Drinking on a bike

borisface

The last few weeks I've been going out with a bottle of plain water and have been coming home having drunk maybe half of it. More recently, I have started using some high 5 or isostar. What I have noticed is that not only have I drunk everything, but I have felt like I needed more. The duration of my rides hasn't really altered and my intensity, if anything has reduced. I don't think the temperature has really altered (I don't live in the UK). I also don't feel noticeably different after the ride.

What I am thinking is that the salts put in these drinks make you thirstier and encourage you to drink more. Is this a good thing?

meanredspider

Drinking more is a good thing. And getting some small amount of salts back into you is a good thing too. Whether the salts cause you drink more, I don't know. Since they're also flavoured, that might make them more palatable.

drlodge

borisface wrote:

More recently, I have started using some high 5 or isostar. What I have noticed is that not only have I drunk everything, but I have felt like I needed more.

More recently you say...has the weather been warmer? I drink alot more as the weather warms up, yesterday being a perfect example.

When its warm I would drink around 1 litre or more High5 Isotonic every 50 miles. When its cold less than half that.

markhewitt1978

drlodge wrote:

borisface wrote:

More recently, I have started using some high 5 or isostar. What I have noticed is that not only have I drunk everything, but I have felt like I needed more.

More recently you say...has the weather been warmer? I drink alot more as the weather warms up, yesterday being a perfect example.

When its warm I would drink around 1 litre or more High5 Isotonic every 50 miles. When its cold less than half that.

Same here. In the summer I head out with a full bottle and it will always come back empty. In the winter I can often do a full ride and forget to drink anything!

meanredspider

borisface wrote:

I don't think the temperature has really altered (I don't live in the UK).

drlodge wrote:

...has the weather been warmer? I drink alot more as the weather warms up, yesterday being a perfect example.

markhewitt1978

In very hot areas it's not uncommon to take salt tablets, for example, to replace that you lose sweating.

drlodge

meanredspider wrote:

borisface wrote:

I don't think the temperature has really altered (I don't live in the UK).

drlodge wrote:

...has the weather been warmer? I drink alot more as the weather warms up, yesterday being a perfect example.

Good spot.

Just another thought - isotonic stuff helps absorption of the fluid, so it might be the drink is being absorbed more quickly into the body making the OP feel "thirsty" more quickly. The water would tend to sit in his stomach for longer and hence make him feel fuller for longer? Not 100% convinced by my own argument mind...!

borisface

Not much warmer, maybe 3 or 4 degrees difference maximum i.e. from 14 to 18. But some days cooler. Not in shorts yet.

Isotonic drinks are more palatable for sure. I was just wondering if the salts in the drinks made you thirstier leading you to drink more and so on. When I was a lad I used to use diluted orange juice with just a pinch of salt and one day I put too much salt in and it was awful. Of course the manufacturers might like that.

dwanes

Do your body a favour and just stick with water, and try to make a habit of regularly drinking.

Your body doesnt need all that crap/stuff they put in those energy drinks and maybe thats why you had a drop in performance.

If you feel you need energy during a ride then eat something. (try to anticipate when you are going to need food)

This way you know whats going into your body. Treat it with respect.

diamonddog

dwanes wrote:

Do your body a favour and just stick with water, and try to make a habit of regularly drinking.

Your body doesnt need all that crap/stuff they put in those energy drinks and maybe thats why you had a drop in performance.

If you feel you need energy during a ride then eat something. (try to anticipate when you are going to need food)

This way you know whats going into your body. Treat it with respect.

^^This, drinking little and often on rides works for me.

meanredspider

dwanes wrote:

Do your body a favour and just stick with water, and try to make a habit of regularly drinking.

Your body doesnt need all that crap/stuff they put in those energy drinks and maybe thats why you had a drop in performance.

If you feel you need energy during a ride then eat something. (try to anticipate when you are going to need food)

This way you know whats going into your body. Treat it with respect.

I didn't think the OP was talking about energy drinks just those with minerals/salts in that you lose through sweat?

drlodge

I prefer Isotonic to water for two reasons:
- it contains some carbs, helps with refuelling (to some extent)
- it contains salts/electrolytes

Therefore its better than water IMHO. At £18 for a 2kg drum, its works out relatively cheaply too.

borisface

meanredspider wrote:

dwanes wrote:

Do your body a favour and just stick with water, and try to make a habit of regularly drinking.

