Lorry Drivers change places with cyclists

mtb-idle

in Kingston

talius

Think this was happening on Cable St this morning as well

Mikey23

Does that mean that cyclists get to drive an HGV?

ex-pat scot

tried to get me to stop at cable st as well. Loads of PCSOs and nobody stopping to enquire.

veronese68

There were 2 groups undergoing training near my place this morning, looked like primary school children to me. Or are lorry drivers getting younger?

EKE_38BPM

I do the lorry driver training.

The trainees are split into two groups, with half doing a theory based module (I have no idea what they do) and half out on bikes, then the groups swap so every trainee does both the theory and the practical.
For the practical we get the trainees to do a quick version of Bikeability Level 1, basically making sure they are safe to go out on the road, then we take them out onto the road and do a quick version of Bikeability Level 2. We explain cyclists' road positioning (primary, secondary, staying out of the doorzone etc) so that they understand why cyclists do what we do.

The biggest eye opener for them is usually the feeling of vulnerability on a bike. I was snaking with a group when WVM blasted past us with less room than is comfortable and they went ballistic. They all thought that cyclists were nuts but agreed that it is better for motorists to wait for a safe time/place to pass and then pass nice and wide, especially as (in an urban setting) the motorist will probably be stuck in traffic shortly, so will gain next to nothing.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

talius

EKE_38BPM wrote:

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

slowbike

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all

TBH when I'm driving I sometimes shout at cyclists - not that they'd hear me with the windows all done up and the noise of my diesel engine in the 4x4 roaring away ...
I also shout at the annoying presenter on the radio too ...

nothing wrong with a stress relief if it doesn't affect anyone else ...

veronese68

Slowbike wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all

TBH when I'm driving I sometimes shout at cyclists - not that they'd hear me with the windows all done up and the noise of my diesel engine in the 4x4 roaring away ...
I also shout at the annoying presenter on the radio too ...

nothing wrong with a stress relief if it doesn't affect anyone else ...

Do you ever get caught out on the first sunny day when the window is open?
I've never done that of course because that would be silly. :oops:

mar_k

Im both a cyclist and a HGV driver.
I think cyclists should swap places with lorry drivers, well at least go out in a HGV to see the issues we have on a day to day basis.
Im sure more than half of cyclists are not aware of how dangerous it is to creep down the inside of trucks.
I drive artics around the country, very often in central London and often encounter cyclists who put themselves in very dangerous positions. I'd be happy to take fellow cyclists out and show them how it is.
The last thing I want to do is kill anyone. Quite often they position themselves in a complete blind spot where I can't see them at all.

Driver training has improved greatly over the past few years, Also we have many more mirrors fitted and we even have camera's in our trucks,

There are many, many cyclists using the roads who quite frankly have no idea of the rules and judging by lack of balance and control are a accident waiting to happen. I really do feel there should be some form of compulsory cycle training to help make things safer for all.

That said, there are some great cyclists on the road as well. I had a guy pull up on his cycle just the other day along St. james. He said hello and asked if I'd let him pass before the traffic started moving again. He made sure I had seen him and exchanged a pleasant 'Good Morning'

notsoblue

I've noticed that most HGVs do really take care around cyclists. I always try and acknowledge when they let me through or have noticed me etc...

That said, I'm not sure that HGVs should really be in central London.

notsoblue

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I do the lorry driver training.

The trainees are split into two groups, with half doing a theory based module (I have no idea what they do) and half out on bikes, then the groups swap so every trainee does both the theory and the practical.
For the practical we get the trainees to do a quick version of Bikeability Level 1, basically making sure they are safe to go out on the road, then we take them out onto the road and do a quick version of Bikeability Level 2. We explain cyclists' road positioning (primary, secondary, staying out of the doorzone etc) so that they understand why cyclists do what we do.

The biggest eye opener for them is usually the feeling of vulnerability on a bike. I was snaking with a group when WVM blasted past us with less room than is comfortable and they went ballistic. They all thought that cyclists were nuts but agreed that it is better for motorists to wait for a safe time/place to pass and then pass nice and wide, especially as (in an urban setting) the motorist will probably be stuck in traffic shortly, so will gain next to nothing.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

Brilliant!

mar_k

If HGV's wasn't allowed in central London, the cost of things would rise a fair amount.
Transport companies are running on a very tight budget in recent years and often run at a loss on some jobs.
By reducing the size of vehicles allowed into central London the transport operator would need to purchase/hire extra smaller vehicles in order to meet the needs to carry the same amount of goods. This means more drivers needed to drive the extra vehicles,more fuel would be used, more labour to help unload the extra vehicles. All these extra costs would be passed onto the end customer/consumer. Also this would increase the amount of vehicles in central London buy a good 25-30% in my opinion and cause more pollution.

