Are these Tubs any good - complete newbie to tubs!

Irohug5

Just bought my first set of tubular wheels. Literally no idea where to start. Can anyone tell me if these are any good as seem like a decent deal. http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/TBVICECXII ... bular-tyre

Have always had GP4000s clinchers in the past but they seem to be a lot more expensive in tubs?

Also -forgive the naivety but what else do I need to buy (the wheelset comes with carbon pads should I use these or get something like swisstop that come highly recommended on here?) do I need to put sealant in from the start or just if I puncture? and glue/tape/something else I'm missing????

Thanks.

Grill

Yes, buy them.

You can run them with sealant, but you have to be a bit careful with latex tubes as they can stick together if left deflated for a while.

And glue, always glue.

sungod

glue - vittoria mastik one

sealant - save it until you have a minor puncture, then use a small amount of tufo extreme - quarter of a bottle is enough

carry a spare preglued tub in case of larger punctures

tubby rites of passage...
- first gluing
- first one-the-road tyre change
- first open heart surgery on tyre to repair puncture

Irohug5

thanks. Its all a bit daunting. If I'm honest and at the risk of great embarrassment I wasn't entirely sure whether I needed to buy inner tubes or not cue laughter! But I can change a clincher in no time!! Just wanted to try some carbon wheels and don't really see the point of getting carbon if I stick with clinchers.

Is it worth paying the extra tenner a tyre for the Corsa III (looks the same apart from ISOgrip to me) Are the Conti competition tubs any good?

gazman428

I puntured a corsa 111 after 8 miles and it was only fit for the bin. The pressure needs to checked before every ride as they leak like mad.
But they do ride nice. I now use conti gator skins

sungod

lightweight latex-tubed tubs need re-inflating every day, the good ones give a lovely ride but have less puncture protection, it's the price you pay for the low rolling resistance

i use veloflex carbons, they've not much protection, but if you avoid riding near the edge of the road and keep an eye open for glass etc. it greatly reduces the chances of a puncture, if they do flat the traditional construction makes them simple to repair

the conti comps are fine, a bit heavier but more protection, some people find them a bugger to mount, the butyl tubes mean they hold pressure for days

if you go for vittoria, i'd get isogrip every time, too many people report poor grip in the wet with the previous 3d sio2 compound

bernithebiker

sungod wrote:

if you go for vittoria, i'd get isogrip every time, too many people report poor grip in the wet with the previous 3d sio2 compound

+1 absolutely.

I came off again last Sunday on a pre-Isogrip Vittoria. It was wet (again) and had negotiated the roundabout nicely, but on the exit I put some power down, and according to riders behind, the rear stepped right out, and for a few seconds I was like a speedway rider, then I lowsided and went down (at about 30km/h). No big injuries/damage, just a big graze on my hip, but that Vittorias coming off and going in the bin (was quite worn anyway), and I'll put on either a new Isogrip one, or a Mavic Powerlink.

Grill

Your worn tub had limited grip on a wet corner? How is this surprising?

FWIW I've ridden the Corsa EVO CX II in rainy TT's (including a 100 with many roundabouts) and descended Puig Major in the wet and haven't had any issue with grip.

cycleclinic

I am using Pave's at present they seen fairly puncture resistant. Grip on these is very good weather pre iso grip or the later ones and they are extremely comfortable. Use the corsa but they are best suited for racing or TT's. I'll be trying conti competition tubs soon.

You'll like them and +1 for vittoria mastik one.

crikey

You are all aware that tubs have a worse rolling resistance than clinchers, right?

And that to help tubs approach the same rolling resistance of a good clincher, you have to glue them the same way that the track boys do?

Which makes them a lot harder to get off?

Anyway, as you were.... :roll:

sungod

Grill wrote:

Your worn tub had limited grip on a wet corner? How is this surprising?

FWIW I've ridden the Corsa EVO CX II in rainy TT's (including a 100 with many roundabouts) and descended Puig Major in the wet and haven't had any issue with grip.

your experience doesn't invalidate that of those who decked it on the pre-isogrip compound tyres, nor, of course, their's yours

maybe it was a batch issue, but there are quite a few reports from people found them bad in the wet

however, if the 3d compound was as good as isogrip, vittoria wouldn't have dropped it

sungod

crikey wrote:

You are all aware that tubs have a worse rolling resistance than clinchers, right?

And that to help tubs approach the same rolling resistance of a good clincher, you have to glue them the same way that the track boys do?

Which makes them a lot harder to get off?

