If it's not illegal, is it still cheating/doping?>>XENON BAN
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If it's on the WADA banned list, it's doping/cheating. Otherwise, not. Got to be guided by something and that's the best we have. Otherwise it's totally subjective and arbitrary.0
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underlayunderlay wrote:Does anyone know how xenon is supposed to work? It might just be lowering the partial pressure of oxygen in the air they're breathing, so essentially just a similar trick to the altitude tents you hear about. Could presumably use helium, which would enliven post-race interviews no end.
Hasn't cuddles been doing this for years?0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:How fast does CO clear? It's got a very high affinity for haemoglobin (far higher than O2). And does it do any lasting damage to the red blood cells?
CO is produced in the body, both in nerves (probable neurotransmitter function) and from red blood cell breakdown, as well as sources from you cigarettes/dodgy heater/car exhaust, so any testing would have to have a threshhold levels.
Half life in poisoned patients is about 74 minutes, according to a 2000 article in the excellently named publication 'Chest', but depends on pressure of oxygen.
Don't know about RBC damage.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
So is it really any different to using an altitude tent? I don't really know how they work, but aren't they just varying what you inhale.Mad_Malx wrote:
The carbon monoxide effect on EPO is real (CO definitely does induce EPO in rats & mice), but CO used to improve performance? Yes, I agree. Would need to titrate levels and obviously ensure its all cleared long before the race to allow all the new red cells work properly. There are carbon monoxide-releasing compounds used experimentally (and they also dilate the pulmonary blood vessels, which will also increase oxygenation). Health risks of high CO are fairly well known....
A few days of CO a few weeks before competition would boost endogenous EPO levels and hence haematocrit but would impair the ability to train hard (like high altitude training, which is why the preferred model is I believe 'live high, train low'). Induced EPO wouldn't should show as recombinant (ie injected) EPO because it would be your own, but biopassport levels would move if it was actually doing something.
While I think CO and xenon might not be to my tastes, they aren't exactly novel substances and I'm struggling a little to see how their use is any worse than the use of those tents.
Health effects? Difficult to kill yourself with an altitude tent, surprisingly easy to cause serious harm with CO, no idea about Xenon and it's other physiological effects beyond modifying oxygen transport...
Personally I think defining illegal methods should focus first on those that do most harm, followed by efficacy. Blood bags are worse in my opinion than EPO, due to the inherent dangers ( infection, embolism, storage, wrong persons blood). Once people are educated about EPO (ref late 80s/early 90s) they shouldn't kill themselves.0 -
AFAIR permanently (well as near as damnit) binds to heam molecules, therefore rendering RBC useless. Lifespan of RBC circa 60 days, although it's possible once CO 'poisoned' the immune system might recognise it as "damaged" and destroy more quickly?No tA Doctor wrote:Mad_Malx wrote:I agree xenon is doing essentially the same thing as a hypoxic tent. Xenon will be cleared very rapidly, so unless you sleep in a room pumped with it I very much doubt it will have any effect at all, and either way will be pretty much undetectable unless caught in the act.
As far as I understand it, they are all (hypoxic tent, CO and xenon) mimicking altitude by reducing the amount of oxygen reaching the body tissues (and hence inducing EPO ), so functionally they are having the same effect. The difference in my mind is that with xenon or CO you are actively taking something, but with the hypoxic tent or altitude training you are depriving yourself of something - rather a small difference I agree. CO is on the worst end of the spectrum and would most likely be taken as a CO-releasing compound and a detection system could be made fairly easily I think.
How fast does CO clear? It's got a very high affinity for haemoglobin (far higher than O2). And does it do any lasting damage to the red blood cells?
Edit. Apparently that's all shite and you should read article cited above by Mad_Malx...0 -
powerbookboy wrote:Edit. Apparently that's all shite and you should read article cited above by Mad_Malx...
Life's too short to be reading articles, I just needed an executive summary ;-)
Cheers Malx.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
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Wasn't this the thing that the Scottish skier (Alan Baxter?) fell foul of? Something like Vicks in the UK was fine, but he went to an American chemist and bought Vicks and the American version contained a banned substance causing him to fail his test.RichN95 wrote:I employ what I call The Boots Test.
Basically can I buy this product (or equivalent) off the shelf in Boots (or Tesco, H&B etc)? If the answer is yes then it's fair game as a performance enhancer (WADA rules allowing). If you have to get from the pharmacist counter - even without prescription - then proper medical use only.
And you can't buy Xenon in Boots.http://www.georgesfoundation.org
http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/0 -
When such moral questions arise, I often turn to Gordon the big engine for guidance. I feel his words to Henry are apt here "It isn't wrong, but you just don't do it".0
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I did say "WADA rules allowing". There are things you can buy off the shelf that have banned substances in - obviously you can't use them.mroli wrote:
Wasn't this the thing that the Scottish skier (Alan Baxter?) fell foul of? Something like Vicks in the UK was fine, but he went to an American chemist and bought Vicks and the American version contained a banned substance causing him to fail his test.RichN95 wrote:I employ what I call The Boots Test.
Basically can I buy this product (or equivalent) off the shelf in Boots (or Tesco, H&B etc)? If the answer is yes then it's fair game as a performance enhancer (WADA rules allowing). If you have to get from the pharmacist counter - even without prescription - then proper medical use only.
And you can't buy Xenon in Boots.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Slightly tangential but I recently wnet on an assessment day where we had a talk from a top sports lawyer (they said they were one of, if not the most experienced advocate in CAS cases).
