Wheel Truing Stand Advice
Comments
-
Yep, just a simple Clark CLM300, but it's enough for what I need to turn up spacers and do rough work. I have friends who can do precision work if needs be, plus in the shed I have I'd need to lay a proper concrete base if I went up from a hobby lathe.
Not that far from you, just down the road at Chafford Hundred, but work at Warley/Dunton (a Ford man). I've pretty much got all the metal and parts I can see (bar the gauge), so it shouldn't be too much trouble. Having multiple hobbies tends to that
If you like lathes and engineering you'll like my other project, seven years in the making so far lol
0 -
By all means build your own stand then... the Park is OK, but I think you can do a lot better if you can mill metal partsleft the forum March 20230
-
-
ugo.santalucia wrote:By all means build your own stand then... the Park is OK, but I think you can do a lot better if you can mill metal parts
I never said I would?? I said I could build the stand for the spoke tension, which I have the bits for bar the gauge. That is not that hard to do. Conversly, I'd probably have to put more thinking/building time into doing a truing stand (and I don't have a mill just a lathe), and with trying to get cycling in around family life and also trying to get garage time for my car build that is taking longer than the gestation period of an elephant, I'd prefer just to buy a stand. It's just I've got my head in a tizz over the tension meter and once that happens (as Charlie Potatoes can confirm) I can't help but get slightly OCD over certain things :?0 -
brettjmcc wrote:Yep, just a simple Clark CLM300, but it's enough for what I need to turn up spacers and do rough work. I have friends who can do precision work if needs be, plus in the shed I have I'd need to lay a proper concrete base if I went up from a hobby lathe.
Not that far from you, just down the road at Chafford Hundred, but work at Warley/Dunton (a Ford man). I've pretty much got all the metal and parts I can see (bar the gauge), so it shouldn't be too much trouble. Having multiple hobbies tends to that If you like lathes and engineering you'll like my other project, seven years in the making so far lol
Like the car! I worked at Warley but not for Fords directly. I was a consultant employed by Logica and worked at Fords on various IT projects over several years.
I've got a Myford ML7 lathe and a South Bend 9A which is similar to the Myford in size and capacity.
Buying the wheel truing stand makes sense. If you get the Planet X one let me know what you think of it, I might get one too. Making the calibration device should be a doddle. Drop me a PM if you need any rough dimensions but it is fairly simple to work out once you have the digital scale. I got the eyebolt and the u-bolt from Screwfix.0 -
hypster wrote:brettjmcc wrote:Yep, just a simple Clark CLM300, but it's enough for what I need to turn up spacers and do rough work. I have friends who can do precision work if needs be, plus in the shed I have I'd need to lay a proper concrete base if I went up from a hobby lathe.
Not that far from you, just down the road at Chafford Hundred, but work at Warley/Dunton (a Ford man). I've pretty much got all the metal and parts I can see (bar the gauge), so it shouldn't be too much trouble. Having multiple hobbies tends to that If you like lathes and engineering you'll like my other project, seven years in the making so far lol
Like the car! I worked at Warley but not for Fords directly. I was a consultant employed by Logica and worked at Fords on various IT projects over several years.
I've got a Myford ML7 lathe and a South Bend 9A which is similar to the Myford in size and capacity.
Buying the wheel truing stand makes sense. If you get the Planet X one let me know what you think of it, I might get one too. Making the calibration device should be a doddle. Drop me a PM if you need any rough dimensions but it is fairly simple to work out once you have the digital scale. I got the eyebolt and the u-bolt from Screwfix.
You should contact Strada and Wheelsmith and the likes and offer them the product... at twice the price of course... I think most builders would be interested... I am... just need to find out if I need it, basically if my DT swiss one actually goes out of calibration or not, of which I have no evidenceleft the forum March 20230 -
You should contact Strada and Wheelsmith and the likes and offer them the product... at twice the price of course... I think most builders would be interested... I am... just need to find out if I need it, basically if my DT swiss one actually goes out of calibration or not, of which I have no evidence
Thanks for the suggestion Ugo. I'm currently tweaking the design a bit at the moment to make it easier/quicker to insert a new spoke which I think would be more important for pro wheel builders such as yourself. If you talk to The Cycle Clinic get some feedback from him. I think he checked his DT Swiss tensiometer against it and found it okay.0 -
brettjmcc wrote:It's just I've got my head in a tizz over the tension meter and once that happens (as Charlie Potatoes can confirm) I can't help but get slightly OCD over certain things :?
Indeed I can
"You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Am I missing something? How do you relate a reading on your machine with a reading on the Park Gauge? Sorry if I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp.0
-
The Park gauge infers spoke tension by measuring how much it deflects when a fixed bending load is placed across it. Hypster's gauge allows you to set a spoke to a known tension and cross-check the Park gauge reading with that value.
