Grand Prix 4 Season grief

damocles10

I noticed my rear tyre was looking worn today so went out to get a new tyre. I bought a Grand Prix 4 season and tried to install it on my Zipp 404....that was tough but managed it....pumped it up and it deflated, I must have pinched the tube, these things happen.

I am now in a position when I can not take the tyre off the wheel. I have snapped 3 tyre levers and it just won't budge. I have another 3 levers left which I need for the road so I am not keen to snap anymore.

Any ideas on how to get the tyre off?

Chris

cycleclinic

buy proper tyre levers like ones shops use. I have two sets Park metal ones when things get really tough or Campagnolo plastic levers. I have found all other plastic levers to inferior to campag ones. Given I take a lot of tyres on and off. I the last 15 months or so I have only broken 2 campag levers. Buy these are not cheap but they don'e break either.

rafletcher

Try this...

Get a couple of old toe-straps (or in my case a couple of 1cm wide nylon load straps) and tie the tyre (valve at the bottom) tight to the rim at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock.

Push the bead of the tyre at the bottom into the well of the rim, and work both hands round and up, pinching the tyre and pushing in to the well of the rim all the way around, past the tied points, to the top. Doing this several times should allow a lever to be popped under the bead at the top.

The technoque will also work (I got marathons onto TN719 rims) to get tight tyres onto rims without the need for tyre levers. It takes time and affort.

There is a video on youtube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XUFVrl0UT4

damocles10

Thank you for the tips.

The tyre levers are the ones supplied with the puncture kit, so they are not that great. I just had a poke around my old tool box and was lucky enough to find a chunky Park tool plastic lever. I managed to get the tyre off....

Rafletcher, I will try that when I reinstall the tyre. I usually use brute force, I like that technique with the straps.

EDIT: Wow that actually works....I used string instead of straps. They made it so much easier to install a tight tyre.

bobones

Nice one. Now get yourself some Pedros levers. They're plastic, but they're indefatigable!

damocles10

Never had problems with tyre levers before....It's is best to invest a little bit of money in to some good quality ones. I would have hated to have this happen on the road side.

maddog 2

metal is stronger than plastic. Just remember that.

marcusjb

Just take a hacksaw and gently cut away around a 28.3mm section of the rim. This will enable you to bend the rim inwards just enough to remove the tyre, still in pristine condition (occasionally, you may get a stubborn rim and find that you need to use a bolt cropper and cut 2 or 3 spokes out to really help that rim bend enough).

But, in all seriousness, as you've said, a really tight tyre and rim combination is not a good thing when it's pouring with rain, it's 3 degrees and you can't get that tyre off because your hands are numb. So, do make sure whatever tyre/rim/lever combination you have works well, otherwise it may lead to a DNF on a ride.

patrickf

Likewise, I have broken cheapo levers that came with tool kits, but the Park Tools ones (blue plastic ones, not the heavy weight metal ones) are still going strong and are the only ones I use now.

andrew_s

damocles10 wrote:

Never had problems with tyre levers before....It's is best to invest a little bit of money in to some good quality ones. I would have hated to have this happen on the road side.

What I did when I had an excessively tight tyre (also GP4S) was to fit it to a spare wheel, pump it up to 150psi with my track pump, and leave it until the alternative tyre had worn out, topping up the pressure at intervals. It was OK second time round - still tight, but not unreasonably so.

charlie_potatoes

You could also try making sure that the tyre is warm by leaving it near a radiator.

ugo.santalucia

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

You could also try making sure that the tyre is warm by leaving it near a radiator.

THis

cycleclinic

Park Tool pastic levers break if you use them often enough. When I started the shop this is what I had. I got bored of replacing them every few weeks and switched to campag plastic levers. As the big metal ones can leave marks on a rim I try to avoid using them unless I have no choice (schawble marathon plus for example on some rims). I have never needed toe straps. Chasing the tyre around the rim gathers some slack and proper technique does the rest (pushing the bead with both thumbs end to end while rolling the tyre back with the both hands works every time expect for gator skin hardshell tyres on MA40 rims).

ugo.santalucia

The 4 seasons are tight and if paired with a tight rim you get the picture.

Tyre levers: Campagnolo are good, some others are good... don't be tempted by the steel core/plastic coated ones... they are junk... the steel bends resulting in the plastic cracking
The Park Tool are awkward.

To be honest the best thing is to buy a tyre that doesn't need tyre levers, which rules out Continental

damocles10

For the winter I usually use Vittoria Rubino Pros - they fit very nicely on the rim. I tried the Four Seasons as a treat to see if they are any good....time will tell. They do look good on the Zipps.

ugo.santalucia

damocles10 wrote:

For the winter I usually use Vittoria Rubino Pros - they fit very nicely on the rim. I tried the Four Seasons as a treat to see if they are any good....time will tell. They do look good on the Zipps.

