Fast twitch fibre recruitment

Max Bridges
Max Bridges Posts: 108
edited February 2014 in Training, fitness and health
I have heard often that more fast twitch fibres are recruited as power increases. But is recruitment of fast twitch fibres not more a function of force?

When you exert a high force you recruit fast twitch fibres but you may be producing zero or next to zero power?

Pedalling at high force low cadence recruits more fast twitch fibres for the same power at high cadence low force? Or does 200 watts at any cadence always recruit the same proportions of fast and slow twitch fibres?

Pedal for long enough at constant low power and exhaust your slow twitch fibres and more fast twitch get recruited, yet power has not changed?

Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Pedal at the cadences which most accurately reflect the type of riding or the type of events you are training for. Let the various fibres sort themselves out on their own...
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    I have heard often that more fast twitch fibres are recruited as power increases. But is recruitment of fast twitch fibres not more a function of force?
    Power as opposed to force? Where have you heard this?
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Imposter wrote:
    Pedal at the cadences which most accurately reflect the type of riding or the type of events you are training for. Let the various fibres sort themselves out on their own...


    I do, but not as much as when I exclusively rode fixed.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    I have heard often that more fast twitch fibres are recruited as power increases. But is recruitment of fast twitch fibres not more a function of force?
    Power as opposed to force? Where have you heard this?

    Dr Coggan, Ric Stern, recently from Alex Simmons.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    I have heard often that more fast twitch fibres are recruited as power increases. But is recruitment of fast twitch fibres not more a function of force?
    Power as opposed to force? Where have you heard this?

    Dr Coggan, Ric Stern, recently from Alex Simmons.
    :lol: ok, lets see it.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    I have heard often that more fast twitch fibres are recruited as power increases. But is recruitment of fast twitch fibres not more a function of force?
    Power as opposed to force? Where have you heard this?

    Dr Coggan, Ric Stern, recently from Alex Simmons.
    :lol: ok, lets see it.

    For starters.

    viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12957414&p=18753910#p18753910

    I suppose I could go back through years of forum discussions! I argued for a long time against the cadence is a red herring brigade along the lines of cadence and force, and high force recruiting more fast twitch fibres, but got shouted down and told power is what determines muscle fibre recruitment.

    When you increase power you tend to increase force anyway so I assume it is increased force which recruits more fast twitch fibres.

    That said the forces generated cycling are always low, so perhaps when cycling the only way to increase fast twitch muscle fibres is to increase power?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Are the answers not already plainly apparent from the numerous other threads on these topics? Personally, I couldn't give a stuff what type of muscle fibre is recruited, and when - I just want to go faster. I think you are focusing on the means rather than the end.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Imposter wrote:
    Are the answers not already plainly apparent from the numerous other threads on these topics? Personally, I couldn't give a stuff what type of muscle fibre is recruited, and when - I just want to go faster. I think you are focusing on the means rather than the end.

    If you aren't interested why post on the subject? Perhaps you might train better and go faster if you thought about why and how things work?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Are the answers not already plainly apparent from the numerous other threads on these topics? Personally, I couldn't give a stuff what type of muscle fibre is recruited, and when - I just want to go faster. I think you are focusing on the means rather than the end.

    If you aren't interested why post on the subject? Perhaps you might train better and go faster if you thought about why and how things work?

    I'm interested in performance and improvement, Trev - but I'm not particularly interested in the physiological science behind what type of muscle fibres are recruited and when, as it would make no difference to me or how I train. I would respectfully suggest to you that you are either on the wrong forum, or you are only interested in perpetuating tedious discussions with certain individuals with whom you obviously have long standing issues or disagreements.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Imposter wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Are the answers not already plainly apparent from the numerous other threads on these topics? Personally, I couldn't give a stuff what type of muscle fibre is recruited, and when - I just want to go faster. I think you are focusing on the means rather than the end.

    If you aren't interested why post on the subject? Perhaps you might train better and go faster if you thought about why and how things work?

    I'm interested in performance and improvement, Trev - but I'm not particularly interested in the physiological science behind what type of muscle fibres are recruited and when, as it would make no difference to me or how I train. I would respectfully suggest to you that you are either on the wrong forum, or you are only interested in perpetuating tedious discussions with certain individuals with whom you obviously have long standing issues or disagreements.

    Well I am interested. The discussions are interesting, it is tedious how some people follow my posts and want to have arguments with me. It is also tedious how a small minority of people, and you are obviously one of those people, try to bully me off cycling forums.

    I don't give sod what you think, I will post what I want when I want, if people like you don't like it tough.