I don't think that banning HGV's is the answer. I strongly believe the introduction of cyclist training will make them far safer.I'm not quite sure some cyclists realise they are responsible for there own safety. Currently anyone can hop on a bike with little or no road knowledge and get themselves hurt or killed, But only skilled/trained drivers can drive HGV's.
I have taken photo's of my view of the road from my cab, I have also posted pictures of what I can see once my lorry starts bending.
I'd take some more if people are interested?

I've noticed a sharp rise in cyclists taking risks and cycling dangerously with the introduction of the Boris bikes.

notsoblue

mar_k wrote:

Currently anyone can hop on a bike with little or no road knowledge and get themselves hurt or killed

Well its how we use roads in this country that makes this so. Having grown up in a country where everyone cycles on the road from a young age, it seems a bit ridiculous that people want cyclists in this country to be trained, licensed and armored to avoid being having their death on their conscience. We need to change the environment, not force cyclists to jump through so many hoops that it remains a niche activity. I think Boardman said it best.

mar_k wrote:

I've noticed a sharp rise in cyclists taking risks and cycling dangerously with the introduction of the Boris bikes.

I think you've just noticed a sharp rise in cyclists.

slowbike

Veronese68 wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all

TBH when I'm driving I sometimes shout at cyclists - not that they'd hear me with the windows all done up and the noise of my diesel engine in the 4x4 roaring away ...
I also shout at the annoying presenter on the radio too ...

nothing wrong with a stress relief if it doesn't affect anyone else ...

Do you ever get caught out on the first sunny day when the window is open?
I've never done that of course because that would be silly. :oops:

No - because if it's sunny I'm on my bike .... dufus!

slowbike

mar_k wrote:

I'm not quite sure some cyclists realise they are responsible for there own safety.

They know they are - they put a helmet and hi-viz jacket on and they're safe .... everything else is someone else's responsibility ...

mar_k

notsoblue wrote:

mar_k wrote:

Currently anyone can hop on a bike with little or no road knowledge and get themselves hurt or killed

Well its how we use roads in this country that makes this so. Having grown up in a country where everyone cycles on the road from a young age, it seems a bit ridiculous that people want cyclists in this country to be trained, licensed and armored to avoid being having their death on their conscience. We need to change the environment, not force cyclists to jump through so many hoops that it remains a niche activity. I think Boardman said it best.

mar_k wrote:

I've noticed a sharp rise in cyclists taking risks and cycling dangerously with the introduction of the Boris bikes.

I think you've just noticed a sharp rise in cyclists.

Whilst you would expect this, its rather the opposite. Many road users really seem to have no clue. Whilst road safety is common sense for most of us, there seems to be many with no clue at all. . Ive seen a fair amount of very nervous cyclists who are very indecisive in their actions which presents a danger on its own, again mostly boris riders.
I don't agree cycles should be licensed, but I strongly believe training is the way forward for people who wish to use the public highways. Even if its going over the highway code and explaining the dangers.

notsoblue

mar_k wrote:

Whilst you would expect this, its rather the opposite. Many road users really seem to have no clue. Whilst road safety is common sense for most of us, there seems to be many with no clue at all. . Ive seen a fair amount of very nervous cyclists who are very indecisive in their actions which presents a danger on its own, again mostly boris riders.
I don't agree cycles should be licensed, but I strongly believe training is the way forward for people who wish to use the public highways. Even if its going over the highway code and explaining the dangers.

I think its pretty reasonable to be nervous when you're on a narrow road and you're being overtaken by a HGV at 30-40mph, no matter how much training you have.

Guanajuato

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I do the lorry driver training.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

Should be a compulsory part of HGV driver training - no license without doing this. Should also be a compulsory part of the general driver training.

EKE_38BPM

Guanajuato wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I do the lorry driver training.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

Should be a compulsory part of HGV driver training - no license without doing this. Should also be a compulsory part of the general driver training.

Well I'm not going to disagree with that, am I!

mar_k

Guanajuato wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I do the lorry driver training.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

Should be a compulsory part of HGV driver training - no license without doing this. Should also be a compulsory part of the general driver training.

