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Any Campag EPS Guru's on here?

VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
edited February 2014 in Workshop
I run Super Record EPS on one of my C59's that works perfect, originally it had Record EPS on which I moved to my M10, in it's previous installation on the C59 and prior to that on the CX-1 it worked perfect.

After building the M10 a few weeks later it lost it's settings and the green battery light stayed on all the time, I reset the whole lot by disconnecting and then resetting and it worked fine for a day or two then the same thing happened again, repeated the thing again after checking all the connections and all fine.

I figured that perhaps there might be something wrong with the controls in the battery module which contains the brains and as I had a spare one I reconnected and reset the whole thing.

Bingo, everything worked and all seemed fine, as a precaution I left the magnet in the module until I would next ride it.

This week I have done a few roller sessions, so I thought great I'd give it a testing, twice this week it worked fine, used it tonight and then left the bike in the hallway whilst I had some tea, came back to see the dreaded green light on in the battery again, so something is obviously going wrong with the settings.

I figure it can't be the front or rear mech as they just have a motor in and not a lot else and on the rollers I don't change gears a lot, so that was why I originally changed the Battery module.

As this has now happened again, I'm starting to wonder if it is the interface unit failing, perhaps there is a broken lead to the shifters or something like that that is causing it to short out.

Naturally as I am home trained and not Campag trained there is no warranty on the units which I knew from the outset.

Anyone got any ideas?
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Posts

  • ivanoileivanoile Posts: 202
    I have no idea,but wasn't somewhere on this forum a guy from Campagnolo? Maybe he knows a bit about this problem.
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    If you do a google there is a diagnostic page/pages and help line .
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Cheers Lads for your help.

    I originally thought it could be the rear mech and double checked and triple checked the cables.

    The problem arises when the bike is stationary after standing for a while, so I'm a little curious if it is the rear mech as all that is is a motor, there isn't anything really complicated about it, but I stand to be corrected.

    Someone was selling a new control unit for £80 on fleabay so I thought that might be a cheaper option than buying a rear mech and although a PITA has got to be worth it as I may need one in the future for a spare set of SR EPS shifters that I have.

    The green light does stay on followed by a bleeping tone if you try to change gear, so again indicating that it could be the rear mech...hmm totally confused.
  • smidsysmidsy Posts: 5,273
    The solution is in 3 easy steps:

    1. Smash it with an axe and throw it in nextdoors garden.

    2. Drink herbal tea and then

    3. Fit a mechanical gearshift system - simples innit"!
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • big_pbig_p Posts: 565
    I would be very surprised if the rear mech didn't have some sort of hall sensor in it to report it's position back to the brain, even if it's part of the motor, there will be on in there.
    I know eps uses a digital controller area network that enables the all of the components to report back to the ecu, I would be having a real close look at the rear mech to see if there is any obvious sign's of wear of excess movement.
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Thanks Big P.

    This particular groups set has only done about 1000 miles and at least 500 of the that was on the turbo.

    What puzzles me is why does it only go wrong when left and not when you are riding and changing gear?
  • big_pbig_p Posts: 565
    Has the rear mech come un hooked, maybe you knocked it against the clamps on the turbo. I think on the eps you just grab the mech and snap it back onto the linear motor.
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    I have unhooked it a couple of times just so that I was aware of the limp home mode in case it was needed, but it is firmly clipped back into place.
  • Velonutter wrote:
    Thanks Big P.

    This particular groups set has only done about 1000 miles and at least 500 of the that was on the turbo.

    What puzzles me is why does it only go wrong when left and not when you are riding and changing gear?

    Is this the groupset you were trying to convince me to buy becuase it was great? :?
  • You could drop an email/call Velotech for advice http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk/campagnolo.shtml
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Ugo, thanks, just a minor hiccup ;-)

    thegreatdivide Ta, think it might be an idea
  • Hi Velonutter, we had a similar issue quite recently here at base. The bad news is, I suspect the Power Unit ... hard to tell by remote control as it were, without the bike in front of me, but here goes:

    1. It looks as if you have verified all of the connections and the cabling is all in good condition (we do see guys using zip ties on the cables in the tubes to stop teh rattling which is fine but if they are pulled up too tight this can damage the multicore inside and give intermittent issues). Unplugging and replugging will generally clean the connectors adequately (so long as your hands are grease free and you aren't doing it in the rain!).

    2. You don't say explicitly, but in transferring the Power Units I am assuming that you have done a zero-setting and that the bike enters the zero-setting mode correctly and sets up with no issues. It *might* be worth a zero-set if not, just to be sure and eliminate that from our standard check-list. This also comes as close as we can to eliminating a lever-based problem (although I do see that you say the problem manifested itself after the bike had worked OK for a period, so it's not an absolute).

