clipins or flats - the science behind it

rickbst170

Hi everyone.

Many moons ago a very good road rider told me that you have approx 30% more useable pedal stroke when clipped in than when on flats. Makes sense, pull and push, not just push. However, I read recently that the pull part of the rotation actually requires something like 40% more energy than doing nothing, so you use 40% more energy for a 30% gain.

Surely, this must be bollox. Otherwise you wouldn't see tour riders clipped in. Surely it also depends on your muscle strength in those muscles used in the pull stroke.

Big question is therefore "is being clipped in more energy efficient in general, and what about when off road (I.e. when the rolling resistance is not consistent)". Any thoughts which can be substantiated?

Trying to decide on flats or spds for my upcoming build. Probably flats so I can jump off when it goes wrong (not ridden in 7 years or so) but loose set-up spds would allow that too, so umm-ing and ahh-ing.

Briggo

For me...

Road = Spd
Off road = flats

Hell if I'm going clipped off road with the terrain I ride on, I'll die.

KevChallis

Briggo wrote:

For me...

Road = Spd
Off road = flats

Hell if I'm going clipped off road with the terrain I ride on, I'll die.

Very much this!!!!!!

When I ride on the road, I ride spd-sl, would I ride clipped off road... Hell no!!!!!

rickbst170

Thanks for quick replies. I used to ride clipped in for xc, but now am going to get into AM, so not sure that I have the balls.

nicklouse

rickbst170 wrote:

Hi everyone.

Blah blah blah

Trying to decide on flats or spds for my upcoming build. Probably flats so I can jump off when it goes wrong (not ridden in 7 years or so) but loose set-up spds would allow that too, so umm-ing and ahh-ing.

It all comes down to what you want. And what the useage of the build is.

Some of mine have SPDs oft hers are flats.

What ever you do DO NOT go for the spd one side flat the other. They are truly bad. If you have absolutely no idea go for cheap flats.

Then you can then decide which cycling shoes and pedals you want later.

gazcarsf1

Spd for me, multi directional cleats, then adjust the tension down till u get use to them!!!

rickbst170

nicklouse wrote:

rickbst170 wrote:

Hi everyone.

Blah blah blah

Lol, this made me laugh. I do waffle.

nicklouse wrote:

What ever you do DO NOT go for the spd one side flat the other. They are truly bad. If you have absolutely no idea go for cheap flats.

Good advice. Was wondering about those. Will steer clear.

I guess flats until I can control a bike again (shift weight/twist bars to get the bike where I want) and then move to spds if I feel I need to. Too easy to cheat when clipped in and just jump over logs instead of actually learning control techniques.

declan1

I felt that my feet kept slipping on flats and I got knee pain from the constantly changing position. Going downhill I just had no confidence in them. SPDs for me - as said above it's definitely all down to what you like best.

rockmonkeysc

I used to hate spds off road but after being persuaded to try them for downhill I'm absolutely convinced by them. I think they're a bit better for the sprint off the start line but the biggest gain is the ability to pedal through rough ground where my feet would get bounced off flats. They're also great for keeping my feet in the right place.
I now use them for xc as well and only use flats in really horrible conditions.
I have never had any problems with not being able yo unclip when I need to or with them not unclipping in a crash.

russyh

For me spd on road, they are a million times better than any other option. But for mtb, it has to be flats. Mainly because I am so shit that the chances of me needing to be away from the bike are high!

Tigger con carne

It's an interesting thought. You have to pull your leg up whatever pedals you use or else you're having to push the weight of your "other" leg so, it's just a development of that, surely? Pulling up uses a different set of muscles as well, relying on the hamstrings (and calves?) rather than the gluts/quads so I'd say it makes the pedal stroke more biomechanically efficient to use SPDs.

Personally I was happily using SPDs on my MTB rides before I broke my collar bone (on a commute ride, not a leisure ride), and when I imminently get back to fun riding I'll be using flats to start with because of what everyone above has said and the fact that I am still prone to the occasional brain freeze-induced static SPD topple which could re-do my shoulder

supersonic

It is less efficient to pull up (hard), many studies show this.

kajjal

I use MTB flats on my road and XC MTB. Just feels more comfortable to me.

cooldad

I use flats off road, and toe clips on my road bike. Because I like to wait for technology to be proven.

Prowlus

My Racer has spds (actually mtb derived shimano m540s) and my mtb has fwe flat alloy pedals .
Riding on cleats gives you a higher smooth road speed but can be difficult when you have to make an emergency brake cause you gotta remember to cleat out aswell as brake in order to dismount which often lead me to crash onto the floor with my bike tangled around my legs .
That is why I decided not on my mtb esp when descending an incline

SlipSpace

SPDs for me. First couple of rides I had instances of stopping and not being able to get my feet off and laying on my side on the trail still clipped in It's worth the perseverance though imo and clipping / unclipping becomes second nature, you don't even think about it. It's like...err...well..riding a bike!