Why should HGV drivers do yet more training, but cyclist don't have to have any?
As a HGV driver I already have to endure 35hours CPC periodic training as well as a theory test and practical driving test in order to drive the things.
The CPC is utter rubbish and covers what we already know so it's 35hours of pointless training.
Perhaps we should have compulsory cycle training every 5 years to remind some cyclists how to use the roads properly.
I love cycling and the vast majority of cyclists I encounter on the roads are very pleasant, but I'm sick and tired of having people pick and moan about lorry drivers. None of us go out in the morning with the aim to run people over or crush a cyclist, But when things do go wrong regardless of who's at fault the driver is usually arrested.
This is unfair as we have had training and are licensed to drive HGV's. If I have made the relevant checks before I start my maneuver or turn and have decided it's clear, What can I do if a cyclist squeezes down the inside once I've started to turn and can no longer see? No amount of driver training will stop that, But cyclist training would. I know there are bad lorry drivers out there. Im not defending them, but we already have so much training. I feel its about time fellow cyclists shared the load and took on some training of their own. It works both ways. Perhaps maybe if both sides were getting trained we may just see an improvement in road safety.

Brakeless

mar_k wrote:

Guanajuato wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I do the lorry driver training.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

Should be a compulsory part of HGV driver training - no license without doing this. Should also be a compulsory part of the general driver training.

Why should HGV drivers do yet more training, but cyclist don't have to have any?
As a HGV driver I already have to endure 35hours CPC periodic training as well as a theory test and practical driving test in order to drive the things.
The CPC is utter rubbish and covers what we already know so it's 35hours of pointless training.
Perhaps we should have compulsory cycle training every 5 years to remind some cyclists how to use the roads properly.
I love cycling and the vast majority of cyclists I encounter on the roads are very pleasant, but I'm sick and tired of having people pick and moan about lorry drivers. None of us go out in the morning with the aim to run people over or crush a cyclist, But when things do go wrong regardless of who's at fault the driver is usually arrested.
This is unfair as we have had training and are licensed to drive HGV's. If I have made the relevant checks before I start my maneuver or turn and have decided it's clear, What can I do if a cyclist squeezes down the inside once I've started to turn and can no longer see? No amount of driver training will stop that, But cyclist training would. I know there are bad lorry drivers out there. Im not defending them, but we already have so much training. I feel its about time fellow cyclists shared the load and took on some training of their own. It works both ways. Perhaps maybe if both sides were getting trained we may just see an improvement in road safety.

How many lorry drivers deaths have involved cyclists?

How many cyclists deaths have involved lorrys?

You're sick of people moaning about lorry drivers, I think you'll find far more idiots complaining about cyclists.

EKE_38BPM

mar_k wrote:

Guanajuato wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I do the lorry driver training.

One of my best experiences was with a HGV driver who was very anti-cyclist initially: "Farking cyclists! I'm always shouting at them! Riding in the middle of the farking road! Must have a farking death wish!!!"
By the end of the session he was the most changed trainee I've ever had: "Now when I shout at cyclists it'll be to tell them to get out of the faking doorzone! TAKE THE FARKING LANE!!"
I suggested to him that he shouldn't shout at cyclists at all but he replied with a big smile "One farking step at a time, eh?"

Should be a compulsory part of HGV driver training - no license without doing this. Should also be a compulsory part of the general driver training.

Why should HGV drivers do yet more training, but cyclist don't have to have any?

In London, HGVs are about 5% of the traffic and are involved in about 50% of cyclist deaths. Seems like a disproportionate amount of fatalities to me. Maybe the ones doing the killing should be the ones who do the training?

mar_k wrote:

As a HGV driver I already have to endure 35hours CPC periodic training as well as a theory test and practical driving test in order to drive the things.
The CPC is utter rubbish and covers what we already know so it's 35hours of pointless training.

All of that training and yet HGVs are involved in about 50% of cyclist deaths. Its almost as if these drivers haven't been on a bike since they passed their driving test when they were 17 and can't remember (or never have) ridden a bike on the road and therefore don't know what its like to be on a bike when a vehicle passes at speed.
Training the HGV drivers why cyclists do what they do, and why, changes their attitudes. Giving them experience of the road on a bike reinforces what they have been told.

mar_k wrote:

Perhaps we should have compulsory cycle training every 5 years to remind some cyclists how to use the roads properly.

