Groupset / Wheel Advice

twgh

Hey all,

This is my first post on here so appreciate any feedback.

I am currently having a custom built steel frame (columbus spirit) made for me and I am now trying to finalise my build. I currently ride campagnolo but am not overly fond of thumb shifting. I have tried both Sram and Shimano and find the shifting to be easier and more to my preference. I am not really bothered which way I go now and will be basing decision on aesthetics as essentially they both shift very well.

I have narrowed the options down to the following, and am very stuck, I think all 3 have pros and cons but really can't decide so I am seeking advice:

1 - Dura Ace 9000 with Dura Ace C24 9000 wheels - spending the money on the groupset and getting some very good alu clinchers for the next year with the intention of purchasing some carbon clinchers at a later date. The shimano / shimano thing looks really ace in my mind.

2 - Force 22 / Wheelsmith (UK handbuilts) Race 38/50 carbon clinchers with CK hubs - spending the money on the wheels and going for a lesser groupset. My main concern is that force 22 is not as good as Red / DA? It seems to me that Force 22 does everything the other two will do just slightly heavier. Think this may be the mst bling of the 3 options. My main worry is that I am going to the alps / dolomites this summer and have heard bad things about carbon clinchers.

3 - Red 22 / some £600 aluminium clinchers - not sure what wheels to pair with this gruppo. I like the bling of Red and think it fits very well with a steel frame. My only thought is that DA9000 is actually a better groupset.

Any thoughts?

Grill

4 - Ultegra 6800 with Pacenti SL23 on DA9000 hubs.

twgh

I had considered Ultegra and had looked long and hard at pacenti's very nice looking. Have you ridden them? If so waht are your thoughts?

I am not sold on looks of ultegra though so would lean Force 22 if I had the choice.

DiscoBoy

There is a recent thread about red vs dura ace here:
viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=12958199

Force 22 and red 22 are very very similar. The only real difference is weight (about 400g if I remember correctly).

Handbuilt wheels are the "sensible" choice because of the serviceability, but I would always choose Dura Ace or Record hubs over Chris King, which I don't see as being worth the money.

Why do you think that Dura Ace is the better groupset? The difference really is only down to personal preference.

If it were me, I'd get either Force22 or ultegra 6800 and spend the money saved on wheels. ~£500 for ultegra 11 is a bargain for what you're getting, and the £600 you're saving over DA gets you most of the way towards some nice carbon wheels.

Grill

In that case DA9000 and the wheels I suggested. I haven't ridden the SL23 (on Archetypes for the winter and they're fantastic) but have a few friends who swear by them and there is no doubt that DA9000 hubs are the best on the market (from an overall package perspective). I'd also look at Hed Belgium C2 if you can source a pair.

Not sure about the issue with the 'looks' of 6800, as they're almost identical bar the chainset. If that's the part you don't like then I'd suggest Rotor w/Parxis rings as an alternative that would save a bundle of cash.

twgh

basically the 3 options all cost out at around £1600-1700.

DA 9000 is £1050
DA C24 is £550
Force 22 is £600
Red 22 is £1080
Wheelsmith with CK are £1118
Ultegra is £470

Why Dura Ace hubs over CK? simply money?

Pacenti with DA hubs + Red 22 is another option. I have never ridden carbon clinchers before - would they be noticeably better than C24s or the Pacenti?

twgh

Thanks all - I have narrowed it down to:

Force 22 / Pacenti SL 23 on some WI T11 hubs
Or slightly more expensive
DA 9000 / DA C24s

any thoughts?

Grill

DA 9000 / Pacenti SL23 on DA9000 hubs. Seriously, there is no better hub on the market. I'm sure Ugo or Cycleclinic will be by shortly to give you details as to why (longevity and ease of servicing come to mind).

twgh

Whilst I would love to do that - the C24s are currently £550 whereas SL23s on DA9000 will come in at around £700 - don't really have that extra £150 sadly.

Grill

DA9000 hubs are 240 and rims are 170. Whoever is charging £700 quid for the build is having a laugh.

Don't buy C24's unless you're comfortable with throwing them out once you've worn through the rims (could be as little as 6-7k miles).

twgh

Perhaps it is because I was looking at CX Ray spokes which are very pricey? What would be a good alternative?

Also am I being an idiot for feeling it is wrong to put a Sram Gruppo (if I decide to go that way) on to DA hubs>? seems wrong!

Grill

You don't need CX Ray spokes. They'll save you a few grams but they're fiddly as compared with the other options (DT Comp should be fine).

Yes you are being silly. If SRAM made hubs as good as Shimano then I would actually consider buying Zipps.

twgh

Thanks Grill some really useful stuff there - it seems that in your opinion the DA9000 hubs are best bang for buck. What tyres would you suggest on the Pacenti's? 23mm GP4000s?

Now back to the age old question of...is DA9000 worth £450 more than Force 22. I am leaning towards Force 22 as I am sure it will be more than adequate for my needs.

Grill

25mm.

To me yes simply because I'm not a fan of double-tap (of course I still think 6800 with a different chainset is the way to go if you don't like the aesthetics), but speaking with no vested interested the correct answer is no.

twgh

6800 Gruppo but with a Rotor 3D+ Crank and Praxis rings?

I have very little vested interest in what is better (they both shift gears) apart from I think doubletap is very neat and that Force looks nice than Ultegra. On the other hand I think DA looks nicer than Red.

