Training Advice for Long, Hilly Ride

ianwilliams

I could do with some pointers on training. I guess its all dependent on what you want and where you're starting from, so I've tried to provide as much info as possible!

Background:
I used to do a lot of running but due to various injuries I lost a lot of fitness and put weight on, so I got a road bike last July.

The most challenging ride I have done so far is last year's Otley Sportive (medium route) (link) which was a big challenge for me. I was slow and struggling, though I had only been riding about three months at that point.

Aim:
This August I am riding the Wild Wales challenge. Here is a previous route: link. I am riding with some friends who are far better, more experienced than I. I don't expect to finish with them but I'd like to finish (reasonably) strongly.

What I'm Currently Doing:
The weather has been bad so it has been mostly turbo or 8mi+ runs.

I have been doing 2-3 60 minute turbo efforts Mon-Fri; usually either the Sufferfest Hunted or Angels. At the weekend I have been struggling with the weather and opted in recent weeks for the Sufferfest ISLAGIATT, a two hour session. On the turbo efforts I usually cover about 15 miles in each hour, including warm up and warm down.

I want/need to get out more at weekends. There is a local club who I'd like to ride with although I did struggle to keep up with their pace when I first went out with them.

Weaknesses:
Ha! Most things. I am not great technically and I am overweight (87kg at 5'11"). On the bike the longest rides I have done are about 3-4 hours; 50 miles being the longest. As mentioned above I am slow on the flat (averaging 13-14mph) and struggle grinding up hills.

Strengths:
I am good when I get a challenge put in front of me. So I'm going to get round the Wild Wales course. I just want to do it reasonably well, rather than just surviving.

Plan:
-Keep up 2-3 turbo rides a week; club ride on Sunday (if weather is atrocious, longer turbo session or distance run)
-As light/weather improves during the year, substitute one or more of the midweek turbo rides for a 15-20mi outdoor ride.
-Lose weight - get this to below 79kg.

So any feedback you guys have, or ideas to improve things would be great. I'm open to any tools such as Trainer Road, rollers, or cross training that might aid things too. Thanks!

nevman

Decent diet and get out on the bike more.Think in terms of training hours per week,try and do 10 during the winter and increase to 15 gradually and you'll be fine.

ai_1

The main thing is to get out on the roads when you can and also do longer rides when you get the opportunity.
I would regard the turbo is an emergency substitute for getting outside or for very specific interval training. No point in using the turbo if the weather isn't prohibitive. It just no fun and it's less comfortable so you'll likely find it difficult to spend as long or work as hard on the turbo as out on the road. Mine gets used a little in winter for maintenance when the weather is just too horrible or dangerous. Once the weather improves the turbo will gather dust. If you were trying to polish your performance with very specific interval training sessions then perhaps a turbo might be useful but for your purposes I think you're better off just getting outside when you can.

I'm no expert. I've been riding for 3 years and started similar to you. I'd given up running due to an injury and 2 years later, after putting on weight and getting completely unfit, I started cycling. For the first 6 months I was getting out a couple of evenings a week for a short 15km ride and maybe 30-40km on a Sunday morning. However after increasing the distance on my weekend cycle I found my endurance improved pretty quickly. My first sportive was a 140km moderately hilly route a little more than a year after I started cycling. I struggled a bit as I hadn't really trained for that distance (I was originally planning to do a shorter 80km route but got ambitious and switched at the last minute). Still I thoroughly enjoyed it and have done many others since with a 200km mountainous route in 30 degree heat last year being the toughest to date.

I'd suggest taking it easy on your long cycles. Don't work too hard, just concentrate on increasing time in the saddle and throw in some hills if you've got some nearby. If you use a heart rate monitor spend most of your time around 65-75% max HR which should be relatively easy. You can push the intensity a little higher or do some intervals or hill repeats in your shorter cycles during the week if you feel like it.