So you now not only want compulsory cycle training but it must be redone every 5 years?! A car driver gets tested once and car drivers kill waaaaaay more people than cyclists do (I think it is 1 pedestrian death caused, tenuously, by a cyclist). How often should drivers be retested?

mar_k wrote:

I love cycling and the vast majority of cyclists I encounter on the roads are very pleasant, but I'm sick and tired of having people pick and moan about lorry drivers. None of us go out in the morning with the aim to run people over or crush a cyclist, But when things do go wrong regardless of who's at fault the driver is usually arrested.
This is unfair as we have had training and are licensed to drive HGV's. If I have made the relevant checks before I start my maneuver or turn and have decided it's clear, What can I do if a cyclist squeezes down the inside once I've started to turn and can no longer see? No amount of driver training will stop that, But cyclist training would. I know there are bad lorry drivers out there. Im not defending them, but we already have so much training. I feel its about time fellow cyclists shared the load and took on some training of their own. It works both ways. Perhaps maybe if both sides were getting trained we may just see an improvement in road safety.

If a HGV starts a manoeuvre after doing all of the proper checks and a cyclist squeezes down the inside, there is nothing the driver do as the cyclist can't be seen from the cab. That is a problem with the design of the vehicle but the cyclist should have the common sense not to do it and/or training .

If a cyclist makes a mistake it is the cyclist who usually pays. If a HGV driver makes a mistake it is rare for the HGV driver to be hurt.
That sense of invunerability leads to innappropriate speed, close passes and bullying tactics on the road. Getting HGV drivers out on bikes opens their eyes to what its like being on a bike. Cyclists sitting in a HGV's cab opens cyclist's eyes as to what HGV drivers can (or rather can't) see, but that doesn't need to be redone every 5 years.

I think training for cyclists is a good thing but I think cycle training for HGV drivers is a brilliant thing as it is HGV drivers that are doing the killing and the cyclist who are getting killed.

Going back to the compulsory cycle training every 5 years for "some" cyclists (who decides who the "some" are?), how often are HGV drivers retested? Genuine question.

EKE_38BPM

I was doing an event which involved cyclists sitting in the cab of an HGV and started talking to a member of the public (I think he was a driver of vehicles for the construction industry) and one of the many clever things he said to me was that all cyclists should wear a special colour hi-viz vest to identify them to other road users.
He then went on to say that pedestrians should also wear a different colour hi-viz.
I think the previously mentioned love of hi-viz in the construction industry has (brightly) coloured his opinion.

awavey

mar_k wrote:

Why should HGV drivers do yet more training, but cyclist don't have to have any?
As a HGV driver I already have to endure 35hours CPC periodic training as well as a theory test and practical driving test in order to drive the things.
The CPC is utter rubbish and covers what we already know so it's 35hours of pointless training.
Perhaps we should have compulsory cycle training every 5 years to remind some cyclists how to use the roads properly.
I love cycling and the vast majority of cyclists I encounter on the roads are very pleasant, but I'm sick and tired of having people pick and moan about lorry drivers. None of us go out in the morning with the aim to run people over or crush a cyclist, But when things do go wrong regardless of who's at fault the driver is usually arrested.
This is unfair as we have had training and are licensed to drive HGV's. If I have made the relevant checks before I start my maneuver or turn and have decided it's clear, What can I do if a cyclist squeezes down the inside once I've started to turn and can no longer see? No amount of driver training will stop that, But cyclist training would. I know there are bad lorry drivers out there. Im not defending them, but we already have so much training. I feel its about time fellow cyclists shared the load and took on some training of their own. It works both ways. Perhaps maybe if both sides were getting trained we may just see an improvement in road safety.

ok so just explain to me then as a cyclist who doesnt drive a truck, when (note not if) an HGV overtakes me at 30mph and leaves me about a foot clearance of a gap, to the point I feel I have to jump onto the nearest pavement or take avoiding action to stop getting pulled under the rear wheels. how more training for me, fixes that, what am I doing wrong in that instance ? does the driver even realise thats not an acceptable size width gap to leave ?

or how when a truck only partially overtakes me and then turns immediately right, only it does so by taking an arc back to the left towards the space Im still in, so I have to virtually stop, how does more training for me as the cyclist fix that, why did the guy try and overtake ? again what am I doing wrong that more training for me fixes?

because if Im riding unsafely on the road, then Id grab your hand off for any extra training if I thought it would improve my chances at not being squished by several tens of tonnes of metal driven by someone stressed to meet a time deadline,driving on unfamiliar roads, and with very little quality sleep behind them.