Ultegra is 300g heavier than Force as well

Grill

That's what I would go with, but I am a Shimano fanboy. If you like doubletap and prefer the look of Force then there's your answer.

twgh

Oh and why 25mm - better ride?

Grill

Lower rolling resistance as well as smoother ride due to being run at lower pressure.

twgh

Thanks for all your help Grill

cycleclinic

The Pancenti rim is nice looking but given the price I always end using the archetype, it is only 30g more and wonderful in every way. DA9000 hubs are easy to service and if you change the ball and grease every 5000 miles or so your hubs will last a life time.

An archetype build with DA 9000 hubs Laser spokes front and NDS rear Race spokes DS rear and brass nipples weighs 1665g in 24F/28R. A 28F/32R would weigh 50g more. If you use the Pancenti rim you gave a whopping 60g at the rim for an extra £80 or so.

A lower spoke count work fine for many riders. 32 spoke rear is helpful for those 90kg.

If you think 60g saving at the rim will change the way you ride think again it is barely noticeable. So Archetypes on DA hubs if you have the coin otherwise Ultegra hubs but in 32H or 36H form do an excellent job but weight more. Don't discount cheaper hubs like Miche they last too.

The final hubset not even mentioned is campagnolo record 32H only in black but they are very light. With a shimano freehub body they weigh 378g for a pair, just like the DA hubs (370g) but the freehub body on these [record] is steel rather Ti on the DA hubs. Record hubs are cheaper than DA hubs as well pretty much everywhere.

twgh

It appears that I could get a really nice set of aluminium clinchers, that will outperform any of the factory wheelsets, for around £500?

I weigh 78kg so would hope 24/28 would suffice. If I am honest I am not really going to want to do much servicing etc. on that basis it appears that the DA9000 hubs would be best bet, only issue I still have it sthat the DA9000 C24s are currently £550 online, which seems hard to beat. Both the Pacenti and the Archetype will weigh more so the only advantage is the rebuildability? Would this be correct?

I had originally thought WI T11 on Pacenti/Archetype as it is a little different and would look great with my custom frame.

At the same time, wheelsmith race 38 carbon clinchers also look lovely (I know not to everyones taste though) - I keep flip flopping between Force 22 / carbon clinchers DA9000/ handbuilt alu clinchers / c24s

Grill

Carbon clinchers (especially in 38mm) don't really offer anything except for looks. Any sort of aero benefit is negligible and the braking (especially in the wet) leaves much to be desired. Weight-wise they won't save much if anything.

The issue with C24's is that you're basically buying a 1-shot wheel (the issue with most factory wheelsets). The rims ae machined to a MM of their life in order to save weight and due to the awkward drillings and proprietary spokes you can't source replacement rims for a reasonable price (think the cheapest I've seen is over 200 a rim). Both the Pacenti and Archetypes will be more aero and more comfortable (wider rims).

vecfluxx

I have SL23's on T11's (24/28, lasers with race RDS) and have just got Archetypes on 6800 ultegra hubs 32/32 for winter (1 ride so far) I cant say i noticed much difference after one ride nor can I rate the T11's after less than a year, but there are a few differences. Tyres sit noticeably wider in the SL23's IMO, and tyres (GP4000's and 4 seasons) are much harder to mount on the SL23's, luckily I only had a couple of slow punctures i could ride home last summer.

Also the T11's look amazing in polished silver and i'm 70-75 kg and have felt no flex at all so they should be fine for you.

twgh

I am guessing I would be unable to feel the difference in weight between the Archetype and Pacenti? So on that basis I am better of with the Archetype with some DA9000 hubs and some slightly cheaper spokes for around the £550-600. On the other hand WI T11 on Pacenti with some cheaper spokes would be around the £600-650 mark. I am guessing both sets would be great at both cruising round Surrey and the alps/dolomites and an upgrade on my last set of good wheels (which I just sold the shamal ultras).

This then means I can put money into a top of the range gruppo (DA 9000 / Red 22) and would have my frame and groupset for next 5 years or so.

vecfluxx

Where are you getting prices for the wheels from? putting them into the Just riding along calculator archetypes on dura ace with lasers/ race RDS is about £460.

twgh

Based on some quotes I had been given by some reputable wheelbuilders. I am assuming I am paying too much. Are lasers/race more than adequate spokes?

Grill

Contact thecycleclinic or Ugo for a price on wheels.

twgh

Will do that - I guess it is basically a case of seeing what the best build I can get for my budget.

vecfluxx

CX rays are just lasers in an aero profile, Lasers are they same weight and about a quater of the price. yes i think they are definitely good enough. Race are slightly heavy for the rear drive side.

Just riding along has been excellent in my experience, In your position i would go for archetypes on dura ace (£460) or T11's (~£510).

twgh

Do you need the Race for the rear drive side? Or could you go laser the whole way round? Also I am assuming brass nipples to be more english weatherproof?

vecfluxx

thecycleclinic or Ugo will know better than me but i would think thicker RDS spoker are worth the extra 30g. I went for brass nipples on both my builds.