Anyway, as you were.... :roll:

bit of advice, don't let the sun shine on your head, it makes you an easy target...

i) there are some very light and stripped down clinchers with lower crr than tubs, which is why tony martin rode clinchers on the flat in tt, overall, the lightest tyre+wheel combinations are tubs, which makes a lot more difference once you're climbing, also, if you've ever compared the effects of flatting on a tub at speed vs. clincher, you'll know why people prefer tubs

ii) your comments on gluing are nonsense

iii) in the words of jake: you want working on boy

Grill

Isogrip may be better, but I've never had an issue with their old compound. New tech replaces old- nothing unusual about that.

crikey

bit of advice, don't let the sun shine on your head, it makes you an easy target...

i) there are some very light and stripped down clinchers with lower crr than tubs, which is why tony martin rode clinchers on the flat in tt, overall, the lightest tyre+wheel combinations are tubs, which makes a lot more difference once you're climbing, also, if you've ever compared the effects of flatting on a tub at speed vs. clincher, you'll know why people prefer tubs

ii) your comments on gluing are nonsense

iii) in the words of jake: you want working on boy

You want to qualify any of your above statements, or are you going to attempt to dismiss me by being insulting?

The tests that have been done suggest that clinchers have better rolling resistance than tubs.
One of the reasons for this is the way tubs are glued.
Rolling resistance is related to carcass deformation, which is greater if you don't stick your tubs on as well as you can.

So, boy... Would you like to tell us some more?

crikey

More info:

As Brandt explains, the glue line in tubulars glued with road glue gives a flexible contact between the tire casing and the rim. This causes rolling resistance losses. Track glue dries stiff and prevents these losses. Track glue requires a perfectly clean rim. Once glued, the tire cannot be removed for repair. If removed, the rim will have to be throughly cleaned to base metal before mounting another tubular. The data show that if one does this, one has a tire with rolling resistance that is equivalent to a Premium Clincher.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html

Linked in this page: http://velonews.competitor.com/2007/06/ ... ance_12493

Tubs have some advantages, mainly their run-flat ability, but this is not actually that important for any amateur cyclist. Clinchers have a lower rolling resistance, which is important for any cyclist... Plus they are a whole lot easier to manage day to day.

Grill

As a TTer I see no use for clinchers. In fact I can't really think of any that do use clinchers (Tony Martin included).

Saving a few hundred grams on a deep section wheelset as well as not having to worry about blowing the tube or tyre on big descents is really nice. But regardless of all these things, this isn't a tubular vs. clincher thread. There are plenty of those for you to weigh in on.

cycleclinic

Well that is data not specific to a tyre so not usefull. There are Crr test of clinchers and tubs there are some clinchers that do better than some tubs but there are some tubs that do better than some clinchers. I am talking about road tyres as well. tour have done tests and there other other folk who have done tests. there are some results on slow twitch I think.

It is always best not to quote the first piece of data you see that fits with the views you hold, that's what politicans do. Read around there is more to crr than first meets the eye and not all "premium" tyres are equal. The main problem with tubs is not hassle but cost.

Tubs are easy to manage day to day. I manage quite well. I even have tubs on my MTB race bike. Really they are no hassle. When the nights get shorter the winter trainer with gatroskin hardshell tyres will be retired and I will be on tubs all week. I have the luxary of having tried many different tyres and rim width combo's and tubs beat them all even conti gator tubs feel better than most clinchers in terms of ride comfort and grip. That my preference.

But as above we don't need another clincher vs tubs thread. Everyone has there preference and it should not be rammed down anyone's throat.

crikey

Ah, pardon me gents for attempting to add balance to a very one sided thread. Y'all go ahead and carry on.

dennisn

bernithebiker wrote:

sungod wrote:

if you go for vittoria, i'd get isogrip every time, too many people report poor grip in the wet with the previous 3d sio2 compound

+1 absolutely.

I came off again last Sunday on a pre-Isogrip Vittoria. It was wet (again) and had negotiated the roundabout nicely, but on the exit I put some power down, and according to riders behind, the rear stepped right out, and for a few seconds I was like a speedway rider, then I lowsided and went down (at about 30km/h). No big injuries/damage, just a big graze on my hip, but that Vittorias coming off and going in the bin (was quite worn anyway), and I'll put on either a new Isogrip one, or a Mavic Powerlink.