.blitz

rickbst170 wrote:

Big question is therefore "is being clipped in more energy efficient in general

The purpose of the spd system is to strengthen the weakest part of the legs (the feet). Think of the shoe as a really big flat pedal platform - a flat pedal as big as your feet - and the spd pedal as a means of attaching this platform to the cranks. That's all it is.

Marketing and hype has made us think of spd pedals as pedals in their own right but they're just brackets the other half of the system is the shoes which are often overlooked.

njee20

Clipless for me all round.

craker

I'm a spud wearer on my XC bike. I do my fair share of falling off, my feet have always magically unclipped themselves when it comes to picking myself up from the mud / dust. Could be subconcious reaction on my part, I think it's more likely that as I run the clips nice and loose they just unclip when wrenched.

Happened on my road bike as well though (SPD-SL). One minute I'm riding along, next I'm sitting on the tarmac watching my front wheel roll slowly down the slope of the severn bridge towards England. The rest of my bike is a tangle behind me... I certainly didn't unclip.

pilch

Clipless for everything, if you are concerned about not releasing then use multi release cleats... to be honest unclipping becomes a reflex reaction after a while anyway.

lawman

RockmonkeySC wrote:

I used to hate spds off road but after being persuaded to try them for downhill I'm absolutely convinced by them. I think they're a bit better for the sprint off the start line but the biggest gain is the ability to pedal through rough ground where my feet would get bounced off flats. They're also great for keeping my feet in the right place.
I now use them for xc as well and only use flats in really horrible conditions.
I have never had any problems with not being able yo unclip when I need to or with them not unclipping in a crash.

This. Rode flats for 7/8 years then switched to spds start of last year and haven't looked back since. Find I can't ride on flats any more and feel much more comfortable clipped in, even for DH trails. I bought some ShimanoXT trail pedals and Mp66 shoes and wound the tension right out, super easy to unclip from in those "ohhhh Shiiiiiiiiiiiiit" moments!

warpcow

I use both. There are some things that I'm more comfortable doing with flats, but that's all in my head really. Unclipping has become 2nd-nature, not something I have to consciously think about.

bigmitch41

spd's for me, I started out on flats but as the terrain roughened up I found my feet would slip off. With clips I found I have much more power to pedal through the gloop and uphill too. I’ve got them wound right out so easy to get out of when needed, but still manage to have the odd spill while still attached landing upside down in a hedge etc, but that gives me chance to test out my new knee pads i just got..

The secret rider

I ride regualr with about 6-8 lads and they are all on big £ bikes and have lots of experiance they are all on SPD's

Me being new to it all i am feeling the peer pressure to move to SPD i have had a few small off's front end was outs etc that on flats are no bother however i am now in a dilema.

Do i keep flats and change when i feel ready but i could develop bad habbits like dabbing foot etc

or do i just man up and go spd now.

Riding is mostly XC and trail centres. Cannock, Gisburn, Thetford etc

warpcow

The thing with people's feet slipping off flats I think is often down to outlay I believe. People won't bat an eyelid at buying specific SPD pedals and shoes, but think flats should work with any old trainer. You see it in the "Are 5.10s really worth it?"-type threads: you never see anyone asking if it's worth shelling out the equivalent amount for SPD shoes for their SPD pedals. Good shoes make all the difference.

/generalising semi-rant over.

rockmonkeysc

Before changing to spd for downhill I had 5.10 freeriders and Shimano AM41 with Straitline pedals and compared to spd they are still not secure enough. The biggest difference is keeping foot position while pedalling over very rough ground.

rickbst170

Spds for downhill? Think that's me sold then. I used to ride spds but though they're more for xc. If people are using them for dh I'm happy to use them for AM/FR.

The secret rider

Funny you mention this yesterday i had had enough and ordered some Five Ten Freeride shoes.

This will be the last step in my eyes before ging for a SPD

I hear good things so lets see if these are enough for me to stay with flats.

They will though have no effect of efficancy of pedal stroke which of course will come with SPD''s How much diffrence this makes however i have no idea at all.

rickbst170

My big problem with flats is foot placement. Missing the pedal, whacking shins, inconsistent stroke all leads me to think spds are the way to go. My reservation is that I always rode xc and road, and now I'm going to ride more gnarly stuff. If others ride gnarly stuff with spds I guess I'll be ok. But if no-one runs spds for gnar then its silly to assume I'm different. Good to hear downhillers are using spds, if they are comfortable I'm sure the little hills I find will be manageable.

njee20

They're almost universal at the top level in World Cup DH racing now too, whilst it used to be a virtually 50/50 split. Sam Hill is about the only top rider still using flats.

Tigger con carne

supersonic wrote:

It is less efficient to pull up (hard), many studies show this.

Yes, apparently so, though I found it counter-intuitive. I did a bit of digging around in online literature and this paper suggests that while "pulling" (fnarr) is mechanically more effective, it's a less physiologically efficient way to pedal. I knew this would be an interesting topic (for me, at least)