The Wild Wales route isn't massively long but the profile in your link does show a few tough hills. That last one starting at 70.5 miles looks pretty horrible (roughly 3km averaging 12%). You'll want to do some steep hills between now and then so you know roughly what to expect and make sure you've got small enough gears to get you up it.
In my experience you'll always perform better in an event than you do in training. The atmosphere of a mass participation event makes a big difference.
Lighter weight will certainly help on the hills although at 87kg and 5'11" you're not too bad (a little better than me at 88kg and 5'10").

See what everyone else says but I think building distance on fairly easy rides over the next few months should be your main priority. If you're in a position to set aside several hours once a week to get out for a long ride I'm sure you'll do fine. For me, every Sunday morning is set aside for a medium/long ride.

ai_1

nevman wrote:

Decent diet and get out on the bike more.Think in terms of training hours per week,try and do 10 during the winter and increase to 15 gradually and you'll be fine.

Depends on your goals and lifestyle. For a lot of people, myself included, 10-15hrs is a huge amount. In the past couple of years I've averaged about half that. I'm sure 10-15hrs a week would lead to great performance but the OP should be able to get through a 130km sportive fine with much less than that.

I'm planning to do a half Ironman later this year and I'll be in trouble if about 9hrs per week isn't sufficient split between swimming, running and cycling...... but it will be

supermurph09

I'd get used to the climbing, 10,500ft will require a solid effort over 80 miles. 2 harder sessions in the week, intervals, overs/unders, sprints either on the road or turbo and gradually increase the time and distance should see you right. Don't avoid those hills, it'll be called "Wild" for a reason.

markhewitt1978

Ai_1 wrote:

Depends on your goals and lifestyle. For a lot of people, myself included, 10-15hrs is a huge amount. In the past couple of years I've averaged about half that. I'm sure 10-15hrs a week would lead to great performance but the OP should be able to get through a 130km sportive fine with much less than that.

Same. During the summer if I get out early on Sunday and back late I can do maybe 5 hours on a normal Sunday (i.e. I'm not doing a sportive etc), then maybe 2-3 hours during the week, again if the weather is super favourable. Most of the time it's all much less than that. But then some of us work for a living, have a family etc.

The OP will be able to do 80miles with much less than 10-15 hours, just don't expect to keep up at the front!

ianwilliams

OK guys, thanks for the advice.

So the general thinking is 2-3 high intensity rides during the week (turbo, hill repeats etc) before a longer, steadier ride on the Sunday?

How should I space this out - how do you manage recovery?

ai_1

ianwilliams wrote:

OK guys, thanks for the advice.

So the general thinking is 2-3 high intensity rides during the week (turbo, hill repeats etc) before a longer, steadier ride on the Sunday?

How should I space this out - how do you manage recovery?

The mid-week rides don't have to be high intensity. I'd prioritise distance over speed. Do some higher intensity stuff but I wouldn't do high intensity for all the shorter rides. Mix it up a bit to keep you interested and definitely do some hill climbs but the main thing for the first few months is just to get distance done. I'd suggest setting yourself a realistic total distance goal per week, maybe something like 80-100km initially and increase it to 120-140km over the next couple of months. Do the bulk of the distance in a single ride at the weekend and make up the rest in 2 or 3 shorter rides during the week. Do more if you can and increase the length of the weekend ride gradually until you're riding at least 75-80% of the event distance. If your training rides are on much easier terrain then maybe do 100% of the distance at least a few times.

bahzob

ianwilliams wrote:

OK guys, thanks for the advice.

So the general thinking is 2-3 high intensity rides during the week (turbo, hill repeats etc) before a longer, steadier ride on the Sunday?

How should I space this out - how do you manage recovery?

At this volume of training you don't really need to worry about recovery in the sense of overcoming fatigue. This will happen during all your downtime Fatigue recovery only becomes a serious issue when you are training hard most every day and/or doing multiple workouts per day. Don't fret if you feel sore and tired the day after a workout, that's a good sign and down to "DOMS". You can still train effectively even then, the soreness disappears after a good warm-up. You only need to worry if you never feel rough after training, it means you are not going hard enough.

Schedule the workouts so you can be as sure as possible to be able to do them on plan and to a good standard, minimising chances of disruption due to every day life.

