Cycle of Lies (book)

curium

Not finished yet but I thought it was interesting that two guys on Postal (don't have the names to hand) jacked it in mainly because they had alternatives based around college degrees but Lance saw his alternative as going to work in Starbucks!
When faced with such choices (and considering the upsides) how many of us slinging rocks from the side lines would do differently?

dennisn

philbar72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

philbar72 wrote:

... Landis ..... his head was never right either...

So you read this book. It said Landis never had his head right? Or is that your personal observation? In either case his head was never right compared to what?

My observation Dennis. I am allowed to do that right?

Compared to a normal rational human being, hope thats clear. Having said that the pressure these guys must have been under could well have broken most people. they all pretty much come up as "not normal".... but again this could be the authors writing style, as its a relatively one sided read.

Why can't these people be "normal"? Whatever that is? As for being under "pressure", it's my contention that you yourself are the only one that can create pressure.
It all seems to go back to the idea that since these guys ride a bike better than you that they are supermen in your eyes. I think you low rate yourselves. They are normal humans just like you and I. They have two of almost everything(arms, legs, ears). They most likely don't have a higher, or lower, IQ(give or take) than you or I. They put their pants on one leg at a time. How does any of this make them worthy of hero worship? Don't you have a job? Hopefully you're good at it. If you're an electrician do you think they could wire a house as well as you? How about if you were a woodworker? I would most likely hire you to do my new kitchen cabinets as opposed to Floyd Landis. Now, if I needed someone who could ride a bike fast then I might contact one of those boys.
These are simply human beings, no better no worse than the average person but for whatever reason they have been put on a pedestal and many people seem convinced that they are "better" (if you will) than the rest of us. We are to be in awe of them. Sad, actually.

ddraver

Still really burns for you doesnt it dennis....

dennisn

ddraver wrote:

Still really burns for you doesnt it dennis....

Not so sure it burns for me. You guys are the ones buying all the fanboy books and can't seem to get enough about your heros. Or are they anti heros? Those riders are nothing special to me but to you they seem to have taken hold of you and you can't let go.

ddraver

yet here you are - constatnly - on one issue - even ressurecting threads when we don't do it for you

let it go, he cheated you, he cheated many people. It's his fault not yours

let it go

mm1

curium wrote:

Not finished yet but I thought it was interesting that two guys on Postal (don't have the names to hand) jacked it in mainly because they had alternatives based around college degrees but Lance saw his alternative as going to work in Starbucks!
When faced with such choices (and considering the upsides) how many of us slinging rocks from the side lines would do differently?

I thought that was interesting too - wonderboy and Hincape basically scared of having to get a real job and others like Frankie silenced for a long time because they were reliant on the sport to make a living. When I read Tyler Hamilton's book, which gives a more vivid account of the sordid reality, I kept thinking why didn't he just give it up and find something else to do? As a college graduate, Tyler supposedly may have had more options outside the sport, but if wonderboy and others are to be believed Hamilton was one of the more reckless chargers?

Paulie W

...

philbar72

Blimey.

dennisn

mm1 wrote:

curium wrote:

Not finished yet but I thought it was interesting that two guys on Postal (don't have the names to hand) jacked it in mainly because they had alternatives based around college degrees but Lance saw his alternative as going to work in Starbucks!
When faced with such choices (and considering the upsides) how many of us slinging rocks from the side lines would do differently?

I thought that was interesting too - wonderboy and Hincape basically scared of having to get a real job and others like Frankie silenced for a long time because they were reliant on the sport to make a living. When I read Tyler Hamilton's book, which gives a more vivid account of the sordid reality, I kept thinking why didn't he just give it up and find something else to do? As a college graduate, Tyler supposedly may have had more options outside the sport, but if wonderboy and others are to be believed Hamilton was one of the more reckless chargers?

I sort of look upon Pro Sports as a real job. My real job required me to be at work daily, to do the best job I could, to work well with others(as a team), to move up the ladder if I showed I could handle it, to teach newer people the ropes. How does this differ from Pro Cycling as a "real" job? Other than I sat at a desk and worked on a computer as opposed to riding a bike.

As for why Tyler stayed in the sport? For the money, of course. He was a top tier rider and most likely very well paid. Why and or how is that a mystery?

dennisn

ddraver wrote:

yet here you are - constatnly - on one issue - even ressurecting threads when we don't do it for you

Just trying to keep you guys, and myself, from getting too bored or complacent. I'm trying to keep the hate alive. Most everyone here seems to thrive on it.

curium

This J.T. Neal character is new to me, hadn't come across him before. Really disgusting how Armstrong casts him aside without, apparently, any qualms.

Armstrong should of joined the armed forces, we could use more guys like him.

Anyone know if Frankie & Betsy are still together?

Kristin Armstrong is looking like a Louis-Vetton-wearing superbitch.