It's all the tires fault? Of course it is. No matter that it was "wet(again)", that "...on the exit ....power down..", that the tire "...was quite worn anyway..", that maybe, just maybe, you went too hard for the conditions(no, couldn't be). Add to that the fact that you "...came off again..." and the conclusion I'm drawing is that you're a dangerous rider to be around. Oh, but I forgot. It was bad tires. :roll:

dennisn

crikey wrote:

bit of advice, don't let the sun shine on your head, it makes you an easy target...

i) there are some very light and stripped down clinchers with lower crr than tubs, which is why tony martin rode clinchers on the flat in tt, overall, the lightest tyre+wheel combinations are tubs, which makes a lot more difference once you're climbing, also, if you've ever compared the effects of flatting on a tub at speed vs. clincher, you'll know why people prefer tubs

ii) your comments on gluing are nonsense

iii) in the words of jake: you want working on boy

The tests that have been done suggest that clinchers have better rolling resistance than tubs.

Somehow the word "suggest" doesn't inspire me to become a true believer. In any case, anyone out there who believes that rolling resistance in higher end tires is going to make a any difference in their performance, well, I've got some good swampland and also The London Bridge, that I'd like to sell you. :roll:

Irohug5

crikey wrote:

Ah, pardon me gents for attempting to add balance to a very one sided thread. Y'all go ahead and carry on.

Given that I started the thread, have just bought tubular wheels and was asking specifically for advice on what tubular tyres to get I don't see how you can call it a one sided thread. People are just answering the question that I asked and giving me some good advice on what to get which i'm grateful for. I have already looked at the literally hundreds of threads debating the benefits or otherwise of both systems and have decided to give it a go.

Thanks to those who are giving me some helpful advice. Looking at the Corsas and Conti Comps now. Any others I should consider?

cycleclinic

Conti GP4000, vitoria Pave's, Veloflex everything (but these may be the most fragile and the most expensive) but the conti sprinter is probably the best for training as it is not too pricey and is pretty robust. It may not give the ride comfort of a Pave or corsa tub but it is not bad either. I quite like them. Some even use them for racing after or during rain in the country as I personally would not ride a corsa or veloflex tub after heavy rain here. flints gets washed of the field and they will cut through anything given a chance.

racingcondor

Irohug5 -

If you're looking for the nicest ride etc (i.e. primarily a good weather / race day tub) then the Vittoria Corsa or the Veloflex whichever you prefer are the best answers as has been said.

If you plan on doing more day to day riding then I liked my Pave's, survived a load of bad weather this winter and were great tyres for racing Hillingdon in Jan (until they finally flatted mid race). If you're planning on riding them day in - day out then Conti have some good options (I quite like the look of the Force tub, diamond pattern, light and 24mm), you give up some ride quality on Conti's but the grip and durability tend to be excellent.


Crikey what a Troll -

If you work out the wattage difference between all 10 of the top tyres in those tests then you're likely to find at 25mph watts the difference is marginal (2-3 watts). Yes, there are some great clinchers out there but tubs do give a better ride and are safer when something goes wrong. Add to that the potential problems caused by running latex tubes on deep carbon clinchers to get those CRR's and the added wheel weight...

Lets leave people to their own choices shall we. You're welcome to believe what you want just as I'm welcome to disagree.

dennisn

racingcondor wrote:

Lets leave people to their own choices shall we. You're welcome to believe what you want just as I'm welcome to disagree.

I don't think anyone really cares what type / brand of tire anyone else actually uses.
However, disagreeing with someone's IDEA that the tire THEY use is not a good choice is, well. bound to provoke
an argument. After all you're telling them that their thinking is wrong. Nobody likes that. The again this is a forum and I've never known them to be, how shall I say it, warm fuzzy places.

bernithebiker

dennisn wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

sungod wrote:

if you go for vittoria, i'd get isogrip every time, too many people report poor grip in the wet with the previous 3d sio2 compound

+1 absolutely.

I came off again last Sunday on a pre-Isogrip Vittoria. It was wet (again) and had negotiated the roundabout nicely, but on the exit I put some power down, and according to riders behind, the rear stepped right out, and for a few seconds I was like a speedway rider, then I lowsided and went down (at about 30km/h). No big injuries/damage, just a big graze on my hip, but that Vittorias coming off and going in the bin (was quite worn anyway), and I'll put on either a new Isogrip one, or a Mavic Powerlink.

It's all the tires fault? Of course it is. No matter that it was "wet(again)", that "...on the exit ....power down..", that the tire "...was quite worn anyway..", that maybe, just maybe, you went too hard for the conditions(no, couldn't be). Add to that the fact that you "...came off again..." and the conclusion I'm drawing is that you're a dangerous rider to be around. Oh, but I forgot. It was bad tires. :roll:

Sometimes you write some Grade A cr&p Dennis, but that really takes the biscuit.