Since you are also trying to lose weight I'd advise trying to finish the workouts before a normal meal time. During this meal aim to combine protein with a high GI carbohydrate like pasta. This will kick start the "anabolic" muscle building process which is actually the key thing that "recovery" aims to accomplish, there's a 4 hour or so window after training when this is most active and the goal is to take best advantage of this by eating the right stuff to initiate/fuel it. It's best to avoid the need to take on additional calories to do this if you are overweight.

One other thing. If not already done so get a good bike fit. Even if you have no aches/pains riding chances are that you are not set up in the best way. Some of your training effort will go to waste if you are losing power because you are riding in an inefficient position.

ianwilliams

Cheers again. Yep - a bike fit is definitely on the list.

In terms of midweek rides, what's a reasonable distance? I get that I'm prioritising distance over speed, although limited time after work kind of means to go much beyond 15mi would require me to up my speed.

ai_1

ianwilliams wrote:

Cheers again. Yep - a bike fit is definitely on the list.

In terms of midweek rides, what's a reasonable distance? I get that I'm prioritising distance over speed, although limited time after work kind of means to go much beyond 15mi would require me to up my speed.

What ever you can fit in. If you've got an hour, ride for an hour. It'll add up. If you've only got 30 mins then maybe make the best of it and do some high intensity stuff with intervals or cranking over a low gear for a while to build strength for the hills.

richa

Ai_1 wrote:

or cranking over a low gear for a while to build strength for the hills.

Cycling 'strength' for hills is built by gaining sustainable aerobic power, not leg strength.

If you need to crank low gears on a hill it is likely you have fitted the wrong chainset/cassette.

Training for a century ride should work on building sustainable power not your leg strength.

This guy seems to do ok with stick thin legs:

ianwilliams

A question with regard to the above:

I struggle turning my bottom gear (28) on hills above 15%, of which there are quite a few round here. Compact up front.

Surely that is a leg strength issue?

bahzob

ianwilliams wrote:

A question with regard to the above:

I struggle turning my bottom gear (28) on hills above 15%, of which there are quite a few round here. Compact up front.

Surely that is a leg strength issue?

Yes it is and no it isn't for the following reason.

Everybody, will have an absolute limit in terms of what gear they can turn up a given hill. This is slightly complicated by the fact that you used different energy systems depending on how long the climb is so you may be able to do a short sprint hill in the big ring but not be able to do the same up Galibier. Still even the worlds best cyclists will have a limit, they may be able to turn 39x25 up a 15% hill but could not turn 53x11 up a 30% one.

However the solution to this and root issue is not leg strength. The main concern for cyclists is power.

In terms of the variables we can affect while riding Power = torque * rpm.

Leg "strength" has an effect on power but its not straightforward. If you generate large force at low revs you are relying on fast twitch muscles that tire quickly, so increasing power by pushing harder can result in tiring quicker = less "strong" on all but the shortest climbs.

Moreover power depends on torque. This requires that you apply force in the most effective direction throughout the pedal stroke which is constantly changing as the crank rotates. If you simply push down as hard as you can every rev then you create a force spike twice per rev (one for each leg) which is inefficient and means that muscles that could help generate power are under utilised.

For these reasons the best way to increase leg "strength" for climbing is not doing squats.

Instead simply increase rpm. Pushing less hard but turning pedals over quicker = more power. Especially if you focus on delivering force in a manner that maximises torque rather than just mindlessly grunting your way up.

ianwilliams

OK, that's really interesting, thanks.

But if I'm struggling in my easiest gear - say a cadence of 65 - how can I increase that cadence without simply being stronger? Surely cadence is a result of leg strength?

dw300

Its way easier and faster to loose weight than gain strength. So increase your power to weight ratio by loosing weight and you'll turn that gear over much easier.

ai_1

bahzob wrote:

ianwilliams wrote:

A question with regard to the above:

I struggle turning my bottom gear (28) on hills above 15%, of which there are quite a few round here. Compact up front.

Surely that is a leg strength issue?