What's the R+R of the Park gauge, out of interest?- - - - - - - - - -
On Strava.{/url}0 -
DesWeller wrote:The Park gauge infers spoke tension by measuring how much it deflects when a fixed bending load is placed across it. Hypster's gauge allows you to set a spoke to a known tension and cross-check the Park gauge reading with that value.
What's the R+R of the Park gauge, out of interest?
Still not getting it. :oops:
So hyptser's gauge and spoke is tightened to a set to some number. How does that number relate to whatever number shows up on the Park tool? Will it be the same number? Or is there a conversion of sorts?0 -
There are a number of ways you can use the calibration device. First of all you insert a spoke of the gauge you are interested in checking the TM-1 against (obviously).
1. This is the way I use it. If I am building a wheel to a known maximum DS tension, let's say 125kg, then I tension the spoke in the calibration device to 125kg - that's what the electronic scale is there for. You then put the TM-1 on to the spoke and see what the TM-1 reading is corresponding to that tension (say 23). Then all you have to do when building the wheel is to take the DS spokes up to 23 using the TM-1.
2. You could also check the spoke at various tensions in a range and adjust the TM-1 so that it's reading is more accurate. Then, if we were using say Sapim Race spokes with a gauge of 1.8mm, to build our rim to 125kg DS tension we would look at the TM-1 conversion chart and decide that a TM-1 reading of around 22.5 will give us that.
3. You could also just produce your own TM-1 conversion chart for each spoke you are interested in and a range of tensions. So starting at say 50kg you would then see what the TM-1 was reading and note that down. Then in increments of 10kg you would note what the TM-1 was reading up to say 150kg. Alternatively you could create the same conversion chart as the Park TM-1 one by altering the calibration device tension by maybe 1 or 2kg at a time and noting what the TM-1 was reading at its whole number points. That would obviously be a bit more time consuming.
I hope my extensive explanation has not been overkill for you dennisn but I thought if you couldn't understand one method the penny might drop for one of the others.0 -
hypster wrote:There are a number of ways you can use the calibration device. First of all you insert a spoke of the gauge you are interested in checking the TM-1 against (obviously).
1. This is the way I use it. If I am building a wheel to a known maximum DS tension, let's say 125kg, then I tension the spoke in the calibration device to 125kg - that's what the electronic scale is there for. You then put the TM-1 on to the spoke and see what the TM-1 reading is corresponding to that tension (say 23). Then all you have to do when building the wheel is to take the DS spokes up to 23 using the TM-1.
2. You could also check the spoke at various tensions in a range and adjust the TM-1 so that it's reading is more accurate. Then, if we were using say Sapim Race spokes with a gauge of 1.8mm, to build our rim to 125kg DS tension we would look at the TM-1 conversion chart and decide that a TM-1 reading of around 22.5 will give us that.
3. You could also just produce your own TM-1 conversion chart for each spoke you are interested in and a range of tensions. So starting at say 50kg you would then see what the TM-1 was reading and note that down. Then in increments of 10kg you would note what the TM-1 was reading up to say 150kg. Alternatively you could create the same conversion chart as the Park TM-1 one by altering the calibration device tension by maybe 1 or 2kg at a time and noting what the TM-1 was reading at its whole number points. That would obviously be a bit more time consuming.
I hope my extensive explanation has not been overkill for you dennisn but I thought if you couldn't understand one method the penny might drop for one of the others.
Thanx. For some reason I kept thinking that you were checking the accuracy of the Park tool against your tool, when you were simply looking for a number on the Park tool to use when you trued the wheel to whatever tension you had decided upon. The Park tool accuracy was never in question other than it reading the same number(give or take) while doing the build? Or am I wrong again? :oops:0 -
dennisn wrote:Thanx. For some reason I kept thinking that you were checking the accuracy of the Park tool against your tool, when you were simply looking for a number on the Park tool to use when you trued the wheel to whatever tension you had decided upon. The Park tool accuracy was never in question other than it reading the same number(give or take) while doing the build? Or am I wrong again? :oops:
I'm not really sure what you are asking but here's a direct example. Using an ACI Alpina 1.7mm spoke in the calibration device, if I tension it to 125kg and then put my Park TM-1 on it it reads 23.5. According to the Park conversion chart this should be a tension of around 164kg so the TM-1 is over reading by about 39kg at that tension. If I didn't have the calibration device then any wheel I tried to build at 125kg using just the TM-1 and the Park conversion chart would be under tensioned by approx 30kg (the error is not linear through the range).
Looking at it another way the Park conversion chart gives me a TM-1 deflection reading of just over 21 for my 125kg tension but obviously that would be too low because of the over reading error.