    3. This brings us then to the PU or the RD as the most likely culprits. A green indicator is *normally* an RD-based problem, but we have seen very, very few of those. There *is* a sensor - the position resolver - in the RD but we've never (certainly not in the UK) seen a problem with that. As a double check (and I know it's a faff), it might be worthwhile to swap the RDs between your bikes - you know the one on the C59 is behaving, so that will eliminate or indicate the RD as the culprit.

    4. If the second RD displays the same behaviour, it looks as if it may be the PU. Can you let us know the serial numbers on both the PUs that you have tried so we can see if there is a possible batch fault? It's not likely but equally, I can't see why you might have a problem with two PUs, unless I am wrong about the RD. The serial numbers are on the bottom of the PU, adjacent to the small bar-code / QR code - the one we need is the bottom of the three number series, it'll start 1200 or 1300 ... if there are any other markings on the bottom of the PU, it would be useful to have those too - some prototype / evaluation systems that went out to teams have found their way into the market and it's even possible that so have some mature systems originally destined for pro teams (nothing much surprises me in that respect ...) and they may have different firmware versions to those that are fully commercialised. We can generally tell from the serial number, but more info is better than less!

    I see what you say about this being a home installation but I will still do my best to help you as far as I can - I have some lattitude.

    PM me or drop me an email, velotechcycling_at_aim_dot_com

    All the Best
    Graeme
    Velotech Cycling Ltd, Main Campagnolo SC, UK
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Cheers Graham, Brilliant reply.

    I'll work on the info tomorrow, whereabouts are you based as I could run the bike up to you if it helps?

    I know what you mean about the small amount of rattling cables, but mine aren't zipped together.

    The only way I could see to reset the complete units was to unplug everything as there didn't appear to be a zero rest in the downloadable manuals?
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,189
    That's a great response. I love these fora!

    And Velotech are in Chesterton, Staffs.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
  • OK, Zero set procedure:

    This is the 100% reset, so you are going to remove all of the set-up info from the EPS and re-teach it what it needs to apply to the software, to know where each sprocket is.

    So, to clarify what I am going to call things as it'll speed the typing up ...
    L2 is the lever just behind the brake lever
    L3 is the thumb lever
    MB is the mode button.
    RH and LH are hopefully self explanatory (!) but one set of definitions we all suffer with -
    Sprocket 11 is the smallest cog at the rear
    Sprocket 1 the biggest cog at the rear
    "upshifting" is coming towards sprocket 11 at the rear
    "downshifting" is going towards sprocket 1 at the rear.
    Upshifting at the front is coming up to the big chainring from the small
    Downshifting at the front, the reverse.

    I went through all of that as especially where shifting directions are concerned, descriptive conventions differ - in Italy they do it all the other way around and Campag's English Language videos do it all the Italian way ... in the UK and the US I think the descriptions I have used above are generally better understood.

    I am assuming you know where the two MBs are - one just behind L3 on each side, either one can be short-pressed to check battery charge state.

    Check the battery state - you can do a zero set in any state (except flat, obviously) but it's best to check before you start.

    Put the magnet back into the PU and leave it in for around 40 sec to fully power the system down and allow the internal capacitance to dissipate. This hard-resets the chip.

    Withdraw the magnet and look for a green flash at the PU - this indicates that there is power enough to operate the diagnostics and that the diagnostic software is active.

    Operate both L2 and L3 on both levers - this verifies that there are no connection faults - if there are the diagnostics will generally tell you. the only thing they can't tell you is if an interface-to-lever cable is cut through or the lever is completely unplugged.

    1st difference from the published instructions & for safety - put the bike on the big chainring (if possible) and sprocket 11. Disengage the RD from the electronics (Ride Back Home mode) and push down the cassette as you are turning the pedals to check that the low gear limit screw is correctly set - we do this now because in zero-set mode, the electronic limiters are not active - they can't be, because we haven't told the system where the sprockets are relative to the gear hanger yet.

    Re-engage the RD and shift down electronically as far as you can, hopefully to sprocket 1.

    Press both MB simultaneously (and it does have to be simultaneous) and hold - you will get a blue LED at the Interface after about 15 sec. You are now in zero-set mode and must complete the set-up routine for either front or rear mech before the system will allow you to exit. The system will now "forget" all previous settings for whichever mech you now move.

    To set the RD ...
    Press and hold L3 as you turn the pedals and the RD will upshift steplessly. Be careful - the upper limit is no longer set and you can drop the chain right off the top of the cassette & the RD moves quicker, the longer you hold the lever down.

