Wheel Truing Stand Advice

brettjmcc

Having built my first set of wheels this week at a friend's house, which I have to say I really enjoyed. I think I'd like to invest in some workshop kit for future builds/practice!

Having done some google/eBay searching, I am wondering what people think of the options that Planet X have here:
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TOJWPWTS/j ... shop-stand and
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TOJWWTS/jo ... p-standard

I realise that having a quick search on the forum that the Park Tool 2.2 get s a lot of recommendations, but I am not sure whether I want to spend that amount of money just yet. Any thoughts or other inputs? Thanks

ugo.santalucia

If you don't plan to start building for others, you won't have enough wheels to build to justify 200+ quid of the Park one... that said, if you don't have an Harry Rowland in your aera, you might end up doing some work for friends and local people, so it might be a good investment.Most people with a Park 2.2 do work for others too... Remember tools retain their value and if you keep it for a couple of years, you can then sell it for 70 % of the original price or more.
Of course you can go crazy and buy the P&K Lie stand... which I have been looking at for 12 months or so and thought... should I?

giant_man

you don't need to spend that much on a decent stand, you certainly don't need the dials. overkill.

desweller

Good way to mop up bits of old plywood in the shed in my experience.

ugo.santalucia

Yes, you can get a cheap one or you can make your own, but in the grand scheme of things, a PT 2.2 costs just over 200 quid... for something that lasts forever... what do you buy for 200 quid in cycling gear today? A fancy set of bars that will snap within 24 months... a pair of fancy shoes... not a lot really.
It's a small investment in a new hobby... it will pay dividends

ugo.santalucia

See what I mean by second hand value?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Professional- ... 338bb707b7

drlodge

brettjmcc wrote:

Having built my first set of wheels this week at a friend's house, which I have to say I really enjoyed. I think I'd like to invest in some workshop kit for future builds/practice!

Having done some google/eBay searching, I am wondering what people think of the options that Planet X have here:
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TOJWPWTS/j ... shop-stand and
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TOJWWTS/jo ... p-standard

I realise that having a quick search on the forum that the Park Tool 2.2 get s a lot of recommendations, but I am not sure whether I want to spend that amount of money just yet. Any thoughts or other inputs? Thanks

For me personally, having a good set of tools for the job makes the experience more enjoyable, and often produces better results. As Paolo says - £200 is not a lot in the big scheme of things. If I were building wheels I'd probably get something like that stand.

onbike 1939

The one made for Alf Webb seems sturdy and is cheaper.

http://www.webbline.co.uk/popup.asp?img=W20

rayjay

3d printer

giant_man

onbike 1939 wrote:

The one made for Alf Webb seems sturdy and is cheaper.

http://www.webbline.co.uk/popup.asp?img=W20

They manufacture these in-house, hence the good price, I have one and it is absolutely fine and well built.

rayjay

I use a vice and a hammer ,,,it works pretty well

hypster

I built my own stand to my own design out of angle iron and it cost me about a fiver. I've built around 20 wheels using it now for myself, friends and family and all have proved to be reliable (so far! ). If I could justify the cost I think the Park stand is the one to go for but the cheaper Planet X one looks like a decent copy if you don't want to shell out £200 to build a few wheels. I guess maybe it depends how many you think you might end up building. Once you get the knack it certainly is addictive.

One thing you should budget for buying is a tensiometer. The Park TM-1 is reasonably priced at around £50 and will certainly help you get even tensions in the spokes but generally I find that they are a bit optimistic in terms of ultimate tension readings so your wheel may end up with lower spoke tensions than you expected. I built a tensiometer calibration device so that I could calibrate my TM-1 and now I can get my spoke tensions spot-on. Mine reads about 12% high but I don't bother adjusting the TM-1, I just put a spoke I am building with in the calibration device and tension it at the maximum tension I require in the DS spokes and see what the TM-1 reads at that point. I don't need the TM-1 conversion table then either.

PhunkyPhil

I love these threads. Somebody know that a more expensive product has better features which justify the extra cost but is looking at the cheaper item which will "make do" in the short term.

I think you should get what ever your budget allows, if you can't afford or justify £200 don't spend it.

You may also want to think that if you may want the one with better features later then it may actually save you money to simply buy it now as you may end up buying cheap and buying twice which I try to avoid.

dennisn

rayjay wrote:

I use a vice and a hammer ,,,it works pretty well

How much do you charge for a set.

drlodge

dennisn wrote:

rayjay wrote:

I use a vice and a hammer ,,,it works pretty well

How much do you charge for a set.

I'm just wondering what the wheel was like BEFORE it was trued.

shaw8670

The SJS cycles M wave at about £50. It is almost the same as the minoura. It has a scale for centering , so you won't need a dishing tool. I had one of these on loan, then bought my own Webbline one, which is very robust but isn't as precise to work with and takes more space, but I'd have to admit it makes no false claims!

dennisn

shaw8670 wrote:

The SJS cycles M wave at about £50. It is almost the same as the minoura. It has a scale for centering , so you won't need a dishing tool.