During their talk they slated the WADA code saying that most lawyers couldn't possibly understand it, let alone athletes or teams. It's an interesting perspective in terms of determining what is legal and what is not. As a comparison he said he'd worked on an anti-doping charter totalling a modest but practical 12 pages...0 -
Michael Barry seems to have spat in the soup ahead of his autobiography release:
"I used tramadol at Sky. I never saw it used in training, only in races... where I saw some riders used it frequently."
Tramadol was "as performance-enhancing as any banned drug I had taken"
"some riders used tramadol every time they raced"
"It allows you to push beyond your natural pain limit"
Tomorrow's Times back page:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmQhwM1CMAIPlG3.jpg0 -
They've made no secret of using it to kill pain from injuries - Barry has a book to sell so a bit of exaggeration is to be expected.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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DeVlaeminck wrote:They've made no secret of using it to kill pain from injuries - Barry has a book to sell so a bit of exaggeration is to be expected.
Whittle's article is a bit vague - the quotes appear to be from the book. He says some riders use it every race.
The first post in this thread outlines the monitoring of tramadol and its potential to be a banned substance shortly.0 -
argyllflyer wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:They've made no secret of using it to kill pain from injuries - Barry has a book to sell so a bit of exaggeration is to be expected.
Whittle's article is a bit vague - the quotes appear to be from the book. He says some riders use it every race.
The first post in this thread outlines the monitoring of tramadol and its potential to be a banned substance shortly.
I've got the article in front of me. I cannot see any quote that 'some riders use it in every race'0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:argyllflyer wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:They've made no secret of using it to kill pain from injuries - Barry has a book to sell so a bit of exaggeration is to be expected.
Whittle's article is a bit vague - the quotes appear to be from the book. He says some riders use it every race.
The first post in this thread outlines the monitoring of tramadol and its potential to be a banned substance shortly.
I've got the article in front of me. I cannot see any quote that 'some riders use it in every race'
end of the 4th paragraph, at least on the version I linked.0 -
My mistake - I missed it in the online version I was reading direct via my online sub - but can see it in the print copy.
When was Barry's last race for Sky? Late Summer 2012?0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:My mistake - I missed it in the online version I was reading direct via my online sub - but can see it in the print copy.
When was Barry's last race for Sky? Late Summer 2012?
Fittingly for him, the two Canadian races in Sept 2012.0 -
I dint think this reflects well on Sky at all. From a zero tolerance approach to drugs.... To tramadol?!0
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Rick Chasey wrote:Oh grow up you lot.
If it's not on the WADA list it's not doping.
I wouldn't argue, but at the same time the WADA code is not watertight as there are substances that should be banned but have not yet been. Tramadol is being monitored by WADA in 2014 - "if blood doping is a 10 then it is a 2" Prentice Steffen of Garmin Sharp.
Sky themselves want it moved into being a substance that requires a TUE...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sk ... in-peloton
The MPCC want it better controlled:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mpcc-do ... ompetition
"WADA has confirmed that a ‘significant’ number of tests have shown traces of the drug".
This is a drug that *is* being misused in cycling and going by Barry's quotes, it *was* misused by Sky by 'some' riders in 'every' race, bearing in mind he left 18 months ago therefore anything he states relates to then and who knows, perhaps even related to their previous cycling doc as that would fit with Barry's time there...
As Jeremy Whittle has said on Twitter this morning:
"Lot of talk about Tramadol being used 'in the appropriate circumstances,' but if you're that injured, you shouldnt be racing surely...?"0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Oh grow up you lot.
If it's not on the WADA list it's not doping.
Don't disagree at all Rick. It wouldn't be cycling without the usual Chicken Little over-reaction though..,0 -
Worth pointing out that Geraint Thomas was widely quoted and cited as riding the Tour post his st 1 crash with only ibuprofen and extra physio to help him through certainly the stages immediately following st 1 when he was at his worst.
That doesn't shout of a team handing out Tramadol like smarties0 -
What nonsense. All that money time and investment that Sky have put in riders when all they needed to do was take a few pain killers ,,,utter nonsense. Book to sell, end of.0
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Oh well I hope that goes on the list pretty sharpish and some teams come clean properly about its extensive use.
Definitely against using this sort of thing.
Will be keeping an eye on the developments.
Looks like Lotto dr has a point:
viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12964475Contador is the Greatest0 -
I recently broke my collarbone and was prescribed Co-Codamol and Co-Drymadol as a pain killer (Which was very much needed)
I have been told some low level Racers take painkillers before a ride. Although I am not a Healthcare professional I doubt it would have much benefit as it may reduce pain but it does tend to make you a bit fuzzy headed. So your reaction times may be impacted.0 -
Makes you wonder if Wiggins was on it at the Giro, he was carrying an injury and perhaps it would explain his bizarrely bad bike handling then. All pure speculation of course ![Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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DeVlaeminck wrote:Makes you wonder if Wiggins was on it at the Giro, he was carrying an injury and perhaps it would explain his bizarrely bad bike handling then. All pure speculation of course !
.....well saved......0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:Makes you wonder if Wiggins was on it at the Giro, he was carrying an injury and perhaps it would explain his bizarrely bad bike handling then. All pure speculation of course !
The stage where he crashed and injured his knee was the same one where he crept down on the descent after he got back up. So if you can work out how he crashed, got a tramadol and then within secs of getting back on the bike was showing crap descending as a result of the tramadol...wow, that really is fast-acting stuff...0
