Should I do another long ride before sportive?

ic.
ic. Posts: 769
Hi all

I have my first 100 scheduled in for 23rd March (The Cheshire Cat).

Training has gone fairly well, I've lost weight and am feeling pretty good about it. I went out and did a solo 72 miles yesterday and came home pretty fckd tbh.

I've done plenty of 50-60 mile rides recently and found them fairly easy.

Any advice on whether I should try another 70+ ride before the event? My only opportunity would be Monday 17th March, is this too close to the event to recover properly?
2020 Reilly Spectre - raw titanium
2020 Merida Reacto Disc Ltd - black on black
2015 CAAD8 105 - very green - stripped to turbo bike
2018 Planet X Exocet 2 - grey

The departed:

2017 Cervelo R3 DI2 - sold
Boardman CX Team - sold
Cannondale Synapse - broken
Cube Streamer - stolen
Boardman Road Comp - stolen

Comments

  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    That's nearly a week before the event, so I don't see any reason why not?
  • herzog
    herzog Posts: 197
    IC. wrote:
    ...My only opportunity would be Monday 17th March, is this too close to the event to recover properly?

    Couldn't see this being a problem as you'll have plenty time to recover - providing you don't come off and knack yourself!
  • davep1
    davep1 Posts: 836
    I wouldn't but we are all different. I would think the Cheshire Cat is quite tough and it sounds like it is about 30% more than you have done. For me the potential to empty the tank and not have enough time to get it back outweighs the potential extra gain of another ride. I wouldn't do anything after Tuesday
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    You don't say how old you are or typically how long you take to recover. At 49 I certainly take a bit longer (at most things :wink: ) than I did when I was 19. It also depends a bit on when you had last done a reasonable ride. If there was going to be a long gap if you didn't do this ride then I think it will help - much over a week off the bike (certainly by two weeks) my fitness is beginning to decline a bit. A week of rest is pretty much perfect though. On balance, I'd say do it.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • JayKosta
    JayKosta Posts: 635
    Since you did a hard ride on March 10, just see how long it take to recover from that.
    If you do go for a long ride on March 17, I'd suggest taking a route that could provide a short way back - in case you get too fatigued. You don't want to find yourself hours from home and having difficulty getting back!

    In truth, doing a long ride on the 17th probably won't give you any extra fitness in any case. Just make certain to be rested & recovered for the 23th.

    Jay Kosta
    Endwell NY USA
  • ic.
    ic. Posts: 769
    Thanks for all the replies

    I'm 33 and typically recover fairly well. I had yesterday off the bike completely and was planning a short 20 miler tonight. I feel ok today, legs were tired yesterday but seem better today. I'm sure a spin tonight will help clear them out

    I like the idea of going for a long ride but having a bail out point. I think that is now my plan

    Turns out my opportunity for a long ride has no changed to this Sat, so that gives me an extra couple of days to recover from it too.

    I did feel pretty wasted at the end of the 72, but it was a solo effort with 4000ft of climbing.
    2020 Reilly Spectre - raw titanium
    2020 Merida Reacto Disc Ltd - black on black
    2015 CAAD8 105 - very green - stripped to turbo bike
    2018 Planet X Exocet 2 - grey

    The departed:

    2017 Cervelo R3 DI2 - sold
    Boardman CX Team - sold
    Cannondale Synapse - broken
    Cube Streamer - stolen
    Boardman Road Comp - stolen
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    If it takes you that long to recover, then your recovery routine needs work. Go for a long ride Monday and recover with a glass cranks ride over the next couple days.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • davep1
    davep1 Posts: 836
    Grill wrote:
    If it takes you that long to recover, then your recovery routine needs work. Go for a long ride Monday and recover with a glass cranks ride over the next couple days.

    Can you expand more on recovery routine? What would consititute the Monday long ride, 2 hrs at 65% HR? And what are glass cranks?
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    One more long ride a week before the event isn't going to make a world of difference. If you're not confident you'll be recovered it's not worth risking it. Do something more conservative. More is not necessarily better.
    Besides even if a solo 72 miles left you exhausted you may well discover additional reserves during an event! You'll save energy drafting and the atmosphere of an event usually helps produce performances you can't manage in training.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    I find that ingesting a good carb protein mix (3:1) right after a long/hard ride is essential. Any milkshake is good as is a couple of bananas. If it's been a really difficult ride (long TT or 300k+) then I wear compression socks for a couple hours afterwards. As for the ride the following day, I don't pay attention to HR- I just ride class cranks. Basically it's as it sounds. Pretend your cranks are made of glass and you don't want to break them. 2+ hours like this is fine.

