Climbing

il_principe

goonz wrote:

I've been selected by my company to ride up the Col du Tourmalet in August so need to begin training hard. I haven't climbed a mound let alone a hill all winter so have a lot of work to do.

Am tempted to take the SS up to Swains Lane and attack it a few times or even down to Leith and give that a try.

Pretty apprehensive, not sure how I will do but I know I want to beat everyone else so that's all the motivation i need.

Attacking swains/leith will not be good training for the Tourmalet, and I speak as someone who has ridden it a few times. Tackled it last year as part of the Raid with a 34/23 (thanks to derailleur issues :oops: )

Assuming you have the luxury of tackling the Tourmalet on its own rather than having already got a Col or 2 on your legs, then it is eminently 'smashable'. A handy amateur can do it in 1:10 or so, but 1:30 should be in reach of any keen roadie provided they've trained properly and don't mind pushing it.

Treat it like a long TT and train accordingly. A long climb like the Tourmalet just requires a sustained effort. What works for me is to plan a route with a long section (25/30 miles) where you can hammer along with minimal interruption. Ideally this route should be flat or flattish and you should be aiming to sustain a high mph for the duration. You'll soon learn what speed/hr you can hold for an hour and a half or so. Hit this route often as part of your training and you'll be golden (IME).

On the day just make sure you warm up, then concentrate on finding an rhythm and keeping your HR at a sustainable level. Also if you can, set up your bike computer to give you a rider to compete against. Just set them the time that you fancy achieving and make sure you stay ahead of them. Garmin100 series can do this. I also like to programme the ride in so I can see what gradient is coming up and how far I have to go, this can help a lot. (Music can help as well but I know some will frown on this).

Finally, if you can, then ride the mountain before the event and enjoy, it is beautiful.

goonz

Cheers for the advice, I got a training camp in Belgium next month with Alex Zanardi at a top sports clinic who will test our fitness and give us training tips. Will be there same weekend as LBL so hopefully will catch that too!

LiveGiantly

The Rookie wrote:

I am far from 'very fit' but regularly do two climbs, one is 500ft over 2.2m (fairly continuous gradient), the other 1500ft in 3.7m (with some much 'steeper than average' sections - strava grade 4), it's just getting the right gear you can continually spin.

I agree!

The Rookie

hegyestomi wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

I am far from 'very fit' but regularly do two climbs, one is 500ft over 2.2m (fairly continuous gradient), the other 1500ft in 3.7m (with some much 'steeper than average' sections - strava grade 4), it's just getting the right gear you can continually spin.

Where is that if I may ask?

Not very local I'm afraid!
http://www.strava.com/segments/753296 there are some segments within that segment for the grade 4's which you can see in this ride of mine (rental 21 speed MTB weighing about 14Kg just to get the excuses in) http://www.strava.com/activities/85656855/ , it also includes the other climb mentioned which is called Mutha (also as Mutha ghat - ghat just meaning hill)

To clarify, I'm 47, at 12.5 stone I'm probably 2-3lbs heavier than ideal (though far from fat) and not a regular road rider.

This one tomorrow http://www.strava.com/segments/1053236, I was entered into a race (for the craik only) on this route but it got postponed until next week when I won't be here dammit!

Unless you want to practice out of the saddle climbing, you don't need a hill to practice, just get in the right gear for the pedal effort and cadence and it doesn't matter how fast the bike is going!

meanredspider

The Rookie wrote:

Unless you want to practice out of the saddle climbing, you don't need a hill to practice, just get in the right gear for the pedal effort and cadence and it doesn't matter how fast the bike is going!

I've been told this a few times (living mostly in Holland and training for AD6 (Alpe D'Huez 6x - Alpe DuZes)) but I'm not totally convinced. The big difference is momentum and therefore quite what the pedal strokes are and where in the stroke you need to be pushing and how hard. For sure, there's some things you can do but, to properly replicate a hill, I've found you really need a hill. A strong wind helps but somehow that's also not quite the same in how the momentum drains off.

ugo.santalucia

Il Principe wrote:

Assuming you have the luxury of tackling the Tourmalet on its own rather than having already got a Col or 2 on your legs, then it is eminently 'smashable'. A handy amateur can do it in 1:10 or so, but 1:30 should be in reach of any keen roadie provided they've trained properly and don't mind pushing it.