They're not... return them if you have not used them yet.
If you want something that looks good for winter get a set of Panaracer Pasela TG 25... they look ace on carbon. These are 32 and look massive, but the 25 are normal



20 quid or so for the rigid and a bit more for the folding ones

cycleclinic

4 seasons are fine tyres but even though they are called four season I still see them as a light weight race tyre for riding in conditions like we have now they just don't last long for me where I ride. Other I know who ride the same roads get on with them fine. I am just a flint magnet unfortunately.

damocles10

Ah! OK.

Thanks for the heads up on that one...ridden on them now and will see. All unused types of tyres are a bit of a gamble until they are tested....if they are not fit for purpose I won't buy any more.

They seemed fine today in semi-wet gritty conditions.

patrickf

thecycleclinic wrote:

Park Tool pastic levers break if you use them often enough. When I started the shop this is what I had. I got bored of replacing them every few weeks and switched to campag plastic levers. As the big metal ones can leave marks on a rim I try to avoid using them unless I have no choice (schawble marathon plus for example on some rims). I have never needed toe straps. Chasing the tyre around the rim gathers some slack and proper technique does the rest (pushing the bead with both thumbs end to end while rolling the tyre back with the both hands works every time expect for gator skin hardshell tyres on MA40 rims).

I'm fully expecting them to snap at some point, though touch wood I don't need them often.

I seem to recall the metal Park Tool ones I saw recently had a plastic outer to prevent gouge marks?

slowbike

damocles10 wrote:

Ah! OK.

Thanks for the heads up on that one...ridden on them now and will see. All unused types of tyres are a bit of a gamble until they are tested....if they are not fit for purpose I won't buy any more.

They seemed fine today in semi-wet gritty conditions.

The GP4Seasons are great tyres in the wet - a little more durable than the 4000s too.
I'm riding on them today - in chalk/flint covered roads. You can puncture - they're not bombproof - but they're still quick for a reasonably robust tyre - it's all a trade off anyway.

I think they're on about 3500 miles now - but one is on light duties as it has a repaired slash in the sidewall (ran over a metal bracket Doh!). They're not cheap, but IME they're good for a fast touring/commuting tyre.

ugo.santalucia

Slowbike wrote:

but IME they're good for a fast touring/commuting tyre.

Neither-nor

They are training tyres without any particular merit... as touring tyres they're not even worth considering for the lack of volume and for commuting they are too expensive, they lack volume for stones/soil/cobbles/holes and they're not durable enough to justify the cost.

I don't ike Conti, but they are very good at rating their own tyres and as you can see in their touring/commuting range, the gp 4 seasons do not appear

http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/conticycle ... ring.shtml

They do however make an appearance in the road tyres as training/sportive product

damocles10

I have had sidewall issues with Continental tyres before, very easily cut - this was around 6 or 7 years ago. Which is why I normally go for Vittoria or Vredestein - didn't have the choice this time around as the original tyre, with all this wet weather, was gone ( tube almost coming through ) and my LBS had very few options.

You would have thought for the price they would have fixed the sidewall issue. Anyway, they seem fine, worth the cost? time will tell.

slowbike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

but IME they're good for a fast touring/commuting tyre.

Neither-nor

They are training tyres without any particular merit... as touring tyres they're not even worth considering for the lack of volume and for commuting they are too expensive, they lack volume for stones/soil/cobbles/holes and they're not durable enough to justify the cost.

I don't ike Conti, but they are very good at rating their own tyres and as you can see in their touring/commuting range, the gp 4 seasons do not appear

http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/conticycle ... ring.shtml

They do however make an appearance in the road tyres as training/sportive product

You say it all in 4 words ... you may not like Conti - but many do ... there is no right/wrong answer. If Conti produced crap tyres then they wouldn't be in business - similarly, if they were the absolute best out there that nothing could beat then there wouldn't be other makes to consider.

The roads I ride on are far from smooth - and I ride on 23mm tyres - I could up that size if I needed/wanted more volume - I don't ... I've ridden 11+ mile commutes to 85 mile sportives on them. I've taken them "off road" too - well, hard packed ex railway path ... (yes - 23mm tyres).

I've loaded them up with rack & pannier - but you might want slightly bigger tyres if you're going to do that regularly - the odd occasional run won't hurt. If you're fast touring you're hardly likely to be loaded up ... so more like a lightly loaded sportive then ...

Durable .. nearly 4k miles and still ok (apart from 1 sidewall slash that would've taken out any road tyre)

Cost - ok, they're more pricey than others - it's true ... I got mine when they were the same price as the 4000s and both on special offer ... haven't seen that offer since

ugo.santalucia

damocles10 wrote:

I have had sidewall issues with Continental tyres before, very easily cut - this was around 6 or 7 years ago. Which is why I normally go for Vittoria or Vredestein - didn't have the choice this time around as the original tyre, with all this wet weather, was gone ( tube almost coming through ) and my LBS had very few options.

