Does this seem fair?

chris_bass
chris_bass Posts: 4,913
edited February 2014 in Road general
So I'm am waiting settlement for a claim after I was hit by a driver and for bike part of the claim the solicitor has said:

"The legal stance is that you need to be put back in to the position you were prior to the accident which is your case means that the insurers need to provide you with sufficient funds to enable to you to ‘in theory’ purchase a like for like bike to the one you had damaged, both in terms of components but also age, wear and tear etc. It is not the case that the insurers are obliged to provide you with funds to purchase a new bike.

Insurers want to see both the repair costs and the pre accident value before they make any payments, therefore simply going back without a PAV will just waste time."


The way I see it is unless someone happens to be selling a bike like mine in the right size and the same condition I'm only ever going to be worse off, either buying a worse second hand bike or having to fork out the extra to get a new one.
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Comments

  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    Not fair - but very standard unless you pay more for new for old cover...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Not at all fair and, as far as I can tell from reading on here, a common tactic used by insurers to reduce their payout. As you've rightly pointed out, the chances of being able to find a suitable replacement (size, condition, etc) are going to be slim. You should point out that if that's the route to be taken then you'd also like to be compensated for the time, effort and inconvenience of sourcing the replacement yourself. It wouldn't surprise me at all that the cost of this would be approximately the same as the difference between the cost of a new bike and the value of your old bike prior to the accident ;)
  • ddraver wrote:
    ...unless you pay more for new for old cover...
    Sounds to me like someone else's insurance is paying so this shouldn't be relevant. Could have misread it though...
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    ddraver wrote:
    Not fair - but very standard unless you pay more for new for old cover...

    But in this case, the claim is against the other driver. What Chris has done in terms of his insurance conditions is surely irrelevant?

    I guess you could suggest they pay for a hire bike until a suitable replacement becomes available. That might focus their attention......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Pre Accident Value is pretty subjective.
    On the basis you should not be left "worse off" - have a look around second hand ads and print off (PDF) any that match or just exceed your make/model & groupset of bike damaged.

    Of course, there probably won't be any - and even if there are, how can you be assured that the condition of the second hand bicycle is up to the standard yours was in.

    Another thing to consider is frame warranty - if you had your damaged bike from new and it had manufacturer warranty on it - that is an asset (to you) - usually these warranties are not transferable - so a secondhand bike will not come with that frame warranty - so you need a value for that ...

    Which bike was it?
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Whose solicitor? Yours or theirs?

    Come up with a fair solution that you are happy with and put it to them.
    Tell them they have 24 hours to agree or you will go to one of those no win, no fee ads in the cycling mags.

    Thats what I did and they called back within the hour saying cheque was in the post.

    I would not even consider second hand unless your bike was originally and/or you would prefer that.
  • It is fair, I think the best course of action would be to go to a bike shop... they should be able to give you an evaluation acceptable for the insurer and of course you imply that you will be spending your cheque in the shop, so they have all the interest to pump it up a bit, which is what you want

    Everybody happy
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  • Rolf F wrote:

    I guess you could suggest they pay for a hire bike until a suitable replacement becomes available. That might focus their attention......

    +1

    It is fair as long they do all the running around sourcing the replacement and offer you an alternative in the meantime: not something they will be prepared to do so the compromise is you get a new bike.
  • chris_bass
    chris_bass Posts: 4,913
    It was from my solicitor (through british cycling), it is a claim against the drivers insurance as she has admitted full liability (she couldnt really question it as I had witnesses saying she wasnt even looking forwards when she hit me and I wasn't moving at the time!)

    I have gone to the bike shop who have confirmed they would suggest the bike is written off, I have today asked them for a pre accident value, so hopefully it will be ok.

    It was a cube agreee gtc pro, full ultegra which is the next model up these days so to get a full carbon full ultegra bike is going to cost more than the £1300 I paid for it new anyway!
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    If it was new when you got it then pre accident value is whatever it (or equivalent/better current model) costs new now!

    Unless they have access to a time machine then there is no other way of fairly replacing it if it is a write off.
  • Carbonator wrote:
    If it was new when you got it then pre accident value is whatever it (or equivalent/better current model) costs new now!

    Unless they have access to a time machine then there is no other way of fairly replacing it if it is a write off.

    You (the OP) doesn't have to accept any offer of course. The 'theoretical value' thing sounds like nonsense. I've heard that been tried on with car insurance claims and the company has backed off when asked to actually show examples of cars which are that make, model, specification, milage etc available for that price.