Imagine you had a set of scales that said you weighed 200 lbs but you knew that you weighed less than that. If you loaded up the scales with a known weight of 190 lbs and your scales read 200 lbs then you would know your scales are over reading by 10 lbs.0 -
hypster wrote:dennisn wrote:Thanx. For some reason I kept thinking that you were checking the accuracy of the Park tool against your tool, when you were simply looking for a number on the Park tool to use when you trued the wheel to whatever tension you had decided upon. The Park tool accuracy was never in question other than it reading the same number(give or take) while doing the build? Or am I wrong again? :oops:
I'm not really sure what you are asking but here's a direct example. Using an ACI Alpina 1.7mm spoke in the calibration device, if I tension it to 125kg and then put my Park TM-1 on it it reads 23.5. According to the Park conversion chart this should be a tension of around 164kg so the TM-1 is over reading by about 39kg at that tension. If I didn't have the calibration device then any wheel I tried to build at 125kg using just the TM-1 and the Park conversion chart would be under tensioned by approx 30kg (the error is not linear through the range).
Looking at it another way the Park conversion chart gives me a TM-1 deflection reading of just over 21 for my 125kg tension but obviously that would be too low because of the over reading error.
Imagine you had a set of scales that said you weighed 200 lbs but you knew that you weighed less than that. If you loaded up the scales with a known weight of 190 lbs and your scales read 200 lbs then you would know your scales are over reading by 10 lbs.
I'm following you, if a little slowly. You tension a spoke, on your machine, to what you want on the wheel. Then you put the Park meter on that spoke and it gives you a number on it's dial indicator. Two things could happen then. One, you could use the conversion table to then adjust the Park tool to give you a comparable reading and it's set. Two, you could ignore the conversion and simply use the number the Park tool gave you, when you tested the spoke, and use it as your reference while building the wheel. I'm voting for No.1 in the interest of doing it right. How does that sound? :oops: :?0 -
dennisn wrote:I'm following you, if a little slowly. You tension a spoke, on your machine, to what you want on the wheel. Then you put the Park meter on that spoke and it gives you a number on it's dial indicator. Two things could happen then. One, you could use the conversion table to then adjust the Park tool to give you a comparable reading and it's set. Two, you could ignore the conversion and simply use the number the Park tool gave you, when you tested the spoke, and use it as your reference while building the wheel. I'm voting for No.1 in the interest of doing it right. How does that sound? :oops: :?
Both correct as I described in my earlier post with the 3 methods. I use your option 2 though because it means that I don't have to continually test and adjust the TM-1 to make sure it is accurate. I also then don't have to use the Park conversion chart either because I have the accurate TM-1 deflection reading directly taken from my calibration device.0 -
hypster wrote:dennisn wrote:I'm following you, if a little slowly. You tension a spoke, on your machine, to what you want on the wheel. Then you put the Park meter on that spoke and it gives you a number on it's dial indicator. Two things could happen then. One, you could use the conversion table to then adjust the Park tool to give you a comparable reading and it's set. Two, you could ignore the conversion and simply use the number the Park tool gave you, when you tested the spoke, and use it as your reference while building the wheel. I'm voting for No.1 in the interest of doing it right. How does that sound? :oops: :?
Both correct as I described in my earlier post with the 3 methods. I use your option 2 though because it means that I don't have to continually test and adjust the TM-1 to make sure it is accurate. I also then don't have to use the Park conversion chart either because I have the accurate TM-1 deflection reading directly taken from my calibration device.
Thanx for being patient. :oops:0 -
dennisn - if I may it seems your confusion lay in the difference between an instruments reliability and validity -
The usefulness of the TM-1 and the corresponding argument in this thread assumes two things:
1) The TM-1 is reliable; i.e. if it measures, for example, 23 on a spoke which is at a given tension it will always read 23 on all similar spokes at the same tension, and
2) All similar spokes will bend by the same amount at any given tension - ergo - the TM-1 (if it is reliable) will always give the same reading on similar spokes at any given tension.
The thing that is not assumed is how valid (accurate in absolute terms) the TM-1 reading is and what values it's reading is on a different scale. Checking TM-1 against hypsters genius calibration device with the methods described checks if the TM-1 is valid (you could also use it to check the TM-1 and spoke reliability if you were inclined but it seems those assumptions are safe). hypsters device is assumed to be the Gold Standard - so if it reads a given value that's assumed to be correct. By finding out what the TM-1 reads at that value you can check how valid (i.e. accurate in magnitude) the TM-1 reading is and also convert the scale of the TM-1 reading to the same scale as the hipster genius tool. As rim limits are defined in the unit hypsters device measures that's a pretty useful thing to be able to do!0 -
One good thing about the Park TS 2.2 and those with the same design is that they offer a bit more flexibility... for instance I have just built these extensions for 48-52 inch wheels, which would not fit in other stands.
left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:One good thing about the Park TS 2.2 and those with the same design is that they offer a bit more flexibility... for instance I have just built these extensions for 48-52 inch wheels, which would not fit in other stands.
Nice. How much? And can you post me a set? :?0 -
left the forum March 20230