You would have thought for the price they would have fixed the sidewall issue. Anyway, they seem fine, worth the cost? time will tell.

I take a more holistic view of the subject. All road tyres are inherently weak... what do you expect out of a 700 c hoop that weighs 250 grams? They are meant to be ridden on tarmac, not holes. If you want or have to ride on holes in the tarmac, then you need a different kind of tyre.
Your brand type approach will soon be rubbished by someone else saying that his Rubino cut so easily that he had to buy Conti... and you're both wrong... there is no such thing as a robust road tyre... some are weak and some are weaker, none of them is meant to be ridden on a bad surface... you can be lucky and get away with it a few times, but eventually the tyre will cut and will fail

ugo.santalucia

Slowbike wrote:

You say it all in 4 words ... you may not like Conti - but many do ... there is no right/wrong answer. If Conti produced crap tyres then they wouldn't be in business - similarly, if they were the absolute best out there that nothing could beat then there wouldn't be other makes to consider.

I didn't say Conti are crap... I said I don't like them... some do and I do respect that

boydster76

I'm that person that has only ever ridden on contis (GP4000s and GP4S) and hasn't had an issue. I've had the occasional puncture from the usual things but never a sidewall issue. I'm not wed to conti in any way but until I have an issue that makes me re-evaluate my tyre choice I won't be changing as I don't see the need.

damocles10

I'm not a brand person.

I tend to go for a product which I have experienced as good value, reliable and fit for purpose. I have tried tyres which are awful and some which are really good - when I used to race I had different needs than now - I just like to ride and train to keep on top of health and fitness so weight and speed ( I still like to go fast ) is not a priority.

If the tyre I use has reasonable puncture protection and last =>3 months I am happy.

In this case, I have used Rubino pros, a good choice as they serve me well and are well priced. Like I said, with all this wet weather they did wear out quicker than expected which is why I bought the GP 4 season - If I have a good experience with the GP's there is no reason why I won't buy more, provided I can source a better price.

slowbike

boydster76 wrote:

I'm that person that has only ever ridden on contis (GP4000s and GP4S) and hasn't had an issue. I've had the occasional puncture from the usual things but never a sidewall issue. I'm not wed to conti in any way but until I have an issue that makes me re-evaluate my tyre choice I won't be changing as I don't see the need.

Until last sept I would've been in the same situation - many a good mile on GP4000s and GP4Season - then a spate of 3 sidewall slashes in quick succession - then nothing since (famous last words) - I put it down to cr4p on the road and not being more careful with the path I've taken ...
For winter commuting I mainly change over to more robust tyres - but that's because some of the un-classified roads I travel resemble a farm track - but with all the rain recently I risked the 4season again today - despite there being plenty of flint around we're still good for the return trip.

The 4000s have been out on the club rides - mixture of tyres on display - Gatorskins, 4seasons and 4000s as well as the other brands - nobody has been snobbish about it or rubbished anyone elses tyre choice (other than the split one!) - like all road tyres, you just need to be careful about where you're riding.

If you want to be oblivious to where you're riding then you need a robust tyre - more rubber, knobbly bits on and preferably studs as well - I've got a set of those, all pumped up ready for when the ice starts forming - but they're blummin slow and hard work ... so I'll save those for the bad weather!

ugo.santalucia

damocles10 wrote:

In this case, I have used Rubino pros, a good choice as they serve me well and are well priced. Like I said, with all this wet weather they did wear out quicker than expected which is why I bought the GP 4 season - If I have a good experience with the GP's there is no reason why I won't buy more, provided I can source a better price.

The fact that contis are too tight for your rims would be enough to put me off altogether... I'd end up riding in fear of having to do repair at the side of the road, basically spoiling the all experience... yes, I am paranoid...
I got rid of rims that were too tight for that very reason and I no longer ride German tyres also for that reason

I now only ride combinations of rims + tyres that I can fit with no need for tyre levers... that saves time and hassle...

German tyres... :?

slowbike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

German tyres... :?

Almost as bad as their cars eh?!

ugo.santalucia

Slowbike wrote:

Almost as bad as their cars eh?!

Their cars are good... but cars need to be reliable, while bicycle tyres need to unfold a story over many miles... and Conti's story is a dull one.
Generally speaking they all have a rather hard carcass and ride well below the nominal TPI... for example your GP 4 season have over 300 nominal TPI, but I question the way Conti measure their TPI as they ride like a tyre with 50 TPI.
What it menas is that they are awful to ride on our less than perfect roads...
As you probably know I do ride a lot of cobbles and the worst pneumatics for cobbles are Gatorskin, you might as well ride on your bare rims