Headset woes

nigelgos
nigelgos Posts: 128
edited May 2014 in Workshop
I think my headset needs new bearings. There is a gritty feel when I turn with the wheel with it off the ground and slight play when I have the front brake on and rock the bike - though it is only slight. The bike was owned from new and is probably at about 6k miles in all weather.


1) Is there any further testing to diagnose if I do need replacements?
2) Is my mileage about right for needing new ones?
3) What do I need to buy? The bike is an Spec Allez Sport 2011 - googling seems to suggest these http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cane ... -prod11266
4) Are these completely internal so it doesn't matter that they are silver (my headset is all white atm)?
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Comments

  • JustinLeeAtkinson
    JustinLeeAtkinson Posts: 335
    You may or may not need new bearings, do the bars still turn freely? If so it may be that you just need to clean and regrease the bearings, the bottom one is most likely to be the culprit. Water and dirt can get in when riding in bad weather.

    If you do need new bearings take the current ones in to your LBS they should be able to identify them, it can be a bit of a minefield. And yes the colour of the bearings themselves makes no difference as you wont see them!

    As for the slight play this shouldn't be down to the bearings if you have the right size bearings in. You need to tighten the headset as it may have worked loose.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    "about 6k miles in all weather"

    If this is without mudguards I'd say the lower bearing has done well but is probably buggered.

    Next diagnostic test is to take it to bits and give the bearings a good looking at. With loose or caged bearings sometimes you can get away with a clean and regrease. You can also extend the life of a headset by doing away with the cage and using loose bearings which then sit in slightly different positions. Another cheapskate trick is to swap the bearings and possibly the cups from top to bottom. This obviously only works if they are identical.
    If they are sealed cartridge bearings and feeling rough, replacement is the only practical option. Look for clues about the size etc printed / etched on the bearings themselves.
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    The bar does turn freely, but as mentioned there is a light gritty feel to it.

    My mileage is without mudguards.

    I'll try taking it apart and giving it a clean and re-grease.
  • mattv
    mattv Posts: 992
    It's what's called a "mindset" in your bike. It's 2 deep sleeves with loose balls between them. You can actually knock out the entire lot and replace with after market cartridge bearings. At that age, I'm not sure if the bearings you need will be 41mm or 41.8mm.
  • crankycrank
    crankycrank Posts: 1,830
    Also if you're not aware you can pry off the seals to your current bearings and flush them out with solvent, dry, work some new grease inside and replace the seals. Provided they're not worn out already you can extend the life of sealed bearings roughly 3+ times by just doing this every 6 months-1 year depending on your riding conditions.
  • mattv
    mattv Posts: 992
    Except they are not cartridge bearings, there are no seals, and when you lift out the fork the bearings will almost certainly fall out over the floor.
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    Plenty previous posts on removing Mindset headsets and replacing with cartridge on here. Bearing size and other info for that bike are here

    http://service.specialized.com/collater ... -Guide.pdf
  • redscouse
    redscouse Posts: 157
    I recently changed my headset on 2012 specialized allez compact. and i had not done this before but gave it a go, many videos n youtube to take guidance from.

    cane creak headset finder is your friend put in details of bike and tells you what to buy.

    Took top cap off loosened stem bolts removed the bar, and fork came out ...top bearings were fine but bottom bearings rusted and bone dry , bearing cage broke in 3 pieces and crown race was fused to the stem.

    chased out some components in steerer tube gently with hammer and screwdriver, could not get crown race off stem, took it to LBS and he used special park tool to remove crown race(£10.00). Then I completed the job at home and put in the new cartridge bearings ...apart from the fused crown race, an easy job .
    riding a canyon endurace
    spesh allez
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    How timely, I’m planning on doing the same on the exact same bike (2011 Allez Sport).

    I was considering ordering a Cane Creek 40-series IS41 headset (which I'm sure would do the job), but was a bit unimpressed that the cheapest price I could find was £35, when all that I really want is the bearings. So I’ve ordered some cartridge bearings from Superstar (well known in the mountain biking world, but not so much with roadies) which I’m hoping will do the job. After having read lots of threads of the matter I’m just going to take the plunge and see what happens.

    I understand that after I’ve knocked out the black cups in the frame the cartridge bearings should slot straight into the head tube and I can discard the cups and cages. Do I need to keep the original crown race in place, or does that have to go as well? I’ll be reusing the original compression ring and I know I might have to use a spacer on top of that to stop the headset cover from binding the top of the head tube. Anything else I should be aware of?
  • redscouse
    redscouse Posts: 157
    sounds about right..my crown race was fused to the steerer tube..so was removed and a crown race that came with the crane creek was fitted...all slotted perfectly..greased it all up ..the spacers that were on the bike worked fine
    riding a canyon endurace
    spesh allez
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Hmmm, so what was the differences in crown races? Will I get away with using the original one (sounds dubious), or will I have to source a new one that is at least designed for use with cartridge bearings?
  • redscouse
    redscouse Posts: 157
    now that i couldn't tell you..came with the crane creak headset...you may be able to use the old one if bearings match up
    riding a canyon endurace
    spesh allez
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    Hmmm, so what was the differences in crown races? Will I get away with using the original one (sounds dubious), or will I have to source a new one that is at least designed for use with cartridge bearings?

    Crown race interface has to match the bearing - as does compression ring - they come either 36 or 45 degrees (Cane Creek or Campy standard). So if your are using Cane Creek bearings you need a crown race and compression ring with 36 degree interface. The link to the Spesh Frame Compatability document tells you what angle your Mindset bearing is and the crown race and compression rings that were OEM matched that.
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    I took it apart and as someone above said would happen I lost a couple of bearings. As the bike was going into the LBS this morning anyway (wanted a cable stay re-taping and I don't have the tool) I've asked him to replace the bearings.