You need to be a pretty good climber to do 1400 metres in 1:10... that's a VAM close to 1200 mt/h... it is doable by a top amateur, someone in the top 5% of a hilly sportive event

The Rookie

meanredspider wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

The big difference is momentum and therefore quite what the pedal strokes are and where in the stroke you need to be pushing and how hard.

Other than the inertia response being different it is the same, and inertia only comes into play if you have a poor pedalling technique that results in you speeding and slowing as you go....that is for sitting and spinning, does not apply for out the saddle obviously.

solsurf

LiveGiantly wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

I am far from 'very fit' but regularly do two climbs, one is 500ft over 2.2m (fairly continuous gradient), the other 1500ft in 3.7m (with some much 'steeper than average' sections - strava grade 4), it's just getting the right gear you can continually spin.

I agree!

continually spin, if only I was strong enough, going up the struggle at the weekend I would say stand on the peddles rather than spin. Spinning is fine as long as you are strong enough but when it gets to 20 + % it gets difficult

hoven

I love climbing too, is there any possible we can climb together?

markhewitt1978

solsurf wrote:

continually spin, if only I was strong enough, going up the struggle at the weekend I would say stand on the peddles rather than spin. Spinning is fine as long as you are strong enough but when it gets to 20 + % it gets difficult

Same, 34/30 gets me up almost anything by just sitting and spinning, but 20% climbs are a different matter.

roger_merriman

markhewitt1978 wrote:

solsurf wrote:

continually spin, if only I was strong enough, going up the struggle at the weekend I would say stand on the peddles rather than spin. Spinning is fine as long as you are strong enough but when it gets to 20 + % it gets difficult

Same, 34/30 gets me up almost anything by just sitting and spinning, but 20% climbs are a different matter.

that is purely gearing, at 30in 20% is a grunt, on the old MTB even with paniers and stuff plus gearing of 22/34 (17in) allow one to just slowly spin up 20% average hills with ramps well into the 30% range.

clearly for most people its over the top, but equally if one wanted to spin up any hill how ever steep its perfectly possible.

pollys_bott

memsley89 wrote:

In the wise words of Matt Bottrill, Power Up!

5 - Power based intervals - for increased strength

Find a climb of around 4 - 5 minutes.

20 mins warm up high cadence, don't concentrate on power or heart rate, start the climb at 70 revs, eg 53 x 17, then each minute drop it down one sprocket, descend the climb and repeat, keep doing the intervals until you can't take anymore!

When he says drop it down a sprocket does it mean into a smaller cog or larger? I assume smaller to make the climb harder but if someone could confirm that would be good, thanks...

markhewitt1978

Yeah you go down by means of going into a larger sprocket! Gears are talked about in terms of being low to high with low being the easiest to pedal and high being the hardest. Whereas physically on the cassette the low gears have big cogs and the high gears have small cogs.

pollys_bott

Mmmmmm... but how does putting it into a bigger sprocket help? The title of the workout is "Power based intervals - for increased strength". Maybe it's my lack of understanding but I'm struggling to see how riding in an easier gear increases your power / strength for climbing. :? It says "keep doing the intervals until you can't take anymore" - surely you arrive at that state by making the workout progressively harder, not easier?

drlodge

Pollys Bott wrote:

Mmmmmm... but how does putting it into a bigger sprocket help? The title of the workout is "Power based intervals - for increased strength". Maybe it's my lack of understanding but I'm struggling to see how riding in an easier gear increases your power / strength for climbing. :? It says "keep doing the intervals until you can't take anymore" - surely you arrive at that state by making the workout progressively harder, not easier?