    Before you get to the second-to-top sprocket (sprocket 10), release lever 3 then using small "dabs" on lever three, drop the chain onto sprocket 10.

    Using short presses on L2 and L3 to move the RD "up" or "down" in small increments, adjust the run of the chain over the sprocket until you get a the cleanest possible chain passage. The top jockey should be directly under sprocket 10 when viewed from the back when you have this right but the sound of the chain running on the sprocket will tell you a lot, too.

    Once you are happy, short-press the RH MB. On release, the LED on the Interface will turn white.

    Use L2 to move the chain down to sprocket 2 (second to biggest). Repeat the process of using L2 & L3 to set the chain as smoothly over sprocket 2 as you can. Again, the top jockey should be directly under the sprocket when viewed from behind.

    Once you are happy with this position, short press the RH MB. The LED on the Interface will flash blue. When it stops flashing, the system will "know" where all 11 sprockets are - you can then verify the shift. The first movement of L2 or L3 may not shift the gear (depends on the software version) but after that, the shifting should behave normally.

    Zero setting on the front is a similar procedure.

    Drop the chain to the inside ring (if you can) and run it over sprocket 1 at the rear.

    Enter zero-set mode by pressing both MBs at the same time & holding until the blue LED lights.

    Use LH L2 and L3 to position the FD so that with the chain on the small ring, the gap behind the chain and in front of the inner cage plate of the FD is around 0.5 to 1mm.

    Turn the pedals and make sure that the chain doesn't scrape the FD cage due to the chain rocking on the teeth of the inner ring.

    Once you are happy with that, short-press the LH MB. THe Interface LED will flash blue. Once it stops flashing, that's the FD set up. Check the shift, holding the LH L2 over for a couple of pedal revs just to verify that the RH crank doesn't touch the outer cage plate of the FD when in full "overshift" position.

    Check all the shift combinations.

    <PHEW> ... that's it.

    It takes a long time to read, longer to type, but only a couple of minutes or less, to do.

    HTH .... but I'll see you Friday anyway, Velonutter!
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Thanks GFK, grateful for the time you took to reply.

    Yep I must have been doing the zero reset without knowing it was the full reset. I was also disconnecting all of the connections prior to resetting.

    The only thing I hadn't been doing was setting it into limp home mode, but I was lucky as I was able to set it correctly (more luck than judgement).

    I'll leave it as it is until I see you on Friday, then you can make your judgement.

    Thanks once again :-) 8)
  • gfk_velo wrote:
    OK, Zero set procedure:

    This is the 100% reset, so you are going to remove all of the set-up info from the EPS and re-teach it what it needs to apply to the software, to know where each sprocket is.

    So, to clarify what I am going to call things as it'll speed the typing up ...
    L2 is the lever just behind the brake lever
    L3 is the thumb lever
    MB is the mode button.
    RH and LH are hopefully self explanatory (!) but one set of definitions we all suffer with -
    Sprocket 11 is the smallest cog at the rear
    Sprocket 1 the biggest cog at the rear
    "upshifting" is coming towards sprocket 11 at the rear
    "downshifting" is going towards sprocket 1 at the rear.
    Upshifting at the front is coming up to the big chainring from the small
    Downshifting at the front, the reverse.

    I went through all of that as especially where shifting directions are concerned, descriptive conventions differ - in Italy they do it all the other way around and Campag's English Language videos do it all the Italian way ... in the UK and the US I think the descriptions I have used above are generally better understood.

    I am assuming you know where the two MBs are - one just behind L3 on each side, either one can be short-pressed to check battery charge state.

    Check the battery state - you can do a zero set in any state (except flat, obviously) but it's best to check before you start.

    Put the magnet back into the PU and leave it in for around 40 sec to fully power the system down and allow the internal capacitance to dissipate. This hard-resets the chip.

    Withdraw the magnet and look for a green flash at the PU - this indicates that there is power enough to operate the diagnostics and that the diagnostic software is active.

    Operate both L2 and L3 on both levers - this verifies that there are no connection faults - if there are the diagnostics will generally tell you. the only thing they can't tell you is if an interface-to-lever cable is cut through or the lever is completely unplugged.

    1st difference from the published instructions & for safety - put the bike on the big chainring (if possible) and sprocket 11. Disengage the RD from the electronics (Ride Back Home mode) and push down the cassette as you are turning the pedals to check that the low gear limit screw is correctly set - we do this now because in zero-set mode, the electronic limiters are not active - they can't be, because we haven't told the system where the sprockets are relative to the gear hanger yet.

    Re-engage the RD and shift down electronically as far as you can, hopefully to sprocket 1.