but where Im sitting on my bike that training wouldnt be worth my time, and Id far rather grab your hand to drive a truck and teach truck drivers on a set of bikes exactly what it feels like to have 40 tonnes of truck pass you with less than a foots clearance at 30-40mph, how the way your whole body can tense up on the bike as you hear a truck thundering along at speed behind you as you know the pass is coming and it could be a bad one as you start wondering how much room is this pass going to leave me, do I need to plan escape routes, where are the barriers hemming me in, how bad will the draft be. because I bet none of them have a clue what thats like.

you talk about nervous cyclists, absolutely right cyclists should be nervous around trucks, a moments lapse and you will be history. Ive said many times on this I will never cycle up the leftside of a truck, but that doesnt stop the truck putting me in harms way.

mar_k

Quick reply as im queing to get into Earls Court. In response to awavey there is no excuse for close passes. Sadly there are some idiots who drive lorries and im doubtful that the driver training spoken about further up the thread would change their attitudes. I do agree with most points on here and do see the vulnerability points as well. I just feel training on both sides is needed rather than singling the hgv drivers out. If both sides are willing to accept training surely things would improve?
On my 5mile commute from Islington to Tottenham this at 4.30am morning I passed roughly 6 other cyclists. I was the only one with lights on, some of them were wearing dark clothing aswell as no lights. Perhaps training would benefit these types of cyclists but the only way to reach them is to provide training for ALL cyclists. Also, as a driver we don't have to be retested but we do receive 35hours of training every 5 years or broken down into yearly blocks which was the reason for me referencing the 5 year thing. Im really not trying to cause a fight. I just want cyclist to take some responsibility and have some training of their own. Surely it can only help? ill try and pick up all other points ive missed when i get the chance. Now i need to drive over to earls court from seagrave road.

ddraver

What about having the option if you re caught RLJing (or whatever) to pay the fine or attend a less expensive cycling training course as per Speeding..?

I know it won't catch everyone but it might help those that it would....

Kieran_Burns

mar_k wrote:

Quick reply as im queing to get into Earls Court. In response to awavey there is no excuse for close passes. Sadly there are some idiots who drive lorries and im doubtful that the driver training spoken about further up the thread would change their attitudes. I do agree with most points on here and do see the vulnerability points as well. I just feel training on both sides is needed rather than singling the hgv drivers out. If both sides are willing to accept training surely things would improve?
On my 5mile commute from Islington to Tottenham this at 4.30am morning I passed roughly 6 other cyclists. I was the only one with lights on, some of them were wearing dark clothing aswell as no lights. Perhaps training would benefit these types of cyclists but the only way to reach them is to provide training for ALL cyclists. Also, as a driver we don't have to be retested but we do receive 35hours of training every 5 years or broken down into yearly blocks which was the reason for me referencing the 5 year thing. Im really not trying to cause a fight. I just want cyclist to take some responsibility and have some training of their own. Surely it can only help? ill try and pick up all other points ive missed when i get the chance. Now i need to drive over to earls court from seagrave road.

Actually proper enforcement would solve the issue much more quickly. Hit 'em in the wallet first. Personally I'd love to see the Police stood there stopping cyclists without lights and sell them a set on the spot for an inflated sum. Then make them fit them and cycle away with them on.

This way: everyday they see the lights they are reminded and leave the incident chagrined and safe.

mar_k

I quickly like both the above ideas. Very good indeed.

notsoblue

They're good ideas, but they don't really tackle the primary issue. I wonder how many of the cyclist casualties went through red and didn't have lights equipped...

The primary issue is that vulnerable cyclists (not road warriors like our good selves) are being forced to share limited road space with 30 tonne vehicles.

cookeeemonster

notsoblue wrote:

They're good ideas, but they don't really tackle the primary issue. I wonder how many of the cyclist casualties went through red and didn't have lights equipped...

From what I've read very, very few are as a result of cyclists doing this.

The last lot of stats I saw put drivers soley to blame for 69% of deaths/serious injuries, cyclists at 9% and the rest a combination of the two or 'other'. Not sure if it was the same source but cyclists breaking the law made up something like 5 or 6% or the ksi's - that tells you an awful lot.

This argument in this thread also ignores something else - the huge death toll of pedestrians (half of them on ped crossings) that dwarfs cyclist deaths and again, are a result of the might is right attitude of certain drivers on our roads.