clipins or flats - the science behind it

rockmonkeysc

Even at regional level downhill races most of the more competitive riders use spds.

The secret rider

Yet if you browse MBUK most of the guys on the bikes they feature are on flats. . . ?

I agree about the XC stuff and can also relate to the nerves fitting them for more extreame AM / Trails

Briggo

Who cares what others do, just do what feels comfortable for you.

I don't find my feet slipping on the downhills at all with my Shimano AM41s, additionally the fact you're in the attack position means you're putting practically all your weight on the pedals to help anchor, unless you're jumping/unweighting the bike but even then.

Additionally pedalling on rough terrain requires more power to be applied and thus forcing more weight onto the feet/pedals to power through.

The only time I find my feet slipping is when I'm steadily pedaling a flat-ish area, then throw in the psychological fact I know I can get off the bike in a nasty situation means I'm more likely to go for it over the rough stuff.

Well I find thats the case for me anyway

rockmonkeysc

That's pretty much what I thought before trying spds for downhill. I was very surprised.
The whole thing about not being able to unclip when it all goes bad put me off for a long time as well but it has never turned out to be a problem, they always unclip when I need them to.

ednino

Clipped in, on all my bikes

can't ride flats anymore, feels awful!

fizik

Clipped in for both, not sure they give that much advantage power wise when on the mtb and like them more for security, but they definitely help on the road if doing long stints at speed, giving extra pull on the upstroke pedal by rotating your foot up towards your shin. That's how I do it anyway not sure if its the correct way but simply pulling up can damage your knees I have heard if you don't ease into it.

YIMan

Clipped-in. Road, commuting, MTB even in the Alps. I very rarely pull up on the pedals (standing up on a hard uphill is the only occasion I can think of).....but I like the solidity/consistency of being attached to the pedals in the same place every time on every bike.

shindig

Been a SPD'er for 22 years. Changed to flats last year after i forgot my SPD shoes on a vacation to Aviemore. Having lots more fun but never thought I would change from being clipped in and not sure I would go back to SPD's. Ride XC and AM.

kevinharley

nicklouse wrote:

[What ever you do DO NOT go for the spd one side flat the other. They are truly bad. If you have absolutely no idea go for cheap flats.

Dual-sided have their uses - I have them on my commuter / work bike, because I wear 'normal' clothes and shoes for commuting and doing my work visits, but as this bike also doubles as my (approximation to a) road bike, I use the clipless side when doing a 'proper' road ride (albeit with MTB spd shoes!)

For the MTB, clipless all the way! I like my feet to feel secure on the pedals, and not subjected to being bounced off or slipping off in the wet. I find it useful for climbing eg, when getting to a rock / step where the normal pedal stroke would hit the rock, its easier in my experience to back-pedal slightly in order to avoid the pedal hitting the rock.

I have my clipless pedals at the loosest tension setting, unclipping when dabbing (or falling off!) has become instinctive for the most part. For steep, rocky, technical descents, I find the limiting factor is my fear of going over the bars, not being unable to unclip or put a foot down, so would get off and walk ( :roll: yeah, I know!!) the sections I don't fancy, irrespective of pedals. I think I've probably become more confident descending steep / techy stuff because I ride clipless, because it has forced me to learn to approach such sections with the right speed, balancing of my body, steering and braking input etc, rather than just taking a punt knowing I could dab if needed ...

The secret rider

i am confused you say you have become more confident because you DO ride clipless knowing you cant dab if needed ?

rockmonkeysc

But can very easily dab a foot when clipped unless your pedals are overtightened.

kevinharley

The secret rider wrote:

i am confused you say you have become more confident because you DO ride clipless knowing you cant dab if needed ?

