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If it's not illegal, is it still cheating/doping?>>XENON BAN

tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 15,911
edited September 2014 in Pro race
XENON

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/xenon-g ... arp-doctor

Xenon gas, the latest drug to hit the headlines after allegations that Russian athletes used the substance at the Olympic Games in Sochi, should be added to WADA’s banned list, says one leading WorldTour doctor.

The gas, which stimulates the production of EPO, and increases heart and lung capacity, is not on the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) banned list and although the agency has recently stated that it will discuss the matter during a post-Olympic meeting, one leading WorldTour physician believes that it constitutes doping and should be banned


TRAMADOL

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tramado ... ng-peloton

It is not on the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) list of banned substances but tramadol, a pain-killing opioid, has once again made it onto the agency’s Monitored List for 2014. It’s been there since 2012, and with riders, team doctors and the MPCC all stating their fears of the substance’s abuse in the peloton, WADA has also confirmed that a ‘significant’ number of tests have shown traces of the drug.
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  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    WADA style cheating/doping no. But it might well be well beyond the spirit of the law and thus make a mockery of your clean cycling ethics.

    I like Brailsford's 'Mrs Dombrowski test'. If you're taking risks with Mrs D's boy (above and beyond sending him hurtling down a mountain with 200 thrill seekers) you've crossed the line. By definition this would exclude any novel substances or methods which had not been shown to be safe.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,276
    I employ what I call The Boots Test.

    Basically can I buy this product (or equivalent) off the shelf in Boots (or Tesco, H&B etc)? If the answer is yes then it's fair game as a performance enhancer (WADA rules allowing). If you have to get from the pharmacist counter - even without prescription - then proper medical use only.

    And you can't buy Xenon in Boots.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,772
    If its not outlawed by the sport it's not cheating/doping, simple.
    It's only a game after all and there are already arcane rules you play within. Pre 1966 (or whenever) the were no doping rules so no cheating.
  • You lot are remembering after 6 months it's perfectly legal, right?

    edit: what Rich said seems to be a sensible concept ...
  • RichN95 wrote:
    I employ what I call The Boots Test.

    Basically can I buy this product (or equivalent) off the shelf in Boots (or Tesco, H&B etc)? If the answer is yes then it's fair game as a performance enhancer (WADA rules allowing). If you have to get from the pharmacist counter - even without prescription - then proper medical use only.

    And you can't buy Xenon in Boots.

    You can from Halford's though. Probably have to take it out of the bulb though, rather than shoving the whole thing up your nose...
  • Does anyone know how xenon is supposed to work? It might just be lowering the partial pressure of oxygen in the air they're breathing, so essentially just a similar trick to the altitude tents you hear about. Could presumably use helium, which would enliven post-race interviews no end.

    As for doping, if it isn't on the list then I'm not hugely concerned - I rather enjoy watching the attempt to find a new loophole to abuse, really.
  • mrolimroli Posts: 3,622
    Interesting about the Brailsford Dombrowski test. It is a tale that he recounts that he and Clancy once thought about breaking Clancy's shoulders and resetting them in a more aero position.....! He says that fortunately they soon came to their senses.... Illegal. Not doping. Mental!
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    mroli wrote:
    Interesting about the Brailsford Dombrowski test. It is a tale that he recounts that he and Clancy once thought about breaking Clancy's shoulders and resetting them in a more aero position.....! He says that fortunately they soon came to their senses.... Illegal. Not doping. Mental!

    lol
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,276
    In hockey when our club doesn't know if something we want to do is within the rules or not, we just ask the authorities. Then we know.
    Teams should do the same. If WADA tells them it's not against the rules, there's not a lot anyone can criticise them for.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,104
    I thought WADA had some catch all statement about performance enhancement designed to ban any future drugs and designer peds it doesn't even know about.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • Gives a whole new meaning to going full gas.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • FJSFJS Posts: 4,820
    RichN95 wrote:
    I employ what I call The Boots Test.

    Basically can I buy this product (or equivalent) off the shelf in Boots (or Tesco, H&B etc)? If the answer is yes then it's fair game as a performance enhancer (WADA rules allowing). If you have to get from the pharmacist counter - even without prescription - then proper medical use only.

    And you can't buy Xenon in Boots.
    What if the Russian Boots stocks it, but your local one doesnt?

    Even though it may go against our gut feelings sometimes, the only definition of doping i can think of is based on what is banned
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,276
    I thought WADA had some catch all statement about performance enhancement designed to ban any future drugs and designer peds it doesn't even know about.
    This below, which isn't exactly clear, hence grey areas like xenon and carbon monoxide:

    quxl.png
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,108
    Does anyone know how xenon is supposed to work? It might just be lowering the partial pressure of oxygen in the air they're breathing, so essentially just a similar trick to the altitude tents you hear about. Could presumably use helium, which would enliven post-race interviews no end.

    This would be my guess. Low dosing with carbon monoxide induces EPO by causing hypoxia, so a few ciggies might help too.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,104
    RichN95 wrote:
    I thought WADA had some catch all statement about performance enhancement designed to ban any future drugs and designer peds it doesn't even know about.
    This below, which isn't exactly clear, hence grey areas like xenon and carbon monoxide:

    quxl.png

    Cheers, that is quite fluffy, isn't it?
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • MacaloonMacaloon Posts: 5,545
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    This would be my guess. Low dosing with carbon monoxide induces EPO by causing hypoxia, so a few ciggies might help too.

    Any known side-effects? I'm assuming this is 'natural' EPO and so would not trigger a positive. But if the effect is meaningful enough to be worth the health risk, why wouldn't it cause haematocrit spike on the passport? TIA.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,647 Lives Here
    Macaloon wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    This would be my guess. Low dosing with carbon monoxide induces EPO by causing hypoxia, so a few ciggies might help too.

    Any known side-effects? I'm assuming this is 'natural' EPO and so would not trigger a positive. But if the effect is meaningful enough to be worth the health risk, why wouldn't it cause haematocrit spike on the passport? TIA.


    Sounds like a load of bull a rider has made up to catch out his rivals tbh, sucking on carbon monoxide.
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Gives a whole new meaning to going full gas.

    :lol:

    Whenever I hear full gas I think of Contador referring to his team mates when he blew the Vuelta apart.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighterfrenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I would veer more towards the moral side but cant fault a team if it isnt prohibited...best to stay on the safe side though.

    If you cant win a race without xenon you shouldn't be a pro racer.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • MechanismMechanism Posts: 895
    I wonder how dodgy it would look on a bio passport.
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,108
    Macaloon wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    This would be my guess. Low dosing with carbon monoxide induces EPO by causing hypoxia, so a few ciggies might help too.

    Any known side-effects? I'm assuming this is 'natural' EPO and so would not trigger a positive. But if the effect is meaningful enough to be worth the health risk, why wouldn't it cause haematocrit spike on the passport? TIA.

    Sounds like a load of bull a rider has made up to catch out his rivals tbh, sucking on carbon monoxide.

    The carbon monoxide effect on EPO is real (CO definately does induce EPO in rats & mice), but CO used to improve performance? Yes, I agree. Would need to titrate levels and obviously ensure its all cleared long before the race to allow all the new red cells work properly. There are carbon monoxide-releasing compounds used experimentally (and they also dilate the pulmonary blood vessels, which will also increase oxygenation). Health risks of high CO are fairly well known....

    A few days of CO a few weeks before competition would boost endogenous EPO levels and hence haematocrit but would impair the ability to train hard (like high altitude training, which is why the preferred model is I believe 'live high, train low'). Induced EPO wouldn't should show as recombinant (ie injected) EPO because it would be your own, but biopassport levels would move if it was actually doing something.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,276
    Mad_Malx wrote:

    The carbon monoxide effect on EPO is real (CO definitely does induce EPO in rats & mice), but CO used to improve performance? Yes, I agree. Would need to titrate levels and obviously ensure its all cleared long before the race to allow all the new red cells work properly. There are carbon monoxide-releasing compounds used experimentally (and they also dilate the pulmonary blood vessels, which will also increase oxygenation). Health risks of high CO are fairly well known....

    A few days of CO a few weeks before competition would boost endogenous EPO levels and hence haematocrit but would impair the ability to train hard (like high altitude training, which is why the preferred model is I believe 'live high, train low'). Induced EPO wouldn't should show as recombinant (ie injected) EPO because it would be your own, but biopassport levels would move if it was actually doing something.
    So is it really any different to using an altitude tent? I don't really know how they work, but aren't they just varying what you inhale.
    While I think CO and xenon might not be to my tastes, they aren't exactly novel substances and I'm struggling a little to see how their use is any worse than the use of those tents.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,108
    I agree xenon is doing essentially the same thing as a hypoxic tent. Xenon will be cleared very rapidly, so unless you sleep in a room pumped with it I very much doubt it will have any effect at all, and either way will be pretty much undetectable unless caught in the act.

    As far as I understand it, they are all (hypoxic tent, CO and xenon) mimicking altitude by reducing the amount of oxygen reaching the body tissues (and hence inducing EPO ), so functionally they are having the same effect. The difference in my mind is that with xenon or CO you are actively taking something, but with the hypoxic tent or altitude training you are depriving yourself of something - rather a small difference I agree. CO is on the worst end of the spectrum and would most likely be taken as a CO-releasing compound and a detection system could be made fairly easily I think.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,647 Lives Here
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Macaloon wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    This would be my guess. Low dosing with carbon monoxide induces EPO by causing hypoxia, so a few ciggies might help too.

    Any known side-effects? I'm assuming this is 'natural' EPO and so would not trigger a positive. But if the effect is meaningful enough to be worth the health risk, why wouldn't it cause haematocrit spike on the passport? TIA.

    Sounds like a load of bull a rider has made up to catch out his rivals tbh, sucking on carbon monoxide.

    The carbon monoxide effect on EPO is real (CO definitely does induce EPO in rats & mice), but CO used to improve performance? Yes, I agree. Would need to titrate levels and obviously ensure its all cleared long before the race to allow all the new red cells work properly. There are carbon monoxide-releasing compounds used experimentally (and they also dilate the pulmonary blood vessels, which will also increase oxygenation). Health risks of high CO are fairly well known....

    A few days of CO a few weeks before competition would boost endogenous EPO levels and hence haematocrit but would impair the ability to train hard (like high altitude training, which is why the preferred model is I believe 'live high, train low'). Induced EPO wouldn't should show as recombinant (ie injected) EPO because it would be your own, but biopassport levels would move if it was actually doing something.

    So breathing in all those bus fumes on my commute are improving my performance? Result.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,276
    So breathing in all those bus fumes on my commute are improving my performance? Result.
    Pah! I used to smoke 30 a day. I was the Riccardo Ricco of CO doping.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,108
    Think you missed this bit..
    ... ensure its all cleared long before the race to allow all the new red cells work properly.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,104
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    I agree xenon is doing essentially the same thing as a hypoxic tent. Xenon will be cleared very rapidly, so unless you sleep in a room pumped with it I very much doubt it will have any effect at all, and either way will be pretty much undetectable unless caught in the act.

    As far as I understand it, they are all (hypoxic tent, CO and xenon) mimicking altitude by reducing the amount of oxygen reaching the body tissues (and hence inducing EPO ), so functionally they are having the same effect. The difference in my mind is that with xenon or CO you are actively taking something, but with the hypoxic tent or altitude training you are depriving yourself of something - rather a small difference I agree. CO is on the worst end of the spectrum and would most likely be taken as a CO-releasing compound and a detection system could be made fairly easily I think.

    How fast does CO clear? It's got a very high affinity for haemoglobin (far higher than O2). And does it do any lasting damage to the red blood cells?
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 10,104
    RichN95 wrote:
    So breathing in all those bus fumes on my commute are improving my performance? Result.
    Pah! I used to smoke 30 a day. I was the Riccardo Ricco of CO doping.

    Before any of the trolls post it...

    gold-medallist-Bradley-Wiggins-1261353.png
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 52,647 Lives Here
    Anyway, in answer to the OP, of course it's not cheating or doping.

    They're both pretty arbitrary ideas when you get into the nitty gritty.

    I mean, I'm pretty sure eating carbohydrates and protein in certain ways also helps improve performance, but that's not banned.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 24,276
    Ironically, a few years back some anti-doping campaigners, most notably Greg LeMond, were advocates of using a doping test which involved inhaling carbon monoxide.

    So that's mixed messages.
    Twitter: @RichN95
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