    Press both MB simultaneously (and it does have to be simultaneous) and hold - you will get a blue LED at the Interface after about 15 sec. You are now in zero-set mode and must complete the set-up routine for either front or rear mech before the system will allow you to exit. The system will now "forget" all previous settings for whichever mech you now move.

    To set the RD ...
    Press and hold L3 as you turn the pedals and the RD will upshift steplessly. Be careful - the upper limit is no longer set and you can drop the chain right off the top of the cassette & the RD moves quicker, the longer you hold the lever down.

    Before you get to the second-to-top sprocket (sprocket 10), release lever 3 then using small "dabs" on lever three, drop the chain onto sprocket 10.

    Using short presses on L2 and L3 to move the RD "up" or "down" in small increments, adjust the run of the chain over the sprocket until you get a the cleanest possible chain passage. The top jockey should be directly under sprocket 10 when viewed from the back when you have this right but the sound of the chain running on the sprocket will tell you a lot, too.

    Once you are happy, short-press the RH MB. On release, the LED on the Interface will turn white.

    Use L2 to move the chain down to sprocket 2 (second to biggest). Repeat the process of using L2 & L3 to set the chain as smoothly over sprocket 2 as you can. Again, the top jockey should be directly under the sprocket when viewed from behind.

    Once you are happy with this position, short press the RH MB. The LED on the Interface will flash blue. When it stops flashing, the system will "know" where all 11 sprockets are - you can then verify the shift. The first movement of L2 or L3 may not shift the gear (depends on the software version) but after that, the shifting should behave normally.

    Zero setting on the front is a similar procedure.

    Drop the chain to the inside ring (if you can) and run it over sprocket 1 at the rear.

    Enter zero-set mode by pressing both MBs at the same time & holding until the blue LED lights.

    Use LH L2 and L3 to position the FD so that with the chain on the small ring, the gap behind the chain and in front of the inner cage plate of the FD is around 0.5 to 1mm.

    Turn the pedals and make sure that the chain doesn't scrape the FD cage due to the chain rocking on the teeth of the inner ring.

    Once you are happy with that, short-press the LH MB. THe Interface LED will flash blue. Once it stops flashing, that's the FD set up. Check the shift, holding the LH L2 over for a couple of pedal revs just to verify that the RH crank doesn't touch the outer cage plate of the FD when in full "overshift" position.

    Check all the shift combinations.

    <PHEW> ... that's it.

    It takes a long time to read, longer to type, but only a couple of minutes or less, to do.

    HTH .... but I'll see you Friday anyway, Velonutter!

    Wow! I've just started fitting Record EPS for the first time and although I've studied the manual and the training videos this is very, very handy indeed. Many thanks :-)
  • markyonemarkyone Posts: 1,051
    How did you get on john with graham?
    Colnago c60 Eps super record 11
    Pinarello F8 with sram etap
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    markyone wrote:
    How did you get on john with graham?

    Not going til Friday Night Mark
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Well Graeme from Velotech Cycling and I finally got together yesterday afternoon, what an absolutely lovely bloke, his knowledge and experience is beyond anybody else I know with regards to Campag and Campag EPS, so much so that I shall be booking for one of his EPS Courses.

    The problem appears to be quite unique and one that Graeme hasn't experienced before, he very kindly loaned me one of his power units and is sending my one under warranty back to Vicenza, the unit failed to factory reset despite using all the knowledge that he has.

    Graeme has asked me to use the loan unit as much as I can and see if the problem reoccurs indicating that some other part of the system is causing the problem.

    After 4 hours Graeme refitted all of the loan unit electrics and on a miserable wet windy Saturday afternoon I couldn't think of a more enjoyable way to pass the time. What surprised me was that Graeme had travelled all the way from Milton Keynes to Stoke just because he has made a promise to help sort my problem out, Top Bloke, cheers Graeme 8) :mrgreen:
  • Velonutter wrote:
    Well Graeme from Velotech Cycling and I finally got together yesterday afternoon, what an absolutely lovely bloke, his knowledge and experience is beyond anybody else I know with regards to Campag and Campag EPS, so much so that I shall be booking for one of his EPS Courses.

    The problem appears to be quite unique and one that Graeme hasn't experienced before, he very kindly loaned me one of his power units and is sending my one under warranty back to Vicenza, the unit failed to factory reset despite using all the knowledge that he has.

    Graeme has asked me to use the loan unit as much as I can and see if the problem reoccurs indicating that some other part of the system is causing the problem.