Your body doesnt need all that crap/stuff they put in those energy drinks and maybe thats why you had a drop in performance.

If you feel you need energy during a ride then eat something. (try to anticipate when you are going to need food)

This way you know whats going into your body. Treat it with respect.

I didn't think the OP was talking about energy drinks just those with minerals/salts in that you lose through sweat?

I was. Point I was trying to make is that I seem to be thirstier and drink more if I use them rather than just water.

slowbike

dwanes wrote:

Do your body a favour and just stick with water, and try to make a habit of regularly drinking.

Your body doesnt need all that crap/stuff they put in those energy drinks and maybe thats why you had a drop in performance.

If you feel you need energy during a ride then eat something. (try to anticipate when you are going to need food)

This way you know whats going into your body. Treat it with respect.

Hmmm I read it that the OP (and he's now confirmed) was using the zero cal/carb drinks - not the energy ones "with all that crap/stuff they put in" ...

Anyway - OP, I would think it depends how hard you're pushing/sweating as well - are you riding harder than before? AFAIK, thirst isn't driven by what's in your stomach ...

borisface

Trying less hard than before - keeping to zone 2.

dwanes

Your body is better and more resilient than you think. Stick with water, drink regularly.
Your body will learn to adapt without all those carbs constantly being loaded in, and in the long run you will be better and fitter for it.
If it comes to a 'big' ride beyond the norm, or a race, then carb drinks will have that added benefit.

You certainly don't need carb loaded drinks on most/ every ride, like I know some people do.

cyco2

borisface wrote:

What I am thinking is that the salts put in these drinks make you thirstier and encourage you to drink more. Is this a good thing?

The manufacturers put salts in the drink to replace electrolites and to help with the its absorbsion. The fact that it may makes you feel thirstier is a good thing. Because the bodies system of detecting dehydration and telling you to drink is practically useless.

hypster

Drinking more (than you need) is not a good thing.
Overconsumption can be positively dangerous.
Consuming salts (electrolytes) is not necessary either.

Watch the video

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterlogged-Ser ... B0081U6WWG

Read this article

http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlog ... -book.html

Or buy the book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterlogged-Ser ... B0081U6WWG

If you can't be bothered with any of them then the summary is as follows:-

1. Drink to thirst
2. Supplemental sodium is unnecessary in endurance competition
3. Consumption of roughly 60g of glucose per hour will improve performance

meanredspider

hypster wrote:

Drinking more (than you need) is not a good thing.
Overconsumption can be positively dangerous.
Consuming salts (electrolytes) is not necessary either.

Watch the video

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterlogged-Ser ... B0081U6WWG

Read this article

http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlog ... -book.html

Or buy the book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterlogged-Ser ... B0081U6WWG

If you can't be bothered with any of them then the summary is as follows:-

1. Drink to thirst
2. Supplemental sodium is unnecessary in endurance competition
3. Consumption of roughly 60g of glucose per hour will improve performance

I read the article and I'm not sure your summary is necessarily precise. For sure over-hydration is a Bad Thing in ultra runners. Drinking everything you can manage is not a good plan. What he does recommend is drinking 400-800ml per hour - I think that's probably more than most of us drink (certainly more than me). He says thirst is an OK indicator but what we're trying to do is avoid losing weight through water loss (without gaining it). I also thought some of the other conclusions were slightly stretched. I certainly find electrolyte tablets help stave off cramp for me - no, there's no scientific evidence for this but cramp is very poorly understood. I have a strong correlation which keeps me doing it. The fact that Gatorade might make cramp worse is totally irrelevant for me - never touch the stuff.

slowbike

dwanes wrote:

Your body is better and more resilient than you think. Stick with water, drink regularly.
Your body will learn to adapt without all those carbs constantly being loaded in, and in the long run you will be better and fitter for it.
If it comes to a 'big' ride beyond the norm, or a race, then carb drinks will have that added benefit.

You certainly don't need carb loaded drinks on most/ every ride, like I know some people do.