Not sure I buy the idea of NO dishing tool needed. A dishing tool is really the only GOOD way of checking a centered rim. Sure, you can do without it, just like you can use a set of old forks as a stand and a handheld screwdriver to check if the rim is running true. Don't "rig up" something to build wheels. You won't be satisfied with the result.

balthazar

dennisn wrote:

Don't "rig up" something to build wheels. You won't be satisfied with the result.

I don't know. I built a few wheels with exactly that setup- an old fork and a screwdriver (and blu-tac), before I used a stand, and those wheels are as good as any others I've built. A quality stand is a very good idea, but it doesn't directly make your wheels better, it just makes the process easier and more enjoyable.

Admittedly, as wheel building is an iterative process that demands time, you're more likely to build the best wheels you can if you're enjoying it.

mallorcajeff

Ive never had a £200 set of bars snap in two years? Stupid statement

brettjmcc

Thanks for the replies, even the amusing ones.

I think I'll probably go with the PX one that looks like the Park one, that way the price difference will also allow me to get a tension gauge and dishing tool, plus a few bits here and there.

hypster - one question, when you first got the Park TM1 did you build yourself any form of calibration, as I here it goes out after a while.

ugo.santalucia

brettjmcc wrote:

hypster - one question, when you first got the Park TM1 did you build yourself any form of calibration, as I here it goes out after a while.

That's a bit of a legend... keep it indoor, keep it at a reasonable temperature and away from moisture and the spring won't age significantly.
When I bought the DT one, I calibrated the Park against it and never touched it since.

hypster

brettjmcc wrote:

Thanks for the replies, even the amusing ones.

I think I'll probably go with the PX one that looks like the Park one, that way the price difference will also allow me to get a tension gauge and dishing tool, plus a few bits here and there.

hypster - one question, when you first got the Park TM1 did you build yourself any form of calibration, as I here it goes out after a while.

Yes, if you re-read the last part of my previous post you will see I did build a calibration device to check my Park TM-1 tensiometer. Mine was about 12% out from new as I understand most are judging by some of the posts I have seen on various forums. I originally checked mine against The Cycle Clinic's professional DT Swiss tensiometer which confirmed it was reading high so designed and built a tensiometer calibration device. I also built one for The Cycle Clinic as well, here is a picture.



If anyone is interested I can build them one for £100 posted (UK only).

ugo.santalucia

hypster wrote:

brettjmcc wrote:

Thanks for the replies, even the amusing ones.

I think I'll probably go with the PX one that looks like the Park one, that way the price difference will also allow me to get a tension gauge and dishing tool, plus a few bits here and there.

hypster - one question, when you first got the Park TM1 did you build yourself any form of calibration, as I here it goes out after a while.

Yes, if you re-read the last part of my previous post you will see I did build a calibration device to check my Park TM-1 tensiometer. Mine was about 12% out from new as I understand most are judging by some of the posts I have seen on various forums. I originally checked mine against The Cycle Clinic's professional DT Swiss tensiometer which confirmed it was reading high so designed and built a tensiometer calibration device. I also built one for The Cycle Clinic as well, here is a picture.



If anyone is interested I can build them one for £100 posted (UK only).

Nice piece of kit... I'd assume you can fit any spoke you want and vary the tension with the screw for a complete calibration?
And that's basically a dynamometer?

dennisn

hypster wrote:

brettjmcc wrote:

Thanks for the replies, even the amusing ones.

I think I'll probably go with the PX one that looks like the Park one, that way the price difference will also allow me to get a tension gauge and dishing tool, plus a few bits here and there.

hypster - one question, when you first got the Park TM1 did you build yourself any form of calibration, as I here it goes out after a while.

Yes, if you re-read the last part of my previous post you will see I did build a calibration device to check my Park TM-1 tensiometer. Mine was about 12% out from new as I understand most are judging by some of the posts I have seen on various forums. I originally checked mine against The Cycle Clinic's professional DT Swiss tensiometer which confirmed it was reading high so designed and built a tensiometer calibration device. I also built one for The Cycle Clinic as well, here is a picture.



If anyone is interested I can build them one for £100 posted (UK only).

Do you find that all or most spokes, in a given group of like ones, tend to have the same reading or do you simply use it on one spoke, in a set, to check the tension meter? Just wondering if they are sort of quality controlled by the manufacturer in that respect? :?

brettjmcc

Sorry I missed that in amongst all the jokey posts, my eyes went wobbly when I saw the perfect rim produced with the hammer.