I think what I am trying to say (perhaps not very well!) is that if I just had flats, I would be more likely to approach steep/techy stuff thinking "if I get in bother, I'll just put a foot down" rather than approaching it working out the best speed / line / position of my body / how much brake do I apply here etc. Sub-consciously, riding clipless makes you (or me) think you can't just put a foot down, or bail out, if you get into bother (although as has been pointed out, the reality is that you can usually unclip just as quickly as you would putting a foot down with flats.) So, because I am thinking more about the speed / line / body positioning / braking etc, that is making me a better / more confident rider than I think I would be if I were riding flats.

(I'm still quite mincy down the steep / techy stuff mind ... :oops: ... and I'm not sure I've explained that any more clearly than first time around ... :? ho hum ...)

Thewaylander

Flats for me,

I thought the minor gain in power was more due to the 12/6 oclock position where you could put power fwd? where on a flat thats the spot where techincally you produce little to no output?
I just like flats as i come from a street riding background in my youth so it is very natural for me.

Ferrals

I'm running flats at the moment as i'm coming back to mtb after a long break. I distinctly remember as a teenager using spds all the time and then jumping onto a friends bike with flats and failing to bunny hop because of poor technique, so I want to make sure I re-learn the proper technique (also the vans shoes i already had are grippy as araldite and it save me buying pedals and shoes).

back in the day I had those red dx spd, they were great, you could dab and always be certain your feet would clip back in.

rickbst170

Ferrals wrote:

I'm running flats at the moment as i'm coming back to mtb after a long break. I distinctly remember as a teenager using spds all the time and then jumping onto a friends bike with flats and failing to bunny hop because of poor technique, so I want to make sure I re-learn the proper technique

This is what I was thinking. How long have you been off the bike, how long on flats for, how long were you on spds back in the day, and do you think running flats as an intro back to mtb is/was the right decision?

Sounds like most think that spds are the way to go unless it is too uncomfortable such that lack of confidence overrides any efficiency gain which may or may not even exists.

Ta

shindig

njee20 wrote:

They're almost universal at the top level in World Cup DH racing now too, whilst it used to be a virtually 50/50 split. Sam Hill is about the only top rider still using flats.

All those top level DH races are also wearing lots of body armour (including undershorts) have full face helmets, top sports physios and probably gave a higher pain threshold than us mere mortals. I tend to wear standard kit, no armour and normal helmet. So if I do muck it up when clipped in, it may hurt more than just being able to bail out using flats.

Then again, i did break my collar bone in Morzine, and I did have full armour, undershirt armour, full face helmet and using SPD with multi-relase cleats. I went over the bars so fast there was no time to unclip. And I managed to get wrapped up in the only electric fence in the area. Excruciatingly painful with a fractured collar bone being pulsed by electricity. However I continued to use SPD for another 9 years after that before finally converting to flats last year.

Ferrals

I guess I stopped riding about 2000 and got back into it about 6 week or so ago.. so 14 years out! :oops:
Since I've been back, I've been commuting offroad between 6-8k depending on route, messing round the local trails and been up to Afan twice.

Probably on spds for about 5-6 years, I got them early on into mtbing because I was full on into xc and before that had pedals with the traditional plastic toe clip and canvas strap!!

So far I think its the right decision - I haven't really missed not having SPDs at all. Even on rocky bouldery chutes I haven't felt my feet slipping particularly and I'm on a hard tail. I think any foot slip is largely bad technique anyhow so I don't think that's a reason for spds. I haven't had time yet to remind myself how to jump yet so can't comment on that. The only time i've felt like I could do with them is when cycling back up the aforementioned rocky chute where with spds you can pull the pedals back up which I used to find helped on really steep technical climbs where pedal speed is varying and grip is low- mind you, my rear tyre is a piece of sh!t anyway. Long slog climbs are fine.

