Does this seem fair?

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Comments

  • chuckla
    chuckla Posts: 132
    The term used in insurance is Betterment, mainly used in motor insurance , but can apply to bikes, particularly with theft or damage claims

    "Betterment is the term used when property is repaired which results in it being in a better condition than before the incident. Consequentially insurers may ask the client to contribute to the cost of the repair. The contribution is referred to as betterment."
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    It's fair, you can't expect a complete new replacement for something that is used beyond a certain time scale unless using your own new for old policy. Sooner or later a gap insurer is going to start covering cycles which would help in claims like these.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • chris_bass
    chris_bass Posts: 4,913
    Just to say that the solicitor is from leigh day and they have been really good throughout the process, they respond to email very quickly and give a good level of detail in their responses . I guess the advice I have been given is based on their previous dealings with insurers.

    I'm not after a brand new bike just for the sake of it, I wasn't considering changing my bike before the incident and unless someone happens to be selling the same bike, same condition, same size then what am I meant to do? either buy a worse new bike or a less suitable secondhand one. As far as I see it, as the driver has admitted full liability I shouldn't be any worse off after the incident, and I get the feeling I am going to be.
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  • lawrences
    lawrences Posts: 1,011
    philthy3 wrote:
    It's fair, you can't expect a complete new replacement for something that is used beyond a certain time scale unless using your own new for old policy. Sooner or later a gap insurer is going to start covering cycles which would help in claims like these.
    Equally you shouldn't be left out of pocket especially when the accident was not his fault. A new bike is a tiny amount of cash to an insurance company I don't get why they don't just pay up.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    lawrences wrote:
    Equally you shouldn't be left out of pocket especially when the accident was not his fault. A new bike is a tiny amount of cash to an insurance company I don't get why they don't just pay up.

    Especially when you consider the inflated repair bills they get for repairing car accidents. Even if they were to purchase a brand new bike it would still be one of their smaller claims.
  • lawrences
    lawrences Posts: 1,011
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    lawrences wrote:
    Equally you shouldn't be left out of pocket especially when the accident was not his fault. A new bike is a tiny amount of cash to an insurance company I don't get why they don't just pay up.

    Especially when you consider the inflated repair bills they get for repairing car accidents. Even if they were to purchase a brand new bike it would still be one of their smaller claims.

    I simple case of whiplash and suddenly they would be shelling out twice as much. I pay so much for my car insurance I'd like to think they would sort someone out with a new bike if it came to it.
  • wishitwasallflat
    wishitwasallflat Posts: 2,927
    Chris Bass wrote:
    Just to say that the solicitor is from leigh day and they have been really good throughout the process, they respond to email very quickly and give a good level of detail in their responses . I guess the advice I have been given is based on their previous dealings with insurers.

    I'm not after a brand new bike just for the sake of it, I wasn't considering changing my bike before the incident and unless someone happens to be selling the same bike, same condition, same size then what am I meant to do? either buy a worse new bike or a less suitable secondhand one. As far as I see it, as the driver has admitted full liability I shouldn't be any worse off after the incident, and I get the feeling I am going to be.

    That's the point you shouldn't be and if the drivers insurers insist on this then let them find a range of people selling the same bike, same condition, same size exactly matching yours and you will be happy to consider choosing one. Otherwise stumpup for the replacement parts and negotiate a rate for betterment - can't believe Leigh Day won't play it that way.

    I wouldn't do it myself and wouldn't advocate anyone doing it on an open forum - but you do know that some people bump up the new costs and/or add items to cover the betterment reduction they know they will get (often 10% per year) so they end up with a fair settlement don't you?
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    As others have said this is the legal position. You cannot be better off from the deal than you were at the start. They are entitled to reduce the value for the period of use or likely re-sale. You don't have to find the exact model, just something that approximates the value. Also the retailer can give you a shop retail valuation of your second hand bike, which will be more than you could sell it for.

    You wont get anywhere arguing - unless you want a judge to rule and he'll probably not award costs if you take it to trial on this point. That will leave you exposed to your own legal costs as they wont be covered by insurance.

    Legally its seen as a piece of kit that wears out. Don't forget to take account of upgrades (even just tyres) in your valuation.

    You are entitled to base your valuation on something similar if you cannot replace your bike for the used valuation. The obligation is the replacement value.
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    You may have bought your bike for £1,000 but now after all the wear and tear it's only worth £500, so paying out the difference to get a new bike seems fair, but, it's not like anyone who gets hit was likely planning to or wanting to shell out the difference for a new bike anyway, so new may well be better but you're still out of pocket through no fault of your own.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    lawrences wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    It's fair, you can't expect a complete new replacement for something that is used beyond a certain time scale unless using your own new for old policy. Sooner or later a gap insurer is going to start covering cycles which would help in claims like these.
    Equally you shouldn't be left out of pocket especially when the accident was not his fault. A new bike is a tiny amount of cash to an insurance company I don't get why they don't just pay up.

    Unfortunately that is how insurance works for 3rd party cover. They will only award costs for the value of the item lost and not to replace it with a new one. For insurers to offer a full new for old for everything, we'd all be paying premiums none of us could afford.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    But I think that's to try and apply a car based model to bicycles. As the second hand car market is very different, most cars will be sold on the second hand market at some point in their existance so whatever the make, specification, milage etc there will likely be a car available somewhere, even if it's just for comparison purposes, there's even online tools to price up the value of your car.

    This does not apply to bicycles in the same way.
  • arthur_scrimshaw
    arthur_scrimshaw Posts: 2,596
    If you can't find the equivalent second hand bike why not try costing it by the value of second hand parts (with an equivalent frame if the original isn't available) that should bump up the price nicely. Then buy a new bike with the result.
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    You can value several ways:
    1. New price less benefit of use
    2. second hand value based on price of this bike in this condition/age.
    3. cost of an equivalent replacement

    Bikes depreciate fairly slowly, so 1 is not going to work very well. 3 is probably the best option and gives you the chance to source up a model.
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  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    But I think that's to try and apply a car based model to bicycles. As the second hand car market is very different, most cars will be sold on the second hand market at some point in their existance so whatever the make, specification, milage etc there will likely be a car available somewhere, even if it's just for comparison purposes, there's even online tools to price up the value of your car.

    This does not apply to bicycles in the same way.

    Unless you have your own insurance which covers new for old, you won't get it out of a 3rd party insurer. You could possibly make a claim on your own insurance and leave them to attempt to claim it back from the 3rd party insurer as a covered expense.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    This is nothing to do with insurance. It is entirely due to basic legal concepts and the findings of courts over decades via decided cases.

    You will get nowhere arguing new for old. A court will not order you to be put in a better place than you were to start. You may be able to negotiate some small enhancement due to lack of availability of similar bikes, but that's it.
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    In reality it's the only way it could work, but in practice it could be crushing. As for most people their car / bike is worth far more to them than it's monetary value, but at any moment you could have your car / bike taken off you and it's cash value given to you instead.

    It's the only 'fair' way, but it basically adds insult to injury.
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    You can always try a claim for the emotional distress ;)
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