Yes it is and no it isn't for the following reason.............


...........For these reasons the best way to increase leg "strength" for climbing is not doing squats.

Instead simply increase rpm. Pushing less hard but turning pedals over quicker = more power. Especially if you focus on delivering force in a manner that maximises torque rather than just mindlessly grunting your way up.

Power = speed x force

if you double your cadence and half your pedal force you maintain identical output (ignoring any drivetrain losses;)).

In general I agree with your comments but the problem is if you simply don't have sufficient sustainable power for your smallest gear to provide a comfortably high rpm. Heavier riders have this problem much more often than light ones because they're doing considerably more work to get up the hill and while they may have the muscle to generate lots of burst power their heart and lungs are not proportiaonally bigger than lighter riders. So on medium or long climbs heavier riders need smaller gears or they need to live with undesirably low cadenence.

ianwilliams wrote:

OK, that's really interesting, thanks.

But if I'm struggling in my easiest gear - say a cadence of 65 - how can I increase that cadence without simply being stronger? Surely cadence is a result of leg strength?

Yes if you have no easier gear to move to then you just have to live with the lower cadence.
This is why I suggested doing some riding in bigger than normal gears on the flat (if hills aren't available) to get accustomed to higher pedal force at lower cadence which is likley to be needed on the steep hills you'll be riding. You weigh about the same as me and are currently slower on the flat so it's reasonable to assume you won't be climbing faster than me. I can't keep the cadence in an ideal range on steep hills with the gears you're using so I doubt you'll be able to either. The alternative is to switch to a wide range cassette with 30 or more teeth or get a triple.

imposter2.0

ianwilliams wrote:

But if I'm struggling in my easiest gear - say a cadence of 65 - how can I increase that cadence without simply being stronger? Surely cadence is a result of leg strength?

What you need is a higher level of aerobic fitness, not more leg strength. Cycling is not a strength-limited activity, so assuming you can walk up stairs, then you can already lift your own bodyweight, so your existing leg strength is almost certainly already sufficient for the task in hand. But what you may lack is the ability to push your existing leg strength through the pedals in a repeated, cyclic fashion for the duration of the hill.

markhewitt1978

Agreed with that, I always find on steep climbs it's my ability to breathe rather than my legs which is the limiting factor.

In fact on steep climbs I have more than enough power simply by standing, but my heart rate cries enough pretty quickly.

Guanajuato

I'm in a similar position. I've been riding for a couple of years and all my rides are hilly (around 90ft/mile average) but with some particularly steep bits. In general I keep up with others on flat and slight uphill. but once its gets above about 8%, I just can't keep my momentum going and on steeper sections get to the point where I can't turn the pedals quickly enough to keep my balance. Late last year I got a Trek Domane with a triple, and the lowest gears mean that the steepest are doable until the point that I can't keep the front wheel down or am going so slow I lose balance. I really struggle out of the saddle in the lower 4 or 5 gears, so end up in higher gears for (short) bursts, but then crunch back to lower gears when I have to sit. I can't keep up out of the saddle efforts for more than about 10 seconds (or less).
I'm signed up for a 60 miler that ends with 2500ft of climbing in the last 5 miles (Great Dun Fell in early May). I know I need to get out and ride up hills - I've been doing Kendal to Shap and back a few times to get in the long hills. My problem now is that I pulled my hamstring quite badly playing football (for the first time in 20 years) last week - roughly how long should I avoid too much strain? Still hurts a fair bit moving between sitting/standing and when walking quicker.

PS - sorry for the long post and hijack! ;-)

macroadie

ianwilliams wrote:

OK guys, thanks for the advice.

So the general thinking is 2-3 high intensity rides during the week (turbo, hill repeats etc) before a longer, steadier ride on the Sunday?

How should I space this out - how do you manage recovery?

For me being new to cycling (8months) i take a day off after a hard training.
I do turbo Tuesday, Thursday and saturday 50-60miles. Some weeks i do a block (Tuesday, Wednesday & take off thursday then Friday easy spining and Saturday 55miles tempo on hilly areas)