    The only realistic thing for bikes is to replace with new.
  • JimboM
    JimboM Posts: 380
    This happened to a friend of mine and his solicitor's suggestion was that the best course of action would be to persue a personal injury claim and use this to make up the shortfall for replacing the bike. The claim took about a year to come through but he ended up being able to upgrade his bike and replace the damaged clothing etc.

    Would have been much simpler if the insurance had provided a like for like replacement at the outset and it would have been cheaper for them - hopefully one day they will wake up and realise that if they treat people farily then it will actually work out better for all involved.
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Could not agree more.
    If they do not want to be fair about it then adopt their morals and srcew them over.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    But what is fair?

    My Allez from 2011 was an entry level model, has 2300 STIs and a carbon fork ... I tried selling it (half heartedly) and didn't get a bite at £350 (I'm now keeping it) - so you can probably buy a similar secondhand bike at that age for ~£200-250 ..
    But - that bike is worth more than £250 to me - as I bought it new it still has a frame warranty and I know it's (lack of) crash history.
    If I tried to replace that with the current entry level Allez (£500) I'd get aluminium forks - clearly a "downgrade" - So I'd need get an Allez Sport (£580) to match the frame spec - but to match the colour - well part of it - I'd have to go for the 2014 version @ £750 ...

    Plenty on eBay for 1/2 that price - but without any assurances or frame warranty ...


    The Value of an item is not necessarily what you can buy/sell it for ...
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    If you buy a £1000 bike its always a £1000 bike to you.

    It only loses value when you sell it.
  • Bozman
    Bozman Posts: 2,518
    I got full retail value minus wear and tear which was 15%. They let me keep the bike and told me to strip it and flog the bits on eBay, so in the end I was better off by quite a way.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,324
    Seems like the way car insurance works to me, and it is coming off a car policy. If you have an accident in a car the car is valued as a secondhand car, not a new car. If the car is written off you don't get the new value. If your car is a particularly good example you may be able to negotiate the value upwards slightly, but you will be out of pocket. Admittedly they would be paying for a courtesy car until the claim is settled so you should be within your rights to ask for hire costs in the interim.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Veronese68 wrote:
    Seems like the way car insurance works to me, and it is coming off a car policy. If you have an accident in a car the car is valued as a secondhand car, not a new car. If the car is written off you don't get the new value. If your car is a particularly good example you may be able to negotiate the value upwards slightly, but you will be out of pocket. Admittedly they would be paying for a courtesy car until the claim is settled so you should be within your rights to ask for hire costs in the interim.

    I know a magistrate whose wife was involved in an accident where her car was written off - it was an unusual variant, low mileage and clean example of that marque - the insurance co tried to pay them the cost to replace that car with one from the same year - but failed to take into account the variant, or clean condition ...
    He negotiated the settlement back up to a sum that allowed them to replace the car for an equivalent - several times what they initially offered ...
  • It is fair, I think the best course of action would be to go to a bike shop... they should be able to give you an evaluation acceptable for the insurer and of course you imply that you will be spending your cheque in the shop, so they have all the interest to pump it up a bit, which is what you want

    Everybody happy

    This is why it pays (excuse the pun) to become a known face at your LBS. Mine was quite happy to help me out with an evaluation.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,324
    Slowbike wrote:
    Veronese68 wrote:
    Seems like the way car insurance works to me, and it is coming off a car policy. If you have an accident in a car the car is valued as a secondhand car, not a new car. If the car is written off you don't get the new value. If your car is a particularly good example you may be able to negotiate the value upwards slightly, but you will be out of pocket. Admittedly they would be paying for a courtesy car until the claim is settled so you should be within your rights to ask for hire costs in the interim.

    I know a magistrate whose wife was involved in an accident where her car was written off - it was an unusual variant, low mileage and clean example of that marque - the insurance co tried to pay them the cost to replace that car with one from the same year - but failed to take into account the variant, or clean condition ...
    He negotiated the settlement back up to a sum that allowed them to replace the car for an equivalent - several times what they initially offered ...
    Yes, it is common to get agreed value insurance on classic cars and such like as the book value would not come anywhere near the amount of money spent on a lot of them. Without an agreed value it is possible to negotiate, but you have to prove that it was worth more than book.
  • chris_bass
    chris_bass Posts: 4,913
    Slowbike wrote:
    Veronese68 wrote:
    Seems like the way car insurance works to me, and it is coming off a car policy. If you have an accident in a car the car is valued as a secondhand car, not a new car. If the car is written off you don't get the new value. If your car is a particularly good example you may be able to negotiate the value upwards slightly, but you will be out of pocket. Admittedly they would be paying for a courtesy car until the claim is settled so you should be within your rights to ask for hire costs in the interim.