    If you are not interested in the subjects I'm interested in why don't you ignore the threads and allow those who are interested to enjoy the discussion?
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    I have heard often that more fast twitch fibres are recruited as power increases. But is recruitment of fast twitch fibres not more a function of force?
    Power as opposed to force? Where have you heard this?

    Dr Coggan, Ric Stern, recently from Alex Simmons.
    :lol: ok, lets see it.

    For starters.

    viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12957414&p=18753910#p18753910

    I suppose I could go back through years of forum discussions! I argued for a long time against the cadence is a red herring brigade along the lines of cadence and force, and high force recruiting more fast twitch fibres, but got shouted down and told power is what determines muscle fibre recruitment.
    This is the one use of the term 'fibre' in that thread by any of those people:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    It might but I'm not really qualified to say, and I'm not sure in what way it would given that when fast twitch fibres are recruited to any great degree, they fatigue quickly (which isn't what happen during such long endurance efforts), and their recruitment is more a function of power than of cadence.
    I gave you a chance to bring them down Trev, and you blew it.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    When you increase power you tend to increase force anyway so I assume it is increased force which recruits more fast twitch fibres.

    That said the forces generated cycling are always low, so perhaps when cycling the only way to increase fast twitch muscle fibres is to increase power?
    Maybe you are confused about the mathematical relationship between power, force and cadence? Look it up. Your opening premise is based on a false distinction.

    It seems like somewhere buried in your posts is a perfectly reasonable question about the effect of cadence on muscle fibre recruitment. Maybe if you just asked that question without trying to follow your vendettas we could all learn something and we wouldn't have to listen to you whine about being bullied and 'shouted down'.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Never mind Tom, you seem to be obsessed with arguing with me to the point you make yourself look stupid. Once again, you prefer to get personal instead of discussing the subject.

    The question is simple, Is fast twitch recruitment a function of force or power?

    Frankly you and imposter are no more than trolls who deliberately smother reasonable discussion.

    Which do you think it is Tom? Do you agree it is power or force?


    Learn this Tom, and you Imposter, you will not hound me off this forum, you best try to get me banned.

    As for vendettas Tom, you consistently run one against me, you should re read my original post, you are the one trying to turn the thread into an argument, not me, I'm merely asking reasonable questions.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Never mind Tom, you seem to be obsessed with arguing with me to the point you make yourself look stupid. Once again, you prefer to get personal instead of discussing the subject.
    Please show what I said that was stupid. I would like to discuss the subject, but you framed it in a way that does not make any sense.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    The question is simple, Is fast twitch recruitment a function of force or power?
    The question doesn't make sense. Force and power are interdependent.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Frankly you and imposter are no more than trolls who deliberately smother reasonable discussion.
    I actually made a suggestion as to how the discussion could be improved.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Which do you think it is Tom? Do you agree it is power or force?
    The question doesn't make sense.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Learn this Tom, and you Imposter, you will not hound me off this forum, you best try to get me banned.
    edit: not worth a response.
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Never mind Tom, you seem to be obsessed with arguing with me to the point you make yourself look stupid. Once again, you prefer to get personal instead of discussing the subject.
    Please show what I said that was stupid. I would like to discuss the subject, but you framed it in a way that does not make any sense.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    The question is simple, Is fast twitch recruitment a function of force or power?
    The question doesn't make sense. Force and power are interdependent.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Frankly you and imposter are no more than trolls who deliberately smother reasonable discussion.
    I actually made a suggestion as to how the discussion could be improved.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Which do you think it is Tom? Do you agree it is power or force?
    The question doesn't make sense.
    Max Bridges wrote:
    Learn this Tom, and you Imposter, you will not hound me off this forum, you best try to get me banned.
    edit: not worth a response.

    You can generate force but zero power. So it is possible to recruit fast twitch fibres at very low or even zero power. Think about it.
  • Tom Dean
    Tom Dean Posts: 1,723
    I am aware of that. I was working on the assumption we were talking in the context of actually pedalling the bike. I'm not trying to shut down the discussion though - do you want to talk about whether turning the pedals is a good idea during training?
  • Max Bridges
    Max Bridges Posts: 108
    Tom Dean wrote:
    I am aware of that. I was working on the assumption we were talking in the context of actually pedalling the bike. I'm not trying to shut down the discussion though - do you want to talk about whether turning the pedals is a good idea during training?


    There is another way to recruit fast twitch fibres. You can fatigue the slow twitch fibres by maintaining a lower power for a long time. The fast twitch fibres will be recruited even though the power and forces are relatively low.
  • twinpop
    twinpop Posts: 31
    Try some squatting down the gym to build up fast twitch muscles ...build up the weight over winter and grow.
    I`m not sure it will make you faster and certainly not up hills. Chics will dig the quads though!!

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