em. Next time a driver calls you out about an rlj, ask them how many amber/reds they've run that day or whether they've stuck to the speed limit. Chances are that the moral high ground will come crumbling down. And they'll want to hit you even more, the dickheads.

See my last post. See yourself in there anywhere? No?

So to re-iterate: The exact argument you've made above is why you should NOT jump red lights.
You say jump lights because some car drivers do stuff. Some car drivers say the very same thing about you. Guess who's NOT solving the problem?