As you work you become knackered, so you drop down to a lower gear as you go. Its like lifting weights, starting with a heavy weight and moving to lighter ones as your strength gets sapped.

pollys_bott

OK, I get that, thanks... but how does that increase your power? Isn't it more a test of endurance? Or is it me incorrectly thinking that you can only increase your power by pushing harder gears and / or lower cadences?

mrc1

I started off reading this thread, with a worry that the advice would get progressively worse as it went on (a la many an old thread), but have got to page 4 with a smile on my face, as lots of the advice is good and we seem to have avoided the "I don't have enough strength in my legs to turn the pedals so I'm off to do squats" type advice.

While certain sections of the Fred are impossible to gear for due to their steepness, the vast bulk of it, will be best trained for by focussing on your aerobic energy system's (i.e. sub threshold/FTP - the point at which your anaerobic system begins to take over) output, through longer duration intervals and ensuring you have a gear that will enable you to keep turning the pedals at as close to your self selected cadence as possible for all but the worst of it. It is this that will get you through the day as a whole and ensure you can deal with the vast bulk of the work on the day without dipping into the red.

For the sections where your aerobic energy system simply cannot provide enough output (i.e. when the road hits 25%), then you will need to call upon your anaerobic energy system, which is trained through shorter duration intervals. The problem with your anaerobic energy system is that it has a limited time span (somewhere between 1-5 mins at a time) and can only be deployed a relatively small number of times during any event (the concept of "burning matches"), so it cannot be relied on for anything more than a small part of the bigger picture. Equally, as another poster has mentioned, doing ultra low cadence work is a fast way to injuring yourself and isn't a terribly efficient way of training, so do this sparingly.

So in summary, focus on threshold work and getting the miles in your legs for the bulk of your training at your self selected cadence, while also incorporating some anaerobic (i.e. short duration) intervals along the way. This will ensure your aerobic energy system is able to produce as much of the output on the day as possible and will minimise your burning of matches.

As for the Tourmalet, it depends on whether you are tackling it as a stand alone climb or as part of a longer ride, but the advice is largely the same - focus on threshold improvement through longer duration intervals. If it is just a straight up one climb TT then you can afford to dip into the red a little more (i.e. anaerobic efforts), but beware of doing this if it is part of a longer day. There is absolutely no point in blasting out hills reps on short UK hills as the bulk of your work, as they just aren't specific to the sustained high teen kilometre climbing of either the western or eastern side of the Tourmalet.

Have a read of the following:

http://www.ledomestiquetours.co.uk/tag/training/

I coach a wide range of clients covering a vast range of abilities and own Le Domestique Tours which specialises in events such as the Raid Pyrenees (which has the Tourmalet at its heart), so if there is one thing I know, its the Tourmalet... I recently spoke at a training for a sportive event in London and am doing another talk later this year, so PM if you would like to attend.

Kieran_Burns

Awesome response now pop on to the thread and tell MRS that he's mental for doing the damn Alp D'Huez 6 times in a row

mrc1

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Awesome response now pop on to the thread and tell MRS that he's mental for doing the damn Alp D'Huez 6 times in a row

Thanks - I commented on that one a while ago!

meanredspider

mrc1 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Awesome response now pop on to the thread and tell MRS that he's mental for doing the damn Alp D'Huez 6 times in a row

Thanks - I commented on that one a while ago!

Yes - very grateful - thx!

mrc1

meanredspider wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Awesome response now pop on to the thread and tell MRS that he's mental for doing the damn Alp D'Huez 6 times in a row

Thanks - I commented on that one a while ago!

Yes - very grateful - thx!

No worries - you need all the help you can get

meanredspider

mrc1 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

Awesome response now pop on to the thread and tell MRS that he's mental for doing the damn Alp D'Huez 6 times in a row

Thanks - I commented on that one a while ago!

Yes - very grateful - thx!

No worries - you need all the help you can get

Too funny - that's exactly the type of encouragement I need. I'm now pretty confident I'll reach my 10kg weight loss which is a good start. Working hard on the endurance right now. I might even see some slopes this weekend back in Scotland.