    I know a magistrate whose wife was involved in an accident where her car was written off - it was an unusual variant, low mileage and clean example of that marque - the insurance co tried to pay them the cost to replace that car with one from the same year - but failed to take into account the variant, or clean condition ...
    He negotiated the settlement back up to a sum that allowed them to replace the car for an equivalent - several times what they initially offered ...

    do you have their number?!
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Chris Bass wrote:
    do you have their number?!
    I used to work with him ...
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Veronese68 wrote:
    Seems like the way car insurance works to me, and it is coming off a car policy. If you have an accident in a car the car is valued as a secondhand car, not a new car. If the car is written off you don't get the new value. If your car is a particularly good example you may be able to negotiate the value upwards slightly, but you will be out of pocket. Admittedly they would be paying for a courtesy car until the claim is settled so you should be within your rights to ask for hire costs in the interim.

    I thought you claimed off your own insurance and they got it back from the third parties insurer?

    You can insure your car to get full replacement value, but as cyclists do not have fully comp insurance it would not work the same.

    The OP should get a new bike and the third parties insurer should be thankful their policy holder did not hit a Lamborghini!
  • I just recently got a settlement for damage to my bike and clothing in an accident similar to yours where liability was not in doubt. I expected their insurers to reduce the payment to account for betterment (basically deducting something for wear and tear - I believe 10% deprecation per year of use is normal in the industry) but they paid new cost prices. Hold out for that or tell them if they find you an exact replacement of exact same age, mileage and usage you may consider it. No stuff that tell them to beat it and get a claims company to get you new cost plus extra for personal injury if they refuse to pay for new costs. Remember accident victims such as your self having delayed onset of panic attacks at similar road layouts to the site of the accident is a well known phenomena - I am sure many personal injury lawyers will be familiar with that and happy to press a claim on that basis for you!
  • Carbonator wrote:
    I thought you claimed off your own insurance and they got it back from the third parties insurer?

    You can insure your car to get full replacement value, but as cyclists do not have fully comp insurance it would not work the same.

    The OP should get a new bike and the third parties insurer should be thankful their policy holder did not hit a Lamborghini!

    That's not a wise way to do it as it registers a claim on your own insurance policy. My insurers told me that could affect future premiums as it showed a risk. Its better to make a claim against their insurance direct. A lawyer can do it for your or do it yourself. If there's no personal injury component it's not that hard you just need to make a statement of loss and/or include repair estimate from a lbs you trust and submit. I reckon if there is personal injury then leave it to the claims companies to pursue on your behalf.
  • You can do it either way, sometimes if it's a difficult and disputed claim you might want to claim via your own company especially if you have legal cover. However if it's straightforward you can claim via the other drivers insurance.

    You have to be careful about your record however as I had a no fault claim (someone ran into my car when parked) and I told my insurance company "for information" and they told me it was down as 'no-fault' then a couple of years later when moving company they said I had an at-fault claim on my record.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    What's bothering me is that a Solicitor who the OP was referred to via BC (through BC membership) is suggesting the OP go through all this crap ...
  • Ber Nard
    Ber Nard Posts: 827
    If the bike's a named item on an insurance policy, would the policy be proof of its pre-accident value?

    Rob
  • Slowbike wrote:
    What's bothering me is that a Solicitor who the OP was referred to via BC (through BC membership) is suggesting the OP go through all this crap ...

    +1 Previous to this post I had heard only good things about BC solicitors - a guy at work had a bad accident and when I had mine he recommended BC. His BC solicitor was from Leigh Day and he said they were brilliant. I joined BC on the strength of that! While my accident was straightforward and I did it all myself I didn't enjoy it and wouldn't want to ever have to again (especially if it was a complex case and/or had injuries involved).
  • Of course you could make a list of the components and get your "valuation" from ebay as it is the only way to price a custom bike.

    Plus labour to assemble if of course.I really cannot see a problem with getting the valuation to £350 or so.