    If I'm planning on doing several days of long rides (say 100 miles a day over a week), I just dial back my effort (try not to hit z5 for too long) and climb in z3-4 at low cadence (sounds counter-intuitive but works really well for me).
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • JayKosta
    JayKosta Posts: 635
    On topic of 'recovery' ....
    After any hard or long exercise session, having some easy to digest carbs and protein within 30 minutes of completion is very good. It helps replensih glycogen (carbs) and muscle repair/strengthen (protein).

    An easy source is a quart / liter of low-fat chocolat milk. Or a mix of whey protein powder and Gatorade-type drink.
    About 20 grams of protein and 40-60 grams of 'sugar' (carbs) is a good serving size.

    Jay Kosta
    Endwell NY USA
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    I'm guessing glass cranks is a ride where you deliberately don't put in a lot of power through the cranks, run gears much lower than you would normally do etc?
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    I'm guessing glass cranks is a ride where you deliberately don't put in a lot of power through the cranks, run gears much lower than you would normally do etc?

    Yup.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    There is an awful lot of confusion about "recovery" and this post is an example.

    Unless you are going at absolute max effort 100% of the time (e.g doing a 100 mile time trial) a 100 mile ride shouldn't take more than day off to recover from.

    Even if you are going 100% then a couple of days off is enough.

    What will harm fitness is taking successive days rest with no training. Your body will quickly change to from becoming fitter to becoming unfitter, much more quickly than the other way round.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • ai_1
    ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    bahzob wrote:
    There is an awful lot of confusion about "recovery" and this post is an example.

    Unless you are going at absolute max effort 100% of the time (e.g doing a 100 mile time trial) a 100 mile ride shouldn't take more than day off to recover from.

    Even if you are going 100% then a couple of days off is enough.

    What will harm fitness is taking successive days rest with no training. Your body will quickly change to from becoming fitter to becoming unfitter, much more quickly than the other way round.
    All of your posts seem to suggest more is always better but have you got any evidence for this?
  • davep1
    davep1 Posts: 836
    bahzob wrote:
    There is an awful lot of confusion about "recovery" and this post is an example.

    Unless you are going at absolute max effort 100% of the time (e.g doing a 100 mile time trial) a 100 mile ride shouldn't take more than day off to recover from.

    Even if you are going 100% then a couple of days off is enough.

    What will harm fitness is taking successive days rest with no training. Your body will quickly change to from becoming fitter to becoming unfitter, much more quickly than the other way round.

    I'm not sure I would agree with that, and it must depend on the individual surely? Your age, your experience, what you did last time you were out?

    I'd also suggest for most of us on here, 100 mile rides are still outside of the norm, so most of us would feel a bit knackered after one, whether we had done it flat out or not.

    I am restricted on time personally, so I tend to go for shorter rides where I push myself harder, and find it difficult to do recovery rides, it feels counter-intuitive even though I know recovery rides are good.

    Grill, thanks for the info.

    OP, something else to add, I don't think I have seen any training programmes that say to do anything serious in the week before the event. Maybe a 2 hr recovery ride 4-5 days before and then leave it. This experience will help you in the next one.
  • ic.
    ic. Posts: 769
    Thanks for all the info

    My plan is to go out on Saturday for a scheduled 5 hours, but have a bail out point should I feel I need it. The bail out point will come after 3 hours / 3000ft climbing so it will be a quality ride whatever.

    I think I was a bit nervous about a long ride 6 days before the event, but now I have an opportunity to do it 8 days before I feel more relaxed about it.

    I'm not concerned about fitness for the event especially, I know I've prepared better for this than for any other event I've done. I'm 35lbs lighter and considerably fitter. I think my worry came from ruining my hard work by pushing it too much too close to the event.

    Thanks again
    2020 Reilly Spectre - raw titanium
    2020 Merida Reacto Disc Ltd - black on black
    2015 CAAD8 105 - very green - stripped to turbo bike
    2018 Planet X Exocet 2 - grey

    The departed:

    2017 Cervelo R3 DI2 - sold
    Boardman CX Team - sold
    Cannondale Synapse - broken
    Cube Streamer - stolen
    Boardman Road Comp - stolen
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    DaveP1 wrote:
    ..
    OP, something else to add, I don't think I have seen any training programmes that say to do anything serious in the week before the event. Maybe a 2 hr recovery ride 4-5 days before and then leave it. This experience will help you in the next one.