Did you even bother to read the OP ?!

hypster

meanredspider wrote:

I read the article and I'm not sure your summary is necessarily precise. For sure over-hydration is a Bad Thing in ultra runners. Drinking everything you can manage is not a good plan. What he does recommend is drinking 400-800ml per hour - I think that's probably more than most of us drink (certainly more than me). He says thirst is an OK indicator but what we're trying to do is avoid losing weight through water loss (without gaining it). I also thought some of the other conclusions were slightly stretched. I certainly find electrolyte tablets help stave off cramp for me - no, there's no scientific evidence for this but cramp is very poorly understood. I have a strong correlation which keeps me doing it. The fact that Gatorade might make cramp worse is totally irrelevant for me - never touch the stuff.

I agree that the cause of cramp is poorly understood. My experience is opposite to you - I have got cramp worse the more fluid/electrolytes I have consumed in the past because I erroneously believed that I was dehydrated and drunk more. As soon as I realised my mistake I stopped drinking and the cramp went away. I now consume about half the fluid I normally would on a ride and no electrolytes whatsoever and haven't had any problems. In fact, I find I recover after a long ride much more quickly now. Another good effect is I can go much further without having to fill my bottles and don't have to stop nearly as often to pee.

I also agree that the amounts he recommends to drink is probably more relevant to ultra runners so I guess we just have to find what works for each of us on a bike. Obviously ambient conditions play a big role but the general advice "drink to thirst" is sound I think whatever the activity and prevailing conditions. Loading up with liquid before an event to make sure you are well hydrated just seems nuts to me. When I think back most of the problems I have encountered on long rides (cramps, headaches etc.) have probably been caused by over hydration.

I've been following his advice for about 2 months now and so far it's all positives and no negatives as far as I can see.

pilot_pete

hypster wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I now consume about half the fluid I normally would on a ride and no electrolytes whatsoever and haven't had any problems... and don't have to stop nearly as often to pee.

The clues were there. If you had to stop often to pee whilst riding you either had a medical problem or were consuming more fluid than you needed to. It sounds like the latter. I did it once on a group ride which was at a lower intensity than I was used to and I kept the fluid intake up. It was an old timer who pointed out that I was obviously drinking more than I needed as I was stopping more often than him.....and he had prostate problems!!!

So it is interesting that you state that you have halved your fluid consumption from 'normal' . This makes it sound like the norm was for twice as much. It was what you perceived to be correct and became your norm, but was obviously too much.

I might pee once or twice in a hundred miles, usually at a cafe stop or the like and that is only because I am taking the opportunity, not because I am bursting.

I think the easiest rule of thumb is;

If your pee is not straw coloured you are probably not drinking enough, but if you are doing straw coloured pees every half an hour or so you are probably drinking too much!

PP

hypster

Pilot Pete wrote:

hypster wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I now consume about half the fluid I normally would on a ride and no electrolytes whatsoever and haven't had any problems... and don't have to stop nearly as often to pee.

The clues were there. If you had to stop often to pee whilst riding you either had a medical problem or were consuming more fluid than you needed to. It sounds like the latter. I did it once on a group ride which was at a lower intensity than I was used to and I kept the fluid intake up. It was an old timer who pointed out that I was obviously drinking more than I needed as I was stopping more often than him.....and he had prostate problems!!!

So it is interesting that you state that you have halved your fluid consumption from 'normal' . This makes it sound like the norm was for twice as much. It was what you perceived to be correct and became your norm, but was obviously too much.

I might pee once or twice in a hundred miles, usually at a cafe stop or the like and that is only because I am taking the opportunity, not because I am bursting.

I think the easiest rule of thumb is;

If your pee is not straw coloured you are probably not drinking enough, but if you are doing straw coloured pees every half an hour or so you are probably drinking too much!

PP

I think you're probably right but the received wisdom about hydration over the last 20-30 years that I've been cycling has been to drink more and keep well hydrated (promulgated by the energy drinks industry). If you're not peeing often then you are dehydrated. Professor Tim Noakes has debunked that whole idea and actually states that the fastest athletes usually finish an event 3% dehydrated or even more.

He also debunks the idea about the colour of your pee being an indication of the state of hydration and/or kidney function by the way. Another myth which has grown up over the years not supported by a shred of evidence but everybody seems to quote as if it's gospel. A bit like eating carrots helping you to see in the dark maybe?