I was thinking of something similar, but using a set of 0-100kg spring luggage scales; or tightening up some spokes on a jig and then recoding against the intial values and then leaving on the side of the shed. Can I ask what type of gauge that is and it's range? Thanks

ugo.santalucia

brettjmcc wrote:

Sorry I missed that in amongst all the jokey posts, my eyes went wobbly when I saw the perfect rim produced with the hammer.

I was thinking of something similar, but using a set of 0-100kg spring luggage scales; or tightening up some spokes on a jig and then recoding against the intial values and then leaving on the side of the shed. Can I ask what type of gauge that is and it's range? Thanks

You need at least 150 Kg

hypster

I'll try and answer all the calibration device queries in one go. The main measuring device is a digital hanging scale which reads to 300kg and is available on eBay for around £35. A 100kg spring scale would not be accurate enough I think and would not go up to the 125kg or so that you would need to build some rims at. If you wanted to use it to check the accuracy of the Park TM-1 to 100kg then I guess it would be a cheap option. Another one would be to hang a spoke from a secure point and load it up with a known set of weights and then put the tensiometer on it and see what it reads.

The frame is a heavy 25mm box section steel which needs to be very stiff to resist the force when you crank a spoke up to 125kg. The end pieces are turned up on my lathe and fabricated by me in my workshop. The frame as I have built it should accommodate quite a range of spokes as well. I have also checked the accuracy of the calibration device using known weights and another accurate scale and all agree.

I normally insert a spoke I am building with and tighten the end eyebolt to produce the maximum tension in the spoke for the rim I am building for. I then put the Park TM-1 tensiometer on the spoke and see what it is reading as use that as my upper limit for the drive side tension in the rear wheel.

Non drive side tension will obviously be what it is depending on the dish and the relative tensions on each side are only by comparison with adjacent spokes so the actual readings are unimportant. I do the same for the front wheel spokes but obviously using a lower force of around 100kg say.

I haven't bothered to compare the tensions in batches of spokes, I just trust the manufacturers to do a good job! I also haven't bothered to try and adjust the TM-1 to get the accuracy spot on because it's not a direct reading device anyway. Using the calibration device obviates the need for the Park conversion table as well.

Any more questions don't hesitate to ask.

ugo.santalucia

hypster wrote:

I'll try and answer all the calibration device queries in one go. The main measuring device is a digital hanging scale which reads to 300kg and is available on eBay for around £35. A 100kg spring scale would not be accurate enough I think and would not go up to the 125kg or so that you would need to build some rims at. If you wanted to use it to check the accuracy of the Park TM-1 to 100kg then I guess it would be a cheap option. Another one would be to hang a spoke from a secure point and load it up with a known set of weights and then put the tensiometer on it and see what it reads.

The frame is a heavy 25mm box section steel which needs to be very stiff to resist the force when you crank a spoke up to 125kg. The end pieces are turned up on my lathe and fabricated by me in my workshop. The frame as I have built it should accommodate quite a range of spokes as well. I have also checked the accuracy of the calibration device using known weights and another accurate scale and all agree.

I normally insert a spoke I am building with and tighten the end eyebolt to produce the maximum tension in the spoke for the rim I am building for. I then put the Park TM-1 tensiometer on the spoke and see what it is reading as use that as my upper limit for the drive side tension in the rear wheel.

Non drive side tension will obviously be what it is depending on the dish and the relative tensions on each side are only by comparison with adjacent spokes so the actual readings are unimportant. I do the same for the front wheel spokes but obviously using a lower force of around 100kg say.

I haven't bothered to compare the tensions in batches of spokes, I just trust the manufacturers to do a good job! I also haven't bothered to try and adjust the TM-1 to get the accuracy spot on because it's not a direct reading device anyway. Using the calibration device obviates the need for the Park conversion table as well.

Any more questions don't hesitate to ask.

You did a good job and you ask a fair price for it. Any idea of the accuracy of the digital scale? Also, does it need to be vertical to work correctly?

brettjmcc

Thanks hypster, much appreciated. Looks like I may have to take a break from working on my car over the next few weeks and turn up a few parts instead

Where are you in Essex?

hypster

You did a good job and you ask a fair price for it. Any idea of the accuracy of the digital scale? Also, does it need to be vertical to work correctly?

Cheers Ugo,

Looking at my one the digital scale reads to 0.1kg i.e. 100g. When I built it I checked the scale against 100kg of weight lifting weights that I checked on another accurate scale and another hanging scale and all three electronic scales agreed exactly.

I usually use it horizontally clamped in my bench vice but I have also had it vertically as well. I make sure there is no load in the spoke and also make sure the scale is zeroed as well before adding tension to the spoke so I'm pretty confident the reading is within the scale graduation of 100g.

hypster

brettjmcc wrote:

Thanks hypster, much appreciated. Looks like I may have to take a break from working on my car over the next few weeks and turn up a few parts instead

Where are you in Essex?

Another lathe man!

I'm in a village called Hook End which is about 6 miles North of Brentwood. Where abouts are you?