    It seemed a bit of a minefield getting the correct stuff.
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    nigelgos wrote:
    I took it apart and as someone above said would happen I lost a couple of bearings. As the bike was going into the LBS this morning anyway (wanted a cable stay re-taping and I don't have the tool) I've asked him to replace the bearings.

    It seemed a bit of a minefield getting the correct stuff.

    Haha, that's exactly the same reason I'm doing mine! A couple of ball bearings popped out last time I was servicing it and I couldn't find them again despite 30 mins of searching. I rearranged the balls so that the two empty spaces were opposite each other and stuffed that cage in the top (which I presume takes much less load) and it's been fine all winter, but I'm going to sort it properly now.

    Thanks for that wishitwasallflat, I'll post back with how I fair with the Superstar bearings. I'm fairly confident they will fit fine (perhaps along with a spacer) but I can't be too sure until I get in there.
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    Got it back from the LBS who said he couldn't fit new bearings. It's still worse than before I tinkered with it (lost a couple of bearings myself) and he still charged me for the privilege.

    So this tech doc (http://service.specialized.com/collater ... -Guide.pdf) lists my Allez Sport 2011 both upper and lower as MindSet ACB 36x45, 41mm OD x 6.5mm.

    Despite reading all the above I'm still completely at a loss about how to fix this.

    Are these http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cane ... -prod11266 that I listed in my OP appropriate for a straight swap? The talk about chasing out some components in steerer with hammer and screwdriver sounds a little scary.
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    Anyone got anything to add, shall I just order those and give it a go?
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    No! They won't fit without chasing out the cups that are already present in the headtube. A bike shop should be able to at least do that for you and you can finish the job yourself, but that might still involve some modifications as discussed in all the other threads.

    Are the cages that the bearings slot into still in good condition? If so, you could just buy some new ball bearings (not sure what size they are, but google probably has an answer for you) and pop them into the cages. This should be good for another few thousand miles unless the cups are noticeably worn.

    I'm going to give mine a go this weekend, so if you can wait that long then I might be able to proffer some more advice!

    Edited to add: the thread below suggests a ball park for the ball bearing sizes, could just head down to a hardware shop and see what looks closest. Should only cost a few quid for a little bag of those.

    Otherwise, if the balls you lost were from the bottom cage, switch the top cage with the bottom (see my post above) and that'll get you back on the road, but don't mix and match them as the bottom ones will likely be a lot more worn than the top.

    http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/specil ... ze.135876/
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    Thanks
    I'll let you have a bash this weekend, the bike is ride-able as it is but the missing bearings are making it more 'cluncky'.
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Ok, no worries.

    Assuming everything goes to plan, I'll take some photos of the process and post them up as a reference.
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    Did you manage to have a go at this over the weekend?
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Hi Nigel, unfortunately I got waylaid with other things this weekend.

    The bearings and all my tools are on the other side of the country, otherwise I probably would have tried it and broken my bike several times over already. Sorry if you're waiting on my report, but I will definitely be giving it a try this coming weekend!
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    No worries, I'm in no desperate need. Mine is working just not smooth.

    Good luck when you get round to it :)
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    It worked! As I suspected, you don't need a whole new headset, you just need the correct sealed cartridge bearings and you can recycle the rest of the bits from the Mindset that is already there. Mine didn't need the spacer under the top cover as mentioned by some other people, was perfect just reassembling as it was.

    I'll post up some pictures tomorrow when I get a minute.

    These are the bearings I used for my 2011 Allez Sport (type 1 in link):

    http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_ ... cts_id=810
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    There you go:

    viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12963941
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    Thanks a bunch for this! Great help. I've just ordered the same sealed cartridge bearings you linked to. Pretty good price on them.

    Knocking out the headset cups will be the difficult bit, I'm not sure I have the confidence in my LBS as they have already looked at my headset unsuccessfully.
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    No worries, good luck.

    Regarding the headset cups, I went at one for a good 30 mins with the hammer and screwdriver and it didn't budge a millimeter! I'm usually not averse to spending money on the proper tools, but the cheapest I could find the proper drift for was ~£35, which I thought was a bit pricey for a one-off job; I'm sure that would make the task a whole lot easier though.

    Let me know how you get on!

    P.S. I know my headset top cover isn't the stock white one, I just switched it over from a 2010 Allez Sport for aesthetic reasons; the two were identical as far as I could tell.
  • nigelgos
    nigelgos Posts: 128
    Cartridge bearings have arrived from superstar with free haribo and random stickers too :D

    Hopefully I'll have a crack at this at the weekend.
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Hehe, yeah I noticed they're 'borrowing' Wiggle's tactics of bribery with sweets. I don't even really like Haribo but I ate them anyway.

    It's good to see a small UK-based manufacturing company doing well these days, I've been very happy with stuff I've bought off them in the past, my only annoyance is that they only stock a small range of stuff. I guess they like to concentrate on what they do best and not waste their time on low margin stuff like chainring bolts!
  • kiwimatt
    kiwimatt Posts: 208
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    No worries, good luck.

    Regarding the headset cups, I went at one for a good 30 mins with the hammer and screwdriver and it didn't budge a millimeter!

    Have a go using a big enough screwdriver and rubber mallet - you need to sort of 'step wiggle' it out left/right/left/right style. Give it a good manly whack... :) HTH

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