    Most good training plans should cover this. Its called "race" prep or "taper."

    I am afraid your advice is absolutely wrong and if followed would lead to much of the hard earned benefits of training being lost. It only takes a few days of rest for your body to switch to its preferred default state>couch potato.

    Standard advice for the taper period is
    Reduce quantity, keep intensity up.

    So for a sportive you should do an hour or so including some quality work at least every other day. Just warm-up and do some efforts at those similar you would plan to do climbs at. Then
    Event - 2 days: Have a day of complete rest.
    Event - 1 day: Do a short workout as above.



    So you re
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    Ai_1 wrote:
    All of your posts seem to suggest more is always better but have you got any evidence for this?

    Actually they don't. I don't believe spending hours of doing long slow rides is a very effective way to spend your time, especially if you have a real life to lead. Hence why I often recommend the "Time Crunched Cyclist" training plan since it places a premium on the quality rather than the duration of workouts.

    With this proviso than yes I believe spending 10 hours a week will get you to your fitness goals quicker than doing 4 hours a week and there is ample evidence both empirical and anecdotal to support this.

    I also believe that amateurs get too concerned about "recovery" to an extent that is detrimental if their goal is to be the best they can be. This is because
    - They, quite wrongly, apply "recovery" concepts from dedicated professional riders who will do 20+ hours a week including doubling up daily workouts to their training.
    - They ignore the counterexample from the professional world that the huge load long tours is one of the best forms of training and are often used to peak for one off events (e.g. Bradley Wiggins winning Olympic TT)
    - They misinterpret the "good" symptoms of adaptation as bad signs to be avoided, so train less than they could/should
    - They over recover (evidenced in some of the advice above) to an extent that actually reverses the positive effects of their training plan
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    One of the very best running books I've read (which claims to be equally relevant for cycling - and I've no reason to believe it wouldn't be) suggests that long and slow very much has its place in a training plan. There are two reasons for this:
    1. It encourages fat-burning adaptations giving you more sources of fuel
    2. It has a low demand on your glycogen stores (because of 1) and allows you to build endurance without compromising your "hard/fast" sessions.

    The book actually argues that the mid-range training (70-85% HRmax) is of least value from an effectiveness point of view.

    Whilst it's anecdotal, I've found it works for me - especially when I'm using commuting (30-40 miles a day) as part of my training. I can get to the end of the week with something left in my legs.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    While there are some similarities running is very different from cycling in that it causes a lot more stress on the body.

    That's why running training plans may well emphasise "recovery" time e.g.http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/three-keys-to-injury-free-running?feed=70c86158-aad7-4b07-8cc3-7c383b9bd61b&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+trainingpeaks%2FXAlX+%28TrainingPeaks+Blog%29

    Note though that this says ".... recommends a better balance between training and recovery and encourages no more than two to three training days without a recovery day." Key thing here is that even for a more stressful sport like running the guide is do 2-3 days training then take a recovery day. Not as some above suggest taking days to recover after just 1 day of training.

    As for the advice, its familiar long steady distance aka "LSD". While fine this is really is not the best use of time if your objective to be the best you can be and time is limited. If conditions permit at least 3 of 5 days of a weekly commute would be better spent doing intervals.

    It makes sense that runners are advised to avoid mid range as it increases the risk of injury without comparable benefits in terms of fitness gain. The same does not apply to cycling and the "mid" range aka "sweetspot" is a very good training zone. Again when commuting you would be better off spending time in it compared to LSD.

    (see here for one article on sweetspot http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Archivedarticles/Four%20Powerful%20Keys%20to%20Winter%20Training.pdf
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    It's far more to do with the adaptations than it is to do with stresses (which is not surprising because muscles are muscles in endurance sports). The book has a cycling section and includes cycling plans. They only differ in having less rest days. The alternating slow & fast is exactly the same. Even you suggest doing sprint intervals 3 of 5 days commuting which is pretty much exactly what the book says. On the alternate days it suggests you go very slow but ideally AT LEAST an hour better still 2 hours. For me the sense that it makes is that it concentrates your adaptations. The "middle ground" is neither here nor there.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH