Training for Alpe D'HuZes

meanredspider

Doing Alpe D'HuZes in June. This is (up to) 6 times up Alpe D'Huez in one day. My target is the full 6 (go big or go home). This is a Dutch event for cancer charities.

I have a couple of extra challenges:
1. Firstly, when I signed up for this event in January I weighed 95kg (I'm 6') which obviously isn't ideal for climbing over 6km/20,000ft in a day. Working hard on losing weight and I'm now 90kg. I'm aiming at 85kg. I'm 49 years old too.
2. I live/work in Amsterdam - not known internationally for its mountains. I have been down to Limburg for some training and my family home is just north of Inverness - so I do have some hill training opportunities but not that much.

My plan to date is to make good use of my Tacx Fortius trainer and plenty of Alp VR videos. The limitation of the Tacx is that it can't replicate slow steep climbs very well (motor brake isn't great at low RPM). On the day I expect to go slow and steady with a compact up front (maybe even on a 33 ring) and a 30 cassette at the rear. On the basis that I should train for what I'm doing, that's what I've been looking to do on the Tacx.

I'm sourcing a Stages power meter to help me train but also pace myself on the day.

The fitness is coming on - RHR is down to 51bpm and I've taken 6 minutes off my best time up the Alpe on the Tacx on the occasions where I don't pace myself. Speed is pretty irrelevant though and this is going to be all about stamina. I've done 4-hour climbing stints on the Tacx and some long hard rides in the relentless wind of N Holland. In the short term, though, I'm focusing on weight reduction.

Any thoughts or guidance on what else I might do? Or do differently?

term1te

Take it really easy, its only a "big hill" if you are trying for a good time. I've cycled it a few times, I've gone for a good time and nearly killed myself, 55mins to the tourist office, just under the hour to the real top. I rode it with my son who was 14 and the time and we took about an hour 45 to the tourist office and I still felt fresh. I might not have felt so fresh after another 5 climbs though. Enjoy the day, take in the view, accept the adulation on Dutch corner, eat and drink well, proper food energy gels and the like don't sit well with 8 hours plus in the saddle.

If anything, I'd guess it will be your arms that will give you the most complaint with 6 descents hanging on the brakes.

chrisw12

I think you're on the right track. I don't believe you need hills to train for hills, as long you've got a good turbo where you can replicate the torque and cadence needed. Getting a power meter that you can use on the turbo is a great idea ime.

bahzob

There have been quite a few threads on this subject or very similar, I'd suggest doing a search.

That said, I've not done this challenge but have done some very similar ones. Here's my advice.

First priority should be to continue to lose weight. Even if you hit your target of 85kg you will still have a BMI of over 25 which makes you overweight and not ideal for this sort of challenge. Really you should be aiming for more like 80kg. For motivation try using some scales that measure fat% which will tell you how many kg of fat you have, chances are it will be around 20kg. Now imagine a 20kg bag full of lard and try carrying that about on the flat, let alone up a mountain. Every kg you can shave from this will make things easier.

As for the challenge itself it's mainly a test of fatigue, physical and mental. Threshold power or similar is not really that important. Being able to do a single ascent in 55 or 70 minutes won't make that much of a difference. Key thing will be to pace yourself and do all you can to avoid disasters.

To this end using a very low gear as you are planning is an excellent idea. Looking at your target:

6 ascents in 24 hours means you need to aim to do one trip in around 3 hours. (not sure if you will be allowed to ride in the dark, even if you can you can use the remaining 6 hours as contingency and/or to do another ascent and/or start celebrating early).

With this in mind I would be aiming to do each climb in around 100 minutes, leaving 20 minutes at the top to get breath, descend in around 30 minutes and take another 30 minutes before starting next trip.

This calculator is a handy tool and quite good at predicting the sort of power you need for climb. (Warning though ignore its calorie count which is just daft)
http://bikecalculator.com/index.html

Plug in your stats 85kg, bike 10kg, length 13.1km average grade 8.1% and you should see
185W will give a climb around 100 minutes.

185W for someone your size should be a fairly easy pace as you should find when you get your power meter.

So training should really be all about getting used to doing repeated long efforts of around 100minutes at 185W. Key thing is no stopping. Living in Holland should be good for this. Riding on the flat at 185W for 100 minutes is the same as riding up a mountain in terms of effort. So you can train outdoors as well if you like.

Only risk with this is if you can't repeat your training on the Alpe and the most frequent cause for this is poor gearing. If you are training at a cadence of 80rpm then you need to be climbing at 80rpm. So yes definitely take all the gears you can. Ideally find a real hill around 10% gradient and check you can climb it at your preferred cadence.

If I was doing this event I would be planning to allocate some days when I tried doing 3-4 "climbs" by doing several blocks of 100 minute@185W effort with rests as for the event itself. 2-4 weeks before I would probably aim to do a full 18 hour simulation of 6 x 100. This helps check physical condition but also will be good mental training as well.

Other stuff
- In the UK we have Audax rides that include some longer distance events that go overnight. You will have similar in Holland and good preparation would be to do an event that takes 18-24 hours to complete. Doing this in company with some support along the way will make it a bit more fun.
- If not already done so get a bike fit. One risk with this sort of event is that the intense riding shows up issues in your setup that turn into showstoppers. I have ridden and marshalled events like this and in every one there are always riders who have to quit because of this.
- For same reason give bike a thorough service a week or so before and ride it after (before you leave).
- Beware of over-eating. While the climbs are tough you will also be spending a lot of time recovering. Each climb will burn around 1200kcal but a fair portion of this will come from fat. You will probably need to be consuming an average around 300kcal per hour of carbs (+some protein) to keep fuelled. There's a risk to consuming way more than this as it will just put your digestive system under stress. All this being said people differ a lot, so I would check this during the trial rides I suggest above.

Hope this helps. Good luck

meanredspider

Thanks both. Any thoughts on whether I should be trying to replicate the PHYSICAL incline on the turbo (ie propping up the front)? Doing Limburg last weekend gave me some confidence that my legs are coming on but my lower back was a bit uncomfortable. I'm thinking that everything I can do to simulate the real event has to be my benefit.

Not spent too much time yet thinking about nutrition on the day. I know that hydration is going to be critical too - I need to give myself a plan else I'll dehydrate - I'm crap at it.

Descents should be OK (except for the 5000 Dutchies I'll be sharing the hill with). I'm going to use my Volagi Liscio - comfortable and disc braked

meanredspider

Thanks for that reply bahzob.

Couple of clarifications -
1. I won't have 24 hours. I'm not sure when I have to stop but I can start at 5.30am (which I'll practice nearer the event). I'm assuming I have 14 hours or so to do 6 ascents and 5 descents. 100 minutes is what I was planning on for the ascents - on the turbo I can do this readily at my "ride all day, day in and day out" HR of sub 140bpm.
2. 80kg is a good goal but I'm not sure it's achievable - I have the build of a rugby player rather than a cyclist. I had a professional body composition done and, at 85kg I'll be in the high-mid teens of body fat.

I did a search on Alpe D'HuZes before posting but didn't find anything. Are there similar "climb all day" events (as opposed to Sportives etc). I did the Puffer a couple of years back but it's quite different.

I've been reading the thread about climbing and power. I'm keen to replicate the effect of climbing - wind is my friend in this respect. When I'm back in Scotland, I can do the hill simulation.

I had a bike fit with The Bike Whisperer a couple of years back - I've done some endurance events (Rat a Race a Road Trip last May) since with no injuries or serious issues.

mamba80

What about eating and drinking? you could easily burn 800 to 1000 cals on each ascent.
also, I would fit a 32 or even 34 cassette, with mtb mech, you may not need it but its there, 6 times up that climb is going to be very tough.

If it were me, I d be mixing in some shorter harder efforts as well, I ve done the Maratona in around 6.30 and that's about 4k climbing and 7 cols and I train for that with quite a lot of intensity, yours is a much harder challenge but there is no reason to be pottering around all the time.
Prop up front of bike and look at some core exercises for that lower back, but the biggest thing you can do is to get down towards that 80kg weight, 85ks with high/mid teens body fat? you can go lower!!!

oh and good luck!

meanredspider

I think a 33-30 set up(if that's the correct way of describing 33 up front and 30 cassette) is going to be OK. The bike runs Di2 - I might squeeze 32 on there but I'd rather not take any risks.

My Tacx reckons I've used 1000kcals on the full climb (slow and 98kg "weight") but I don't know (yet) how accurate the power is on the Fortius (the Stages power meter will help). I'll work out what nutrition I need. Fortunately my guts are bullet-proof. I also have no doubts about my mental toughness.

I wonder about the shorter harder efforts. I started by doing some of those but a mountain specialist suggested they may not be my best bet. They're easier and more convenient. To stretch myself, I'm using the higher "weight" on the Tacx and a gear or two higher than ideal.

chrisw12

Since I'm a similar weight to you and I've climbed the mt in question with power, here's my numbers, I took 90 mins and think my av. power was approx 210w (powertap) so Bahzob's figures are about right.

I was very unfit at the time from where I had been but didn't find it that hard a climb. I've found Ventoux, Hautaucam a lot harder for example. The thing about D'huez, it starts off steep which is great as you're fresh then gets 'easier'. You've also got the hairpins some of which are more or less flat, you can freewheel for a second or two, which can give a nice break.

Also imo disc brakes are a great idea for this event, I blew a rim on the descent. The hair pins and traffic put a lot of stress on the brakes, more so than any other climb.

On gearing, I'm a grinder and used a 39x28 bottom. At the time it was probably about right, I think you'll be fine with the 33x30. If it was simple to go 32 I'd do it but since as you've said it's not simple or cheap I'd take the slight risk.

Toks

meanredspider wrote:

I've done 4-hour climbing stints on the Tacx ...

Wow that's very impressive. I once did 5 x 20 mins on the turbo but its very rare I exceed an hour 10 mins in total these days. Good luck with you're even it sounds like you're gonna be find especially given all the advice your receiving.

meanredspider

Toks wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I've done 4-hour climbing stints on the Tacx ...

Wow that's very impressive. I once did 5 x 20 mins on the turbo but its very rare I exceed an hour 10 mins in total these days. Good luck with you're even it sounds like you're gonna be find especially given all the advice your receiving.

Bizarrely, the worst bit of stints like that is my "butt". I haven't really worked out how 4 hours on the turbo can feel far worse than 6 hours on the road (exactly the same Spesh Toupe saddle). A mate reckons it's partly to do with being much sweatier due to lack of airflow. I'm going to try an Adamo Typhoon saddle to see if I can get it a bit more comfortable.

FatTed

From Alex
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.nz/2011/0 ... rtals.html

if you use a 30/34 with a cadence of 80 thats a speed of11.4 kph and if you and the bike weigh 95Kg on a 10% slope you will need to produce 312 W, if you drop your cadence to 70 that will be 272 w
and if you lose 5 kg those figures are 296 and 258 respectively
for an 8% slope cadence of 80/70 and 90Kg it is 240/209 W

meanredspider

FatTed wrote:

From Alex
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.nz/2011/0 ... rtals.html

if you use a 30/34 with a cadence of 80 thats a speed of11.4 kph and if you and the bike weigh 95Kg on a 10% slope you will need to produce 312 W, if you drop your cadence to 70 that will be 272 w
and if you lose 5 kg those figures are 296 and 258 respectively
for an 8% slope cadence of 80/70 and 90Kg it is 240/209 W

Yes - I saw the chart linking through from the other thread about hills vs training.

I'm intrigued to know what my power figures are (fingers crossed my Stages turns up in the post today) - especially because my (calibrated) times and power on the Tacx Fortius up Ad'H are nothing like Alex's chart: I did a 1:11 but it reckoned I was producing 2.4W/kg. Now I'm not going to begin to argue that the Tacx is accurate on any single measure (power/speed) but I'd hope that its own internal algorithm would more closely reflect reality.

littledove44

Sorry to say this (again), but if you are worried about gears fit a 50/34 compact and an 11-34 on the rear. That's what my bike has and it works perfectly. I am a few years older but similar weight profile than you.

On long days I find myself resorting to it at the end when climbs exceed 6 or 7%. It's all down to fitness, but better to carry a gear and not use it, than spend the days wishing for one more. That way you can change the effort loading easier from cardio to power during the ride.

meanredspider

littledove44 wrote:

Sorry to say this (again), but if you are worried about gears fit a 50/34 compact and an 11-34 on the rear. That's what my bike has and it works perfectly. I am a few years older but similar weight profile than you.

On long days I find myself resorting to it at the end when climbs exceed 6 or 7%. It's all down to fitness, but better to carry a gear and not use it, than spend the days wishing for one more. That way you can change the effort loading easier from cardio to power during the ride.

You may have missed it but my bike runs 10-speed Ultegra Di2 so I won't get a 34 on the rear. Some people say they've managed to fit 32 on (some by reversing the b-screw) but, frankly, I'd rather not push my luck. Instead I plan to fit a 30 cassette and find a 33T chain ring. I'm confident that it will be plenty for me on the day - so not worried by gears. My strategy is reasonably simple: shed weight, train hard, pace myself, eat and drink well.

meanredspider

Stages turned up - in a constant power 5 minute test (about as benign a test as you can imagine but I'd literally just downed scrambled egg and smoked salmon) the Tacx averaged 194W and the Stages 195W - they also tracked pretty well unless I purposely favoured my left foot. I think it will be interesting to see how they track over time which might give me an indication of my leg balance drifts with fatigue.

bahzob

If you train on a turbo with the bike set at around a 8-10% angle by propping up front wheel should be fine.

Training on a turbo is actually harder than doing the "real thing", unless weather is very bad, so this should get you sorted.

Adamo may work (I have one and use for TTs) but not sure it's such a good bet for this sort of ride. It may force too much weight onto the arms. Definitely something to try in advance.

Hydration is straight forward, 2 bottles will be plenty, just set yourself a plan to drink regularly. Simplest is just take a few sips coming out of each hairpin where the road naturally flattens, just skip a few revs eat/drink then restart. This helps break up the ride as well and is something you can practice on the Tacx.

meanredspider

Yes I'll give that a try.

Did 163km around the Markermeer on Sunday - home leg south was into a 20 knot wind (I'm quickly learning why NL is the land of windmills :roll: ) but it was great training (relentless wind instead of a relentless slope) as I focused on maintaining constant power. Will probably do it again this weekend especially as I now know where the nice cafés are (typically 2km AFTER the one I stopped at... )

I'm only looking to use the Adamo saddle on the turbo - despite running exactly the same sized Toupe saddle on the turbo bike, it gets incredible uncomfortable on the perineum after an hour or two whereas it's great on the proper (outdoor) bike. Maybe just staying in exactly the same position on the turbo causes the problem.

PompeyPaul

Try to replicate the effort involved (as you cannot replicate the climbs in Holland) so a diferent way of looking at this would be to train for 1 hour Reps at a high intensity ftp - 10% with a 20 minute break inbetween, gradually build up the volume of reps?

meanredspider

PompeyPaul wrote:

Try to replicate the effort involved (as you cannot replicate the climbs in Holland) so a diferent way of looking at this would be to train for 1 hour Reps at a high intensity ftp - 10% with a 20 minute break inbetween, gradually build up the volume of reps?

I'm not sure about "high intensity" reps. I'm not worried about the speed that I climb the hill so I'm actually looking to keep the intensity as low as I can get away with on the day. I want to improve my endurance - hence looking to do more centuries in the Dutch wind.

davidof

I've done 4-hour climbing stints on the Tacx and some long hard rides in the relentless wind of N Holland. In the short term, though, I'm focusing on weight reduction.

I think 4 hours is too long to spend on a turbo and possibly counterproductive. You are going to sweat a great deal and loose a lot of minerals from your body. It is going to hurt your training.

You would be better doing a couple of 1 hour sessions (morning and afternoon) with reps in the level 3 - 4 range.

Oh and those long rides on the Dutch step, again with some fartlek mixed in.

PompeyPaul

But you do need to worry about the speed you climb the Alp in if you want to achieve 6 ascents? You in effect need to be able to do 6 Reps as hard as you can with a 20 minute break (descent).

Dont forgrt to eat while you train as this will be an important factor which needs training also?

meanredspider

PompeyPaul wrote:

But you do need to worry about the speed you climb the Alp in if you want to achieve 6 ascents? You in effect need to be able to do 6 Reps as hard as you can with a 20 minute break (descent).

Dont forgrt to eat while you train as this will be an important factor which needs training also?

But I probably have 2 hours per ascent plus the descent time. If I can't make it up the Alpe in 2 hours at a very steady pace, I'm in trouble already. In fact, if it takes me two hours, I'll be going so slowly I'll probably fall off.

Yes - very focused on eating and drinking. Practicing this on my long rides.

davidof wrote:

I think 4 hours is too long to spend on a turbo and possibly counterproductive. You are going to sweat a great deal and loose a lot of minerals from your body. It is going to hurt your training.

You would be better doing a couple of 1 hour sessions (morning and afternoon) with reps in the level 3 - 4 range.

Oh and those long rides on the Dutch step, again with some fartlek mixed in.

Why do you suggest fartlek. I was doing these but was warned off them by a mountain riding coach who said that, whilst it might feel like good training, it was irrelevant to the riding I'd be doing.

meanredspider

I just thought I'd close this thread. I did the ride last week and completed The Six. It was tough - simply because it's extreme
6500m ascent
160km
7500kcals
14 hours elapsed time
On the bike at 3.40am
Temperatures from 0C to 33C
94% humidity

So what did I learn about training? For starters, endurance is everything. I got nowhere near the Red - you simply couldn't sustain that. Losing weight made a huge amount of difference (I lost 10kg). Learning to eat when you're exhausted and hot and dehydrated makes the world of difference too. You really need to find foods you can eat when you really don't feel hungry.

Other lessons? Disc brakes are awesome on long alpine descents. Even with traffic and speed limits (meaning you're doing far more braking than you might), they were just fab. I had issues with my HyRd not compensating (fast enough) for pad wear but that seems to be a first gen issue
Dress well for early morning descents - it's bloody cold. Quite a few people were being treated for the effects of cold and one person even crashed because they couldn't feel their fingers.
Riding with a power meter and a plan is great. I knew I could sustain 200W and just rode to that - it really helped me go slow enough at the start.

Thanks for all your input. Full write up over on Commuting Chat