    After 4 hours Graeme refitted all of the loan unit electrics and on a miserable wet windy Saturday afternoon I couldn't think of a more enjoyable time to pass the time. What surprised me was that Graeme had travelled all the way from Milton Keynes to Stoke just because he has made a promise to help sort my problem out, Top Bloke, cheers Graeme 8) :mrgreen:

    Top bloke indeed...

    SO this IS the groupset you said it's great and I should buy then... :wink:

    I think I'll stick to my 2 pounds worth of trusty steel cable
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Ugo, have you ever had a problem with mechanical? Problems arise, but it is how the problem is dealt with that helps resolve the issue.
  • Velonutter wrote:
    Ugo, have you ever had a problem with mechanical? Problems arise, but it is how the problem is dealt with that helps resolve the issue.

    In fairness no... I used to fray cables when I was on Shimano 105... the design of the levers was/is cable-fraying prone... but that only required new cables every year or so.
    External bearings bottom brackets... well I've had my share of mixed luck with those... but parts that stop working altogether out of the blue no, never... :roll:
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    As an Italian you need to give your mouth a really good wash out with bleach, mentioning the word shim..... and then compounding it by saying that you actually used it!!! lol
  • Velonutter wrote:
    As an Italian you need to give your mouth a really good wash out with bleach, mentioning the word shim..... and then compounding it by saying that you actually used it!!! lol

    Well, the Campagnolo I can afford is made in Romania these days... but I do run an almost Campagnolo bike... except for the Dura Ace 7410 chainset, the Ultegra top pull FD and the Ultegra 9 speed cassette and chain... then there is the Shift Mate of course...
    In fact only the Ergos and RD are Campagnolo... ops... oh, and the seatpost is a Chorus Steel one :lol:

    fugio_zpsad4b8194.jpg
  • VelonutterVelonutter Posts: 4,749 Lives Here
    Arrhhh Ugo, my eyes....nooooo, your bike is infected with a virus, I'm scarred forever :shock: :shock: :shock: :(:cry: :roll:
  • Velonutter wrote:
    Arrhhh Ugo, my eyes....nooooo, your bike is infected with a virus, I'm scarred forever :shock: :shock: :shock: :(:cry: :roll:

    I understand... it's annoying to see a Frankenstein bike that actually works flawlessly... :mrgreen:

    My wife's bike is far worse... the range of components spans from 1950 to modern days... since the photo I have sawed the bars and made them into bull horns... :lol: I have used it a couple of times in London... it's a pretty plush ride

    DSC_0021.jpg
  • Well, first, a million thanks to John for his kind words - I have only just now stopped blushing enough to type :-)

    Ugo - the failure that John had is really, really rare - it's on a level with a catastrophic frame failure for frequency.

    Before John came up I had a chat with my opposite number in the Service Dept. in Italy and then with the project leader on EPS and they both confirmed, one from a warranty / servicing perspective and one from an R and D perspective that they had not encountered this issue before - hence backing one of John's two units to the factory for analysis and warranty and the offer to take his second one - repaired, so not warranty-able, unfortunately - to the factory at the end of the month to see if they can divine where the problem lays.

    It's always dangerous to use one's own experience as an example, doubly so for me because the temptation is always for people to say "well, he would say that, wouldn't he ..." but I have used EPS in all conditions from a pre-production stage up to the present (now running v2 Record) and have never had to so much as reset the system - other than when installing v2, obviously.

    All you have to remember, as with all this kind of kit, is that you are buying what you are buying - the bicycle equivalent of F1 kit - and it needs to be thought of as such.

    To use another example, if you are looking for a pair of training wheels to use in typical British winter conditions - don't buy Boras, they are not the product for the job (I actually had someone ask on another forum recently should he go for Boras or Fulcrum R-Zeros for this, so not such an unlikely scenario as you might imagine).

    In the same way, EPS, like Di2, has a target audience. It is more than reliable enough to use in professional racing (the Worlds, and the result, in 2013 are a pretty good demo of that) and just like mechanical equipment that occasionally fails, on average for 99.9% of the time it is reliable in less fraught circumstances - like anything, it has benefits, it has limitations and you just have to understand the extent of both and understand that one time in a thousand, things can go awry.
  • gfk_velo wrote:
    - like anything, it has benefits, it has limitations and you just have to understand the extent of both and understand that one time in a thousand, things can go awry.

    What is the benefit over the mechanical version?

    When the car industry embraced electronics, it did it for all the right reasons: better fuel efficiency, improved power output, improved safety in all areas... accidentally even electronic shifting (paddles and the likes) has been invented, but it's not very popular, as it's pointless
    When the bicycle industry embraced electronics it did it for... smoother shifting? Wouldn't have been better to concentrate on an ABS equivalent instead of wasting time on a battery that provides smoother shifting?
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