You sound like you have your hydration strategy about right but there are an awful lot of people out there who don't and over hydrate as I used to. You only have to look around on the web to see there are a myriad of places advising people to drink more than they actually require, warning about the dangers of dehydration when in reality the biggest risk (to both performance and health) is over hydration.

meanredspider

I think you're overselling Dr Noakes' stuff a bit.

For starters, I've read over and over that there's no point in drinking more than a litre in an hour because it will just pass straight through you. That already gives an upper limit on hydration not a million miles north of Dr Noakes' own upper limit of 800ml.

Secondly the colour of pee thing: from what I read, he says that the body effectively regulates peeing WHILST you're exercising - hence the risk of overhydrating. But, that's not to say that AFTER exercise the colour of your pee isn't a good indicator of how well you are hydrated.

Personally, I'm not sure where all this risk of overhydration stuff has come from. I know a lot of people who do some pretty insane endurance challenges (from solo Puffer rides to Marathon des Sables) and I've never heard of anyone overhydrating. I also don't know anyone that advocates anything close to the risk levels. You'd need to be glugging a large bidon an hour even to meet Dr Noakes' upper ideal. To exceed that, in my opinion and experience would take quite some effort. I think it's a non-issue

PompeyPaul

borisface wrote:

The last few weeks I've been going out with a bottle of plain water and have been coming home having drunk maybe half of it. More recently, I have started using some high 5 or isostar. What I have noticed is that not only have I drunk everything, but I have felt like I needed more. The duration of my rides hasn't really altered and my intensity, if anything has reduced. I don't think the temperature has really altered (I don't live in the UK). I also don't feel noticeably different after the ride.

What I am thinking is that the salts put in these drinks make you thirstier and encourage you to drink more. Is this a good thing?

Yep and thats a good thing

hypster

meanredspider wrote:

I think it's a non-issue

It might be a non-issue for you but not for the increasing number of people dying and hospitalised by it. Google "hyponatremia cycling" for instance. It's more prevalent than you think and on the increase because many people assume that the symptoms they are experiencing are caused by dehydration and are drinking even more making things dangerously worse.

meanredspider

hypster wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I think it's a non-issue

It might be a non-issue for you but not for the increasing number of people dying and hospitalised by it. Google "hyponatremia cycling" for instance. It's more prevalent than you think and on the increase because many people assume that the symptoms they are experiencing are caused by dehydration and are drinking even more making things dangerously worse.

Well, I did just that. On the first page of results, most seemed to be from 2005. Picking one of the most recent just because it was the most recent, I got this

The prevalence of exercise-associated hyponatraemia (EAH) has been investigated in endurance athletes such as runners and Ironman triathletes, but not in ultra-endurance road cyclists. We assessed fluid intake and changes in body mass, urine specific gravity and plasma sodium concentration ([Na(+)]) in 65 ultra-endurance road cyclists in a 720-km ultra-cycling marathon, the 'Swiss Cycling Marathon'. The cyclists lost 1.5 (1.7)% body mass (P < 0.01). No athlete developed EAH. Fluid intake was associated with the change in plasma [Na(+)] (r = -0.32, P < 0.05) and the change in body mass (r = -0.30, P < 0.05). The change in plasma [Na(+)] was related to post-race plasma [Na(+)] (r = 0.63, P < 0.0001). To conclude, ad libitum fluid intake in ultra-endurance cyclists in a single-stage ultra-endurance road cycling race showed no case of EAH. Future studies regarding drinking behaviour in different ultra-endurance disciplines might give insights into why the prevalence of EAH is different in the different disciplines.

hypster

That study covered 65 cyclists in one event but I agree more research needs to be done. I try to keep an open mind about things especially if it could possibly affect my cycling performance which I have found the advice of Dr Noakes to do.

Maybe hyponatremia is a non-issue in cyclists but I still think over-hydration is a real possibility and has negatively affected my performance in the past. Hopefully I'm a bit wiser now.

Ben_twelveson

I must agree that water is the HOLY GRAIL. However I do feel a little tolerant towards some energy drinks and besides most of them contain pretty nasty ingredients, some can be beneficial to our body so it's up to us to find out which ones.







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