Firstly, unless you've never fallen off your bike, (unlikely) how can you preach that I'm a 'dangerous' rider simply because I've come off? Using that line of thinking, the whole pro peloton is therefore 'dangerous', as they all have crashed, slid, etc. at some point.

Secondly, the tyre (not tire, UK here), is a bit worn, but not worn out. After just 500 miles, the tread pattern is gone from a rear Corsa.

Thirdly, I think I can reasonably claim to be a half-decent bike handler; I have a 20 year background in MTB racing, and I can wheelie an MTB as far as I like (although I concede that has nothing to do with cornering!)

Fourthly, are we then to deduce from your reasoning, that all tubs are the same in the wet? No difference at all? Hard to believe, surely? Some are bound to be better than others. My, and many others, conclusion is that the old Vittoria Corsa is very much in the 'below average' category in the wet.

Fifthly, (is that a word?), I am NOT totally blaming the tyre. We all looked at the (wet) road afterwards and diesel was clearly visible on it. It was very slippy. Not sure any tyre would have gripped, but maybe I could have held it up on a different one.

dennisn

bernithebiker wrote:

dennisn wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

sungod wrote:

if you go for vittoria, i'd get isogrip every time, too many people report poor grip in the wet with the previous 3d sio2 compound

+1 absolutely.

I came off again last Sunday on a pre-Isogrip Vittoria. It was wet (again) and had negotiated the roundabout nicely, but on the exit I put some power down, and according to riders behind, the rear stepped right out, and for a few seconds I was like a speedway rider, then I lowsided and went down (at about 30km/h). No big injuries/damage, just a big graze on my hip, but that Vittorias coming off and going in the bin (was quite worn anyway), and I'll put on either a new Isogrip one, or a Mavic Powerlink.

It's all the tires fault? Of course it is. No matter that it was "wet(again)", that "...on the exit ....power down..", that the tire "...was quite worn anyway..", that maybe, just maybe, you went too hard for the conditions(no, couldn't be). Add to that the fact that you "...came off again..." and the conclusion I'm drawing is that you're a dangerous rider to be around. Oh, but I forgot. It was bad tires. :roll:

Sometimes you write some Grade A cr&p Dennis, but that really takes the biscuit.

Firstly, unless you've never fallen off your bike, (unlikely) how can you preach that I'm a 'dangerous' rider simply because I've come off? Using that line of thinking, the whole pro peloton is therefore 'dangerous', as they all have crashed, slid, etc. at some point.

Secondly, the tyre (not tire, UK here), is a bit worn, but not worn out. After just 500 miles, the tread pattern is gone from a rear Corsa.

Thirdly, I think I can reasonably claim to be a half-decent bike handler; I have a 20 year background in MTB racing, and I can wheelie an MTB as far as I like (although I concede that has nothing to do with cornering!)

Fourthly, are we then to deduce from your reasoning, that all tubs are the same in the wet? No difference at all? Hard to believe, surely? Some are bound to be better than others. My, and many others, conclusion is that the old Vittoria Corsa is very much in the 'below average' category in the wet.

Fifthly, (is that a word?), I am NOT totally blaming the tyre. We all looked at the (wet) road afterwards and diesel was clearly visible on it. It was very slippy. Not sure any tyre would have gripped, but maybe I could have held it up on a different one.

It's no big deal. So you crashed? You're blaming a tire. I see it as you knew you were riding in slippery conditions, you knew the tire was wore, by your own account you knew that specific tire wasn't good in the wet, you put the power down a bit coming out of the turn, you weren't sure any tire would have gripped. By your own admission you knew there was danger but you choose to ignore it and / or you choose to push the limit. In other words, you went to far.
I think the key word in this is "you".

bernithebiker

Jesus Dennis, it's not that complicated. You can call me the crappest rider in the world if you like.

I'm simply sharing an experience that a Vittoria Corsa slipped in the wet. Noone will know if a Mavic or Veloflex would not have slipped, but given a previous off in Majorca 2 years ago, also in the wet, also on Vittoria Corsas, and given that other riders have also found these tyres lacking in the wet, there could be a link there no?

By the way, you didn't answer my question - are you telling us that all tubs grip the same in the wet?

BenderRodriguez

crikey wrote:

You are all aware that tubs have a worse rolling resistance than clinchers, right?