Anyone got a photo of Armstrong riding pre-cancer? I'm just curious due to the remarks in the book that his team-mates thought he was so brawny he could play for the Dallas Cowboys.

mm1

As for why Tyler stayed in the sport? For the money, of course. He was a top tier rider and most likely very well paid. Why and or how is that a mystery?[/quote]

Did you not wince at the stuff about bleeding in the street after visiting Fuentes, or when he realises that he's had a dodgy transfusion? It' a bit like the moment when it dawns that the seafood you've been eating isn't quite right. I admire Hamilton for his candor and that's why I prefer his (ghosted) first hand account to Macur's book. What I think I'm trying to say though is that I'm far too soft and squeamish to have survived in that environment (even if I had some athletic ability, which I don't) and that's why i'm amazed that Hamilton stuck it out...though it has to be said that he, like Landis and Zabriski have suffered for it since albeit that Landis, at least, seems likely to have the last laugh.

We could stop reading and talking about it I suppose, but I vividly remember the roar from the crowd on the Muur when Armstrong rode his last Flanders and for good or ill, that emotional involvement matters (otherwise all that sports are is statistics).

ddraver

dennisn wrote:

ddraver wrote:

yet here you are - constatnly - on one issue - even ressurecting threads when we don't do it for you

Just trying to keep you guys, and myself, from getting too bored or complacent. I'm trying to keep the hate alive. Most everyone here seems to thrive on it.

yeah, we only ever talk about one man on here...

fool

ddraver

curium wrote:

This J.T. Neal character is new to me, hadn't come across him before. Really disgusting how Armstrong casts him aside without, apparently, any qualms.

Nothing new or old for him by the sound of it, but yes an interesting story

Armstrong should have joined the armed forces, we could use more guys like him.

I ll bow to better knowledge there

Anyone know if Frankie & Betsy are still together?

Very much so - Catholic innit (no seriously, they re good)

Kristin Armstrong is looking like a Louis-Vetton-wearing superbitch.

'arf!

Anyone got a photo of Armstrong riding pre-cancer? I'm just curious due to the remarks in the book that his team-mates thought he was so brawny he could play for the Dallas Cowboys.

i think to a cyclist yes, to an actual real footbawl player - probably not. I remember a JV interview where he remembers sitting behind him "and his big triathlete shoulders". Armstrong thrashed himself around the whole course until JV and every other cyclist with a cycling brain sat behind and then attacked in the last few k to win

Edit - randomly, lazily browsing through youtube and came across - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlU2IfTJGyg

disgruntledgoat

I'm only finishing it because I spent a tenner on it. There is nearly nothing new in the book, the author was one of those journos who was happy cheering Armstrong unquestioningly to his Tour wins, a point she never even mentions in the book (at any point I've read up to) which rather dilutes its impact and leaves me with the impression that shes still trying to milk the last few drops out of her specialist subject.

Also, it spends pages explaining the sport over and over again, consistently repeats adjectives in the same paragraph and sometimes even sentence and uses words like "gruelling" "epic" and "superhuman" far too often.

Jez mon

I think it presents little new for those that have followed the story very closely, but to some extent, I'm not sure how much more stuff there is to what is already in the public domain. I do think it offered a thorough (if not succinct) story of Lance's rise to the top, and subsequent fall from grace.

As a story, I though Hamilton's was more enthralling.

As far as any revelations, I think Big George came across how I imagined, an OK(ish) guy, who becomes best friend with the playground bully, gets caught being a bit naughty and is forced to dob his best mate in to the teachers. Landis comes across as having some fairly deep issues, which I don't think I had appreciated. As for Lance, well the family stuff was new to me.

curium

Filippo Simeoni is new to me. Despicable behaviour by Armstrong on stage 18 of the 2004 tour

dennisn

disgruntledgoat wrote:

.... and leaves me with the impression that shes still trying to milk the last few drops out of her specialist subject.

I'm thinking that, in the cycling world, books about LA may continue to be published for some time. After all look how many books have been published about the Kennedy assassination(at least 50 some).
Not saying that ole Lance will reach reach those lofty heights but ya never know. The promise of NEW insights and information into the whole affair will draw people like a magnet and keep more than a few authors in spending money for some time. It could happen?
Maybe, much like the Kennedy assassination each new book on LA will be pushed as the "definitive version". And of course, no one wants to miss that. Wow, if I don't stop I may even convince myself.

dennisn

curium wrote:

Filippo Simeoni is new to me.

Really? Guess I thought everyone knew about that. :oops:

curium

WTF!?

Just up to the part where Landis & Leipheimer agree to help each other blood dope with out the aid of a health professional and while racing on separate teams.

Richmond Racer

curium wrote:

WTF!?

Just up to the part where Landis & Leipheimer agree to help each other blood dope with out the aid of a health professional and while racing on separate teams.

Pretty sure that little incident wasnt in Bottle's witness statement

At least some, if not all, of those witnesses were telling only partial truths - that's been clear from the start

ddraver

dennisn wrote:

curium wrote:

Filippo Simeoni is new to me.