I don't buy the more confidence thing with either pedal - in my experience if your hitting the floor your hitting the floor, if you've got time to save yourself with flats you've got time to unclip! For me its purely a technique issue, plus of course in the summer you can ride to the pub and not walk into the bar sounding like a tap dancer

rockmonkeysc

Most top level pro DH racers don't use armour.
SPDs won't cause you to crash more if you set the pedal up right.
I have never even had to think about unclipping, it just happens naturally.
For most people who use them for DH racing it's all about the better sprint off the line and being able to pedal in places where you can't using flats. It's also good to know my feet will always be in the right place.

shindig

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Most top level pro DH racers don't use armour.
SPDs won't cause you to crash more if you set the pedal up right.
I have never even had to think about unclipping, it just happens naturally.
For most people who use them for DH racing it's all about the better sprint off the line and being able to pedal in places where you can't using flats. It's also good to know my feet will always be in the right place.

Rockmokey, I agree with you. SPDs will NOT make you crash and that was the one and only time i was not able to unclip during a bail out. It was fatigue and high speed that caused me to crash. Every other time before and after that incident i've managed to unclip during a bail-out.

I still have my Red Platform SPD 636's and may try them again at some point.

j_l

clipped in every time, but with a large platformed type pedal like a Mallet so you get the security of clipless with the weight distribution of flats and if on a tricky section you can clip in for any reason you still have a good contact point on your bike.. 8)

ilovedirt

Always clipped in for all riding- road, XC, downhill, and I don't pull up while pedalling, because it's stupid.
Clips don't cause me to crash more, I can always unclip if necessary, but as rock monkey etc said, it improves your riding by not wanting to stick a leg out every time it gets a bit hairy. If anything it gives me a bit more confidence over rough ground, knowing my feet aren't going to get bounced off the pedals.

The secret rider

Purchased some Five Tens and did a big Gisburn weekend sat / sun

Compared to the shoes I was riding with before they are brilliant

Stick like glue, give me more confidence and also have allowed me to use my legs to push the rear of the bike round in corners etc

If the jump to SPD's give the same again ill convert

Can't wait to ride again

rockmonkeysc

The step up from a stick shoe and good flats to spds is different. There are definite advantages if they work for you but the advantages are different to what you experienced by changing to good stick shoes.

ilovedirt

RockmonkeySC wrote:

The step up from a stick shoe and good flats to spds is different. There are definite advantages if they work for you but the advantages are different to what you experienced by changing to good stick shoes.

For me it's not having massive gashes in my shins every time i slip a pedal... (or just not slipping a pedal)

paul.skibum

For me the "power" advantages are easier to feel with a spd and maybe a little greater but you cant really pull up that much except on a static bike - you can however spin in circles with the spd making the move from say 11 O'clock to 1 and 5 to 7 easier to push through than a flat. It is still possible with flats though with a bit of practice.

I rode in spd's for years and found I would often unclip one foot in tech terrain and stand on the cage instead then clip back in when the issue past - I started on flats when I moved to Canada in a bike park because my boss told me no one wore spds. He was right, they are pretty rare in the bike parks out here and I found them instantly more inspiring for my confidence, I quickly adapted to jumping and modified my technique and think they have made me a better rider. Dont miss the spds at all except if I am on a static bike in the gym!

The Northern Monkey

Tried spds a few times, liked them, but just couldnt get a comfortable stance on the pedals.

I'm quite flat footed on my flats, so moving to the ball of my foot with spds just feels odd and I cant get used to it.

bladeone

I've rode spd's for years Xc stuff, Unclipping is second nature to me, but after starting to do what I call more technical stuff I have started to worry about Unclipping eg when my foot I want to unclip is at top of stroke.

I had a go on my mates flats and realised I had picked up some lazy bad habits.
So after a recent otb crash ( pretty sure it wasn't spd related) decided to order some flats to try and relearn some skills on them.

rockmonkeysc

You only need those skills if your going back to flats permanently.
If you're a bit nervous about tech stuff try loosening your pedals for easy unclipping.

njee20

I dunno, you're limited in how high you can 'bunny hop' by just yanking on the pedals - skills like that are useful, even if you use SPDs.

rockmonkeysc

True but clips make bunny hops easier as well. I find I often over boost jumps when clipped in.