The reality is that a good, supple tubular with a latex tube has a lower rolling resistance than any clincher over a typically rough road surface.

The myth you repeat here largely arises from some 'tests' done by a German magazine which, as with almost all such tests, measured the rolling resistance using a rig equipped with a smooth metal roller. With such a set up the flexibility of the carcass and tube is less important, especially if the tyre is pumped up hard.

Out in the real world roads are not smooth metal surfaces but rough stone and tarmac. In order to minimise rolling resistance over such a surface the tyre pressure needs to be reduced to a pressure lower than that which most people habitually run in clinchers. (In part to avoid pinch flats.) This lowered pressure allows the tyre to work as it is supposed to, rather than the bike and rider being bumped up and down over each irregularity, so wasting a lot of energy.

Thing is, with a lower tyre pressure the flexibility of the casing and tube begins to play a big role, hence the superiority of a tubular. Yes, you could run an 'open tubular' version of a something like a Vittoria SC, but many people find that latex tubes in clinchers to be very unreliable, and they are always much thicker than those you find in a good tubular. Even then a tubular has better flex characteristics because of its perfectly round profile.

On a really rough surface, such as the cobbles of Paris Roubaix, the lowest rolling resistance will be found at around 70 psi or even less. For normal tarmac road surfaces a good tub will roll best at 90 - 100 Psi, and perhaps 10 psi less in the wet. Many people over-inflate tubs and then wonder why the supposed speed, responsiveness and 'magic carpet ride' does not seem to materialise!

The gains to be had from running a top-line tubular such a Veloflex or Vittoria SC at the right pressure over something like the supposedly 'faster' Gp4000s are not marginal, amounting to perhaps 5 watts per wheel, and this is in comparison tests using the usual smooth roller rig and running the clincher with a latex tube. On a typical rough road surface the gains can be twice as much, especially if compared to a clincher using a butyl tube. On a climb the gains to be had are similar to those to be had from losing 10 lb off the bike, and I think no one facing an Alpine climb would willingly chose a bike that was 10lb heavier, yet this is what they effectively do via their choice of tyres.

On top of this tubs can be run flat in a race situation, are much safer on indoor tracks because they keep rubber between metal and the boards in the case of a puncture, can often be re-inflated successfully with something like a Vittoria Pit-Stop sealant (generally unlike pressures) and carbon tubular rims also tend to be much lighter than the clincher versions with less issues relating to braking track delamination and tyre failure due to over heating.

OK, so I sound like a bit of an evangelist but I was out yesterday on my new Ambrosio Nemesis / Record / Vittoria SC wheels and after years on Conti Gp400s tyres they were a delight - once I remembered to drop the pressure a little.

BenderRodriguez

racingcondor wrote:

If you work out the wattage difference between all 10 of the top tyres in those tests then you're likely to find at 25mph watts the difference is marginal (2-3 watts). Yes, there are some great clinchers out there but tubs do give a better ride and are safer when something goes wrong. Add to that the potential problems caused by running latex tubes on deep carbon clinchers to get those CRR's and the added wheel weight...

Agreed, and those 2-3 watts are derived from tests using a rig with a smooth roller and using fragile latex tubes in the clinchers. Over typically rough tarmac the gains to be had from running a good tub are at least double this.

BenderRodriguez

Irohug5 wrote:

Thanks to those who are giving me some helpful advice. Looking at the Corsas and Conti Comps now. Any others I should consider?

Don't the Contis have a butyl tube? If so you are losing much of the advantage to be had from running a tub.

I am running Vittoria Corsa SC's with the new 'Isogrip' rubber mix and they are lovely, and there were only £29 each with the offer Planet X had on recently.

If you are feeling flush, the choice of the majority of the pros are FMB tubulars. Dugast's are pretty well regarded as well. Most Contis have a reputation for being 'hosepipes'.

http://www.fm-boyaux.fr/

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/03/ ... ars_164665

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/04/ ... 013_281135

dennisn

bernithebiker wrote:

By the way, you didn't answer my question - are you telling us that all tubs grip the same in the wet?

No, I'm not telling you that. Tubulars vary. We all know that.
What I'm telling you is that YOU are the one at fault for going down. You've admitted that you knew all the risks, yet you still got a bit aggressive at that curve. That's all I've ever tried to say. Doesn't matter what the brand or style tire it was, YOU pushed it too hard. Tires don't have faults, they have limits. People have faults AND limits. You pushed both and lost. No big deal but claiming it was the tires fault is bogus and kind of cowardly.