Really? Guess I thought everyone knew about that. :oops:

One of Ned Boulting's finer hours...

andyrr

dennisn wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Still really burns for you doesnt it dennis....

Not so sure it burns for me. You guys are the ones buying all the fanboy books and can't seem to get enough about your heros. Or are they anti heros? Those riders are nothing special to me but to you they seem to have taken hold of you and you can't let go.

This is OT I think since this thread should really be about the book itself, the enjoyment or otherwise that we are gaining from it but as most doping-related topics veer off the OT I'll continue ...

I think Dennis HAS a very good point.
The thing is, ordinary people have always looked upon sport as something different. Hell even gladiators were viewed as heros despite often being slaves so in the modern world where so much history is attached to sports and so much money is now invested, by individuals and by corporations that it is unavoidable that the competitors, are 'heros' and are feted as such. Sometimes yes we DO need to stand back a bit and see that they are fallible, they are as 'human' as we are but I think 1 thing with regards to our sport, cycling, is that we can emulate their efforts and see how far short of their outcome we get - we can race up a hill and pretend it is Alpe d'Huez or we can even race up the very same hill we witness a pro racing up - Ventoux, Oude Kwaremont, Bosberg, and we see how feeble our effort compares, we know the pros will reach the top so much quicker having riden 150kms whilst we struggle up after 20kms
They routinely perform efforts we perceive as super-human efforts plus, at times, the actual racing, the inter-rider on-the-road battles can be exciting so we are drawn in.
However, we want what they are doing to be achieved only by their own blood sweat and tears through what genetic gifts they have inherited and the training they have undertaken. If their gains are not achieved in that true fashion then we (fairly / unfairly ?) loathe them for cheating us. All that may have happened is that they gave in to temptation but in trying to succeed at a 'job' that they and many of us see as much more than a normal day-to-day job
they were prepared cheat in a bigger way than people in 'ordinary' jobs might do.

I've just recently come across this (from back in 2011 so I am obviously a slow reader
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/bdff9f60 ... z1WXiyQD2O

from it something I found interesting : maybe explains the ingrained nature which an outsides, such as Millar, is subject to :
“Well, I think they had been waiting for the right time but here’s the thing: I think they thought they were helping me. In some weird way I think they thought, ‘Let’s start making David’s life easier, let’s stop him traumatising himself all the time by trying so hard.’ I think they wanted to put me out of my misery.”

ddraver

I dig your vibe, I guess you were nt aware of dennis pre-USADA. It's not the point I object to it's the total denial of being the forum fanboi for all those years before he could nt deny the unpleasant reality any more. That's what burns him, that's why he's still here trying to pretend that he never cared. If he didnt care, he wouldnt post, no different to the Sky haterz saying they "don't care about Sky" when they so clearly care very much indeed!

We SAW IT with our OWN EYES, so we know it's true. He's trying to treat us like idiots.

dennisn

ddraver wrote:

I dig your vibe, I guess you were nt aware of dennis pre-USADA. It's not the point I object to it's the total denial of being the forum fanboi for all those years before he could nt deny the unpleasant reality any more. That's what burns him, that's why he's still here trying to pretend that he never cared. If he didnt care, he wouldnt post, no different to the Sky haterz saying they "don't care about Sky" when they so clearly care very much indeed!

We SAW IT with our OWN EYES, so we know it's true. He's trying to treat us like idiots.

A good arguement on your part and I understand(I think) where you are coming from. The only part I can fault you in is that all you say might be true IF you actually knew me. However, I doubt you know me, much like I don't know you. Here's a little test to see how much you know me. I always cry when I hear bagpipes? True or false? I'm now retired but miss working and would like to go back? True or false? I have no, so called, LA memorabilia in my possession and never did have? True or false? The only cycling books I have ever read are shop manuals? True or false? I'll grade this on the curve.

jamie1012

curium wrote:

Anyone got a photo of Armstrong riding pre-cancer? I'm just curious due to the remarks in the book that his team-mates thought he was so brawny he could play for the Dallas Cowboys.

Pre-diagnosis, rather than pre-cancer, but it's startling how much bigger he was in '96 than in his tour-winning years.

Lichtblick

The book arrived today - it's much fatter/bigger than I thought it would be - can't wait to get started. There are so many spoilers in this thread that I'm having to skip over them.

No_Ta_Doctor

So ddraver, how well do you know Dennis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCnUsInBQws

curium

Wow

Just read about Phinney being poached just to fuck with Vaughters. Not great conduct from the young man.

Did Axel Merckx dope also?

ddraver

Not sure Axel ever tested positive but there was plenty of suspicion...

Finished it on the train. Was ok i thought, I agree that it was a tad over long and got a bit preachy toward the end. Interesting that despte his public appearances, Armstrong has in fact been hit really hard by the whole